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UK Labour Party reportedly suspends 50 members over anti-Semitic, racist comments

Wiggen said:
Well, then that makes jew-baiting perfectly acceptable.:lamo
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So they are "self hating Jews"? So you actually think its impossible to be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So ignorant criticism of history of Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel is now anti-semitic? Isnt Zionism a foundation to the founding of Israel? So ignorantly criticizing the history of the Zionist movement is now anti-semitism? So I guess you must be on this side of the debate: "The head of Progress proposed rule changes in the Mirror which would put “a modern understanding of anti-Semitism” into the party. “It is not acceptable to use the term ‘Zionism’ as a term of abuse,” the article stated, arguing for people who did so to be expelled.".
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You admit that it's not criticism of Israel and you still don't admit to being wrong for claiming it is criticism of Israel. You're a lost cause.

Im still waiting you to explain to me how this graphic is anti-semitic....
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You mean after I've just explained to you why you're wrong for claiming it's criticism of Israel, which is what you yourself have claimed? Are you even aware of what is being discussed or do you make it up as you go?

:doh Dear god. Jeremy Newmark chairperson of the Jewish Labour Movement. Jewish Labour Movement is "affiliated with Israeli Labor Party and the World Zionist Organization". Was "chief executive of the Jewish Leadership Council, an anti-Palestinian lobbying group". the Jewish Labour Movement is literally a organization to promote Zionism in the UK. And also dont forget, "The same day Ken Livingstone was suspended from the party, BICOM appealed to the mob, posting a tweet with the words: “save your pitch fork for Corbyn.”
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Oh forgive me, I've meant amazing evidence, not just great.
Obviously you don't know what evidence means or how can one base an argument.
 
Apocalypse said:
You admit that it's not criticism of Israel and you still don't admit to being wrong for claiming it is criticism of Israel. You're a lost cause.
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So now your saying criticism of Zionism is anti-semitic?


You mean after I've just explained to you why you're wrong for claiming it's criticism of Israel, which is what you yourself have claimed? Are you even aware of what is being discussed or do you make it up as you go?
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Nope. Your claiming its anti-semitic and yet you have failed to explain how its anti-semitic.



Oh forgive me, I've meant amazing evidence, not just great.
Obviously you don't know what evidence means or how can one base an argument.
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:lamo Good god :doh
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So now your saying criticism of Zionism is anti-semitic?

Nope. Your claiming its anti-semitic and yet you have failed to explain how its anti-semitic.

:lamo Good god :doh
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At the end of the day, if they had a good argument, they wouldn't need to adopt this kind of thought policing in order to shut down debate. The whole premise is that it doesn't matter how carefully you tread on eggshells to word an argument, they know that in your heart you are an anti-semite. I was actually surprised, even in the context of how skewed the debate is among the 'political classes', at the way that the definition of anti-semitism that includes this thought policing has been adopted internationally.
 
William Rea said:
At the end of the day, if they had a good argument, they wouldn't need to adopt this kind of thought policing in order to shut down debate. The whole premise is that it doesn't matter how carefully you tread on eggshells to word an argument, they know that in your heart you are an anti-semite. I was actually surprised, even in the context of how skewed the debate is among the 'political classes', at the way that the definition of anti-semitism that includes this thought policing has been adopted internationally.
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It's pretty obvious who does and who doesn't have any good arguments, the belief that one can spread antisemitism however he likes to as long as he uses the words "Zionists" or "Israel" is one that is held by the antisemite alone and is not shared by the objective spectator. Using terms like "thought policing" and "political correctness" to cover that up and to claim that debates are being shut down by it is the oldest trick in the book for those who defend racist remarks/actions/opinions.

At the end of the day when judging what is actually being said no thinking human being can come to believe that claiming for example Hitler had supported Zionism is not a brutally antisemitic statement, no one but the people who support such statements - and that is where you lose the fight, on logic and common sense, things you should never ever attempt to work against.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So now your saying criticism of Zionism is anti-semitic?
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Suggesting Hitler had supported Zionism is definitely antisemitic, and I'm not 'saying' that but rather pointing the obvious out.

Nope. Your claiming its anti-semitic and yet you have failed to explain how its anti-semitic.
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If we are to be honest, although honesty is something you avoid like the plague, I didn't claim every single statement that was said by all these dozens of people was antisemitic, I was replying to your comment that it's all (and later the majority of it is) "criticism of Israel". You have clearly changed the subject once you realized you have lost the ability to maintain that claim. As I claimed several posts ago and as you now have recognized you were absolutely wrong and I've not seen any actual critcisim of Israel in any of these remarks, that was a lie and now you've changing the subject which is something those who are lying do so to avoid recognizing the fact that they are indeed, and not the other side, lying. In regards to the image you keep referring to however the belief that we should deport all of Israel's citizens away from their homeland is definitely antisemitic and that's a no-brainer for those of us who do not have an unexplainable impulse to defend such miserable comments.
 
Wiggen said:
Well, since you don't believe anti-Semitism exists or has ever existed, your remarks are hardly surprising. She sounds like just your kind of politician.
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Where on earth did you get that idea from? Anti-Semitism does exist, just as islmophobia, hating homosexuals and so on. However what is being discussed here is hardly anti-Semitism. The requirement is "hostility, prejudice and/or discrimination against Jews"... where is that in the sharing of a post suggesting moving Israel to the US? no where. Israel is a multi-cultural multi-religion state.
 
Wiggen said:
Embarrassing and insensitive. But then, that's you when Jews are the subject.
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Why dont you answer the question? What remembrance day in the UK are you talking about?
 
PeteEU said:
Official remembrance day of the Holocaust is in January.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Memorial_Day_(UK)

So again WHAT remembrance day are you talking about?
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Chagos isn't in the UK Pete, there are other holocaust memorial days. This may help you in future -

2016 Thursday, May 5
2017 Monday, April 24
2018 Thursday, April 12
2019 Thursday, May 2
2020 Tuesday, April 21
2021 Thursday, April 8
2022 Thursday, April 28
2023 Tuesday, April 18
2024 Monday, May 6
2025 Thursday, April 24
2026 Tuesday, April 14
2027 Tuesday, May 4
2028 Monday, April 24
2029 Thursday, April 12
2030 Tuesday, April 30
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Apocalypse said:
...as long as he uses the words "Zionists" or "Israel" is one that is held by the antisemite alone...
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Yup, you made my argument for me in that post. Here it is, using language to shut down the argument.
 
William Rea said:
Yup, you made my argument for me in that post. Here it is, using language to shut down the argument.
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If your argument was that antisemites sometimes use Zionism or Israel to hide the antisemitic nature of their remarks then yes I have made it for you.
Claiming otherwise is ridiculous, way beyond ridiculous actually when just not long ago that NUS fuhrer had called the Birmingham University a "Zionist outpost".
A person who claims "Zionists" control a university, for example, is an anti-Semite period. Claiming that pointing that out is "shutting down discussion" is, as I said, simply an attempt to defend these remarks, which is what you've been doing so far.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So they are "self hating Jews"? So you actually think its impossible to be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic?
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Sure - and its possible I might win the lottery. People who proclaim they are 'anti-Zionist' really mean they are anti-Israel and anti-Jew. There may be exceptions, of course, but they are few in number.
 
PeteEU said:
Why dont you answer the question? What remembrance day in the UK are you talking about?
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I'm not talking about any 'Remembrance Day'. The poster that brought it up was clearly referring to Holocaust Memorial Day, which you - with your typical anti-Israel world view - dismissed as hardly worthy of your attention. Well in keeping with your character.
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
Chagos isn't in the UK Pete, there are other holocaust memorial days. This may help you in future -
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Apparently Pete's never heard of it. Intriguing seeing how it's one of the most solemn occurrences among the people he appears to have no qualms about resettling (joke or no joke:roll:).

Air raid sirens at 10 am and everything stops for 2 minutes, road traffic included (engines cut, drivers standing beside their vehicles in silence). Ceremonies and services everywhere thruout the day and general mourning, many if not most saying Kaddish.

Another term he may not know.

But then it's probably all a great Hasbara propaganda ploy to silence any discussion. :roll:

Sometimes (to paraphrase the great Karl Kraus) I just can't eat enough to puke as much as I need to.
 
I'm really at a loss as to what is so effing difficult to understand about anti-Zionism and anti-semitism being not two but just one side of the same coin.

One can post it in as many threads as one likes and as often as one likes, it just won't sink in, will it?:roll:

But (sigh):

Zionism is the movement by Jews whose root drive is the creation and subsequent keeping of a homeland for the Jews of the world IN ISRAEL.

Holy city being there, the land being holy, traditions being rooted there etc. THERE, NOT IN NEVADA AND NOT IN MADAGASCAR OR WHEREVER.

Anti-Zionism consists of combating those ambitions.

Seeing that it's bit late to combat the state's creation, it can only mean combating the keeping (maintenance) of that state. Since that combat is of necessity directed against the State of Israel, it is (obviously, ferchrissake) against the Jews. Seeing how Israel provides a homeland for ALL Jews (whether they care to make use of it or not), anti-Zionism is against Jews in general.

Arguing the terminology till one is blue in the face changes nothing in this actually rather simple-to-understand equation.

All it achieves is demonstration of the utter ignorance of terminology used, when attempts are made to fling terms around with abandon but without comprehension, once outside this parameter that a 5 year old should be able to grasp.
 
Chagos said:
I'm really at a loss as to what is so effing difficult to understand about anti-Zionism and anti-semitism being not two but just one side of the same coin.

One can post it in as many threads as one likes and as often as one likes, it just won't sink in, will it?:roll:

But (sigh):

Zionism is the movement by Jews whose root drive is the creation and subsequent keeping of a homeland for the Jews of the world IN ISRAEL.

Holy city being there, the land being holy, traditions being rooted there etc. THERE, NOT IN NEVADA AND NOT IN MADAGASCAR OR WHEREVER.

Anti-Zionism consists of combating those ambitions.

Seeing that it's bit late to combat the state's creation, it can only mean combating the keeping (maintenance) of that state. Since that combat is of necessity directed against the State of Israel, it is (obviously, ferchrissake) against the Jews. Seeing how Israel provides a homeland for ALL Jews (whether they care to make use of it or not), anti-Zionism is against Jews in general.

Arguing the terminology till one is blue in the face changes nothing in this actually rather simple-to-understand equation.

All it achieves is demonstration of the utter ignorance of terminology used, when attempts are made to fling terms around with abandon but without comprehension, once outside this parameter that a 5 year old should be able to grasp.
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I absolutely disagree, and before you say it again, yes, it has sunk in and I understand the argument however, I still reject it, just as I would any similar argument. It is special pleading, it is thought policing and it is shutting down the argument plain and simple; Probably worse than that, it is actually a presuppositional type of argument and, those kinds of arguments are dishonest to the core. If that makes me an anti-semite*, then there is something wrong with the terminology but, I will add that as an atheist, I care less than nothing about what religions claim to be sacred.

I hope that you are all now satisfied that you have managed to define me into the same category as our resident 'Proud Anti-Semite'. Good job.
 
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Chagos said:
I'm really at a loss as to what is so effing difficult to understand about anti-Zionism and anti-semitism being not two but just one side of the same coin.

One can post it in as many threads as one likes and as often as one likes, it just won't sink in, will it?:roll:

But (sigh):

Zionism is the movement by Jews whose root drive is the creation and subsequent keeping of a homeland for the Jews of the world IN ISRAEL.

Holy city being there, the land being holy, traditions being rooted there etc. THERE, NOT IN NEVADA AND NOT IN MADAGASCAR OR WHEREVER.

Anti-Zionism consists of combating those ambitions.

Seeing that it's bit late to combat the state's creation, it can only mean combating the keeping (maintenance) of that state. Since that combat is of necessity directed against the State of Israel, it is (obviously, ferchrissake) against the Jews. Seeing how Israel provides a homeland for ALL Jews (whether they care to make use of it or not), anti-Zionism is against Jews in general.

Arguing the terminology till one is blue in the face changes nothing in this actually rather simple-to-understand equation.

All it achieves is demonstration of the utter ignorance of terminology used, when attempts are made to fling terms around with abandon but without comprehension, once outside this parameter that a 5 year old should be able to grasp.
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I'm going to start a new thread in Philosophy.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/252949-new-antisemitism-thought-control.html
 
Chagos said:
I'm really at a loss as to what is so effing difficult to understand about anti-Zionism and anti-semitism being not two but just one side of the same coin.

One can post it in as many threads as one likes and as often as one likes, it just won't sink in, will it?:roll:

But (sigh):

Zionism is the movement by Jews whose root drive is the creation and subsequent keeping of a homeland for the Jews of the world IN ISRAEL.

Holy city being there, the land being holy, traditions being rooted there etc. THERE, NOT IN NEVADA AND NOT IN MADAGASCAR OR WHEREVER.

Anti-Zionism consists of combating those ambitions.

Seeing that it's bit late to combat the state's creation, it can only mean combating the keeping (maintenance) of that state. Since that combat is of necessity directed against the State of Israel, it is (obviously, ferchrissake) against the Jews. Seeing how Israel provides a homeland for ALL Jews (whether they care to make use of it or not), anti-Zionism is against Jews in general.

Arguing the terminology till one is blue in the face changes nothing in this actually rather simple-to-understand equation.

All it achieves is demonstration of the utter ignorance of terminology used, when attempts are made to fling terms around with abandon but without comprehension, once outside this parameter that a 5 year old should be able to grasp.
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It's all rooted in pure ignorance about what Zionism really means. Most of those who consider themselves "anti-Zionist" and attack it on every chance are people who'll tell you that Zionism is some social-economic ideology with global aspirations that are aiming for a new world order and other nonsense. In reality Zionism has been the belief that Jews should have a nation of their own and in the last 68 years it's been the belief that Israel should simply continue to exist, such an awful belief, I don't know if you can even call it a "belief" since it's such a practical idea, we don't feel the need to oppose the idea that the UK or China or North Korea or Angola should continue to exist.

It's the good old antisemitic "Jews are in control of everything" and no ideology takes the "illuminati" or "freemasons" spot better than Zionism. Just several days ago I watched some video from some Egyptian news channel where they were interviewing an Egyptian guy about Lionel Messi and how he had insulted the great Egyptian nation by donating them his shoes, did he attack Messi with strong words calling him names and claiming he's an asshole? No, he simply said "Messi is a Zionist". And that absurd attitude is the same one we're seeing in so many European left-wing circles, an attitude that is rooted in the belief that Jews are behind everything, and the name of the agenda behind those Jews is simply called "Zionism". The "Zionists" control Birmingham university, the "Zionists" control British media, etc. etc. etc.
 
Apocalypse said:
It's all rooted in pure ignorance about what Zionism really means. Most of those who consider themselves "anti-Zionist" and attack it on every chance are people who'll tell you that Zionism is some social-economic ideology with global aspirations that are aiming for a new world order and other nonsense. In reality Zionism has been the belief that Jews should have a nation of their own and in the last 68 years it's been the belief that Israel should simply continue to exist, such an awful belief, I don't know if you can even call it a "belief" since it's such a practical idea, we don't feel the need to oppose the idea that the UK or China or North Korea or Angola should continue to exist.

It's the good old antisemitic "Jews are in control of everything" and no ideology takes the "illuminati" or "freemasons" spot better than Zionism. Just several days ago I watched some video from some Egyptian news channel where they were interviewing an Egyptian guy about Lionel Messi and how he had insulted the great Egyptian nation by donating them his shoes, did he attack Messi with strong words calling him names and claiming he's an asshole? No, he simply said "Messi is a Zionist". And that absurd attitude is the same one we're seeing in so many European left-wing circles, an attitude that is rooted in the belief that Jews are behind everything, and the name of the agenda behind those Jews is simply called "Zionism". The "Zionists" control Birmingham university, the "Zionists" control British media, etc. etc. etc.
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From this post it simply sounds like you guys have lumped together a whole load of crap, called it 'Zionist' linked it to Jewishness and Israel and then just run with it as a political tool.
 
William Rea said:
From this post it simply sounds like you guys have lumped together a whole load of crap, called it 'Zionist' linked it to Jewishness and Israel and then just run with it as a political tool.
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Now why would you say that.
 
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