UK EU referendum [W:40:728]

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Could have fooled me!



So you spent lots of time and effort to come up with this?

Okay lets get some thing straight here.. and you should know this according to yourself.

The EU/EEC has evolved since it got started in 1957, where the original treaty was called The Treaty of Rome. Now what most people seem to not understand, is that this Treaty is still valid. Since then there has been add-on treaties to factor in more members and the implementation of factors of the Treaty of Rome.

Now the EU constitution would have replaced it all, with the SAME content plus the Treaty of Lisbon. Now the problem in doing this, is that would require referendums in many countries. The problem with referendums on stuff like this, is that it becomes more about national politics and not so much about the actual issue. It happened in Ireland and in France. Dont even try to deny that.

So yes, the EU members had to do another amending treaty instead of replacing the whole thing with a Constitution. And of course the Lisbon Treaty would be very similar to the Constitution because most of the changes were needed because of changes in number of members and so on.

There is no conspiracy here.. the process was very open and clear what they did. A new constitution would require referendums because.. it is new.. where as an amendment treaty in most cases does not because it is not.. new. Not hard to understand.

I have pointed out that I dislike corresponding with rude ideologues, when they bring nothing but opinion and old hat to the table, while negating the obvious.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I have pointed out that I dislike corresponding with rude ideologues, when they bring nothing but opinion and old hat to the table, while negating the obvious.

:lol: so you have something against facts? This has absolutely nothing to do with ideology, but facts.

If you read the Constitution and then the Treaty of Lisbon, you would quickly see that they are almost the same... almost. There is no conspiracy here at all. If you had read the background to why the Constitution was needed, you would also understand why the Treaty of Lisbon was needed. It has nothing to do with ideology but cold hard facts.

The only ideology here is you pushing a bull**** conspiracy theory that never existed.

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

:lol: so you have something against facts? This has absolutely nothing to do with ideology, but facts.

If you read the Constitution and then the Treaty of Lisbon, you would quickly see that they are almost the same... almost. There is no conspiracy here at all. If you had read the background to why the Constitution was needed, you would also understand why the Treaty of Lisbon was needed. It has nothing to do with ideology but cold hard facts.

The only ideology here is you pushing a bull**** conspiracy theory that never existed.

Nothing against facts. Do you know any?

 

[Red_Dave]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

Personally I don´t see any causal link between one or the other, We simply have nothing left to fight about. Most previous wars were about

1 Monarchial sucession
2 Religious issues
3 Border disputes, notably Alsace-Lorraine
4 Captalism vs Communism VS liberal democracy
5 Rival imperial ambitions

All of which are no longer much of an issue. And wouldnt be even if the EU had never existed.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Personally I don´t see any causal link between one or the other, We simply have nothing left to fight about. Most previous wars were about

1 Monarchial sucession
2 Religious issues
3 Border disputes, notably Alsace-Lorraine
4 Captalism vs Communism VS liberal democracy
5 Rival imperial ambitions

All of which are no longer much of an issue. And wouldnt be even if the EU had never existed.

That pretty much pure supposition, like saying had Hitler died at birth there'd never have been WWII. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Personally I don´t see any causal link between one or the other, We simply have nothing left to fight about. Most previous wars were about

Well yes and no. I think I understand what you are getting at.

1 Monarchial sucession

Has to do with power of course but also land and money...I mean the English kings went to war with France not over pride, but so they could collect war taxes, build egos but also most importantly expand their tax base by conquering lands.

2 Religious issues

total toss up .. so yes the EU would have been irrelevant here.. so would any other organisation (NATO, UN). But often religion was also used as an excuse. Take your Henry the 8th, the guy that created the Church of England. Why? Sure he wanted to divorce his wives, but another motive was to confiscate all the gold and lands of the Catholic Church in the UK.

3 Border disputes, notably Alsace-Lorraine

Most of these border disputes had to do with land and resources and that means money and power. In the case of the Alsace-Lorraine region, there was a lot of natural resources in the ground plus the land to grow food. Same reason that the Saarland was so important for the allies to take from the Germans and why Hitler wanted it back so badly.

4 Captalism vs Communism VS liberal democracy

Actually I would argue that up to a point the EEC/EU has stabilized many countries on the democracy front. Money talks after all.

5 Rival imperial ambitions

Those are still going on in some peoples mind /wave English Tories. But again, it comes down to money, power and resources.

I am not saying that the EU/EEC was the sole reason for the stability in Western Europe since WW2, but it had a good influence on especially the economical and hence the political aspects of European life. For centuries in all European countries, the right wing had run the economies based on so called free market principles where they controlled everything in small monopolies. The UK is famous for its "free market principles" and yet its empire was built on massive monopolies, exploitation and manipulation. These ideas and industries were very much around at the end of WW2 and defended tooth and nail in the UK and many other countries by sitting governments. The EU/EEC helped big time in breaking up those old industries and push competition so that we today in many countries have very healthy competitive markets and industries.. especially compared to what we once had. I have no doubt that this would never have happened without the EU/EEC.

All of which are no longer much of an issue. And wouldnt be even if the EU had never existed.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

Economically, the UK will be royally effed if it leaves the EU: it will still need to abide by all those regulations that form the backbone of the 'out' argument, otherwise it will not be able to trade with the EU. The global corporations will leave, so goodbye Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tata, and tens of thousands of jobs, welcome home tens of thousands of expats who no longer qualify to work and/or remain in EU countries.

The idea that leaving the EU will result in the repatriation of democratic powers to the British people is a sad joke when the corporately-owned Tory government has no interest in seeing any such thing as democracy - witness their electoral gerrymandering, hostility to devolution and sad, electioneering lies about decentralisation and the creation of a 'Northern Powerhouse'. Funny how George Osborne hasn't mentioned that since the election, isn't it?

I hate much about the EU - the Christian capitalists' club - and hope to see Schäuble, Dijsselbloem, Merkel and the bunch kicked hard in the nads, but my dislike how the EU is currently operating doesn't make me want to ditch it, but want to change it. It certainly doesn't drive me into the arms of crypto-fascists, ethnic nationalists and corporatist libertarians.

The single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WW2 has been the US security guarantee.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

i hope the UK will vote to leave the EU, the EU is seemingly designed to be as undemocratic as possible, and for the benefit of france and germany, to the detriment of everyone else. if france and germany want to have a club, let them have it, but they're the only ones gaining from the present arrangement and france is arguable.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WW2 has been the US security guarantee.

Sure it has been. :roll: I'm sure that line plays well in Roanoke and Richmond; less well in Liège, Lyon and Logroño.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sure it has been. :roll: I'm sure that line plays well in Roanoke and Richmond; less well in Liège, Lyon and Logroño.

It is nonetheless true. The last time there was a serious intra-Euro scrap, in the former Yugoslavia, it took US intervention to sort it out.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

It is nonetheless true. The last time there was a serious intra-Euro scrap, in the former Yugoslavia, it took US intervention to sort it out.

No one sorted that out. It ran its course and claimed over 250,000 lives. The UN, NATO and the US were involved in attempts at peace-keeping. Fairly unsuccessfully. Sad and revealing that you'd claim that as a success story of US intervention in Europe.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

No one sorted that out. It ran its course and claimed over 250,000 lives. The UN, NATO and the US were involved in attempts at peace-keeping. Fairly unsuccessfully. Sad and revealing that you'd claim that as a success story of US intervention in Europe.

I guess that's why the agreement is named for a city in Ohio.

[h=3]Dayton Accords | international agreement | Britannica.com[/h]www.britannica.com/event/Dayton-Accords


Encyclopaedia Britannica


Brian Schlumbohm/U.S. Air Forcepeace agreement reached on Nov. 21, 1995, by the presidents of Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia, ending the war in Bosnia and outlining a General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.



[h=3]Dayton Accords - US Department of State[/h]www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/dayton/




United States Department of State


Dayton Accords. -11/21/95 General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and ... -11/21/95 Agreement on Initialling the General Framework Agreement



[h=3][PDF]Dayton Agreement - UN Peacemaker[/h]peacemaker.un.org/.../BA_951121_DaytonAgreement.pd...




United Nations


framework agreement for peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the annexes ... Yugoslavia as well as the other parties thereto on 21 November 1995 in Dayton,.

 

[Wiggen]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WW2 has been the US security guarantee.

Of course it is, but if you think European Lefties will ever accept that proposition, I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

[Wiggen]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

There'll be no need for France to stop migrants their side of the channel, if the UK isn't a member any more.

You mean the English Channel and the Royal Navy would have to do it? Oh, Woe is me!

 

[Wiggen]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I guess that's why the agreement is named for a city in Ohio.

[h=3]Dayton Accords | international agreement | Britannica.com[/h]www.britannica.com/event/Dayton-Accords


Encyclopaedia Britannica


Brian Schlumbohm/U.S. Air Forcepeace agreement reached on Nov. 21, 1995, by the presidents of Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia, ending the war in Bosnia and outlining a General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.



[h=3]Dayton Accords - US Department of State[/h]www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/dayton/


United States Department of State


Dayton Accords. -11/21/95 General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and ... -11/21/95 Agreement on Initialling the General Framework Agreement



[h=3][PDF]Dayton Agreement - UN Peacemaker[/h]peacemaker.un.org/.../BA_951121_DaytonAgreement.pd...




United Nations


framework agreement for peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the annexes ... Yugoslavia as well as the other parties thereto on 21 November 1995 in Dayton,.

You don't expect a Euro-lefty to ever give any credit to the US for anything, do you? The Europeans failed spectacularly in the former Yugoslavia (remember the horror show by the Dutch at Srbenicia?) , and it was only when US military force was brought to bear on the Serbs that the killing stopped. These folks have extremely short memories.

 

[Wiggen]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

No one sorted that out. It ran its course and claimed over 250,000 lives. The UN, NATO and the US were involved in attempts at peace-keeping. Fairly unsuccessfully. Sad and revealing that you'd claim that as a success story of US intervention in Europe.

Even more sad, yet unsurprising, that you deny it. You and Pete continue to reassure me with your constant belittling of the US and everything it has ever done. There aren't many consistent things in the world that we can rely on any more. Your unfailing anti-Americanism thankfully is one that we can rely on.

 

[Wiggen]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Exactly. This is so overlooked. Britain insisted Sangatte be closed so what happened? The jungle sprang up - where else were they going to go? France keeps hold of the immense problem that is the jungle precisely because it can't let another EU state be flooded - hence the fences and the increased protection around tunnels, the ferries, the Eurostar etc. Those who think the French authorities and police are being lax haven't seen anything yet. Should Britain leave the EU, France will have no responsibiity to its neighbour and the migrants will just come spewing forth at Dover. Leaving the EU will not curtail illegal migration to the UK - you will import the problem wholesale.

Actually that's why you have a Navy.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I guess that's why the agreement is named for a city in Ohio.

Is that the best you've got? Using that logic I guess the French are to be congratulated for the ending of the Revolutionary War - treaty named for Paris and all that. :roll:

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Even more sad, yet unsurprising, that you deny it. You and Pete continue to reassure me with your constant belittling of the US and everything it has ever done. There aren't many consistent things in the world that we can rely on any more. Your unfailing anti-Americanism thankfully is one that we can rely on.

No what is sad is how you constantly put the US on a pedestal and ignoring the truth. For example...

You don't expect a Euro-lefty to ever give any credit to the US for anything, do you? The Europeans failed spectacularly in the former Yugoslavia (remember the horror show by the Dutch at Srbenicia?) , and it was only when US military force was brought to bear on the Serbs that the killing stopped. These folks have extremely short memories.

Talk about American history revisions bull****. It is typical crap... America won WW2, American did this and that and saved us all... and it is an insult to all the other nations and people who were part of it all. Take Bosnia. Who were the countries there from the start, trying to force peace despite a totally flawed and handicapped UN plan? Oh Denmark, France and other nations. They lost people and yet it is only the Americans that get mentioned for sending in a division after the ceasefire was agreed.. Hell even the NATO air campaign is usually mentioned as the American, when in fact the multiple nations contributed.

Has American presence secured security and stability in Western Europe? Sure, but that would not have mattered one bit if the Europeans themselves did not step up and create the political and social aspects needed to mend wounds created over centuries. One of these methods was the EEC/EU and one could argue easily that it was a key factor. For the first time in centuries France, UK and Germany/German states, were not at war with each other over land and resources.

 

[Sweden]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WW2 has been the US security guarantee.

Exactly right Jack. I was and remain very grateful. Leftist anti-Americanism in Western Europe saddens me.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

No what is sad is how you constantly put the US on a pedestal and ignoring the truth.

And that's his problem, Pete. He doesn't want any factual challenge to the American exceptionalist, neo-con narrative. You agree that American power is the undisputed and unique force for good in the world, or you're anti-American, almost certainly a leftist Eurofag, and definitely an apologist for Putin/Assad/ISIS/Cologne rapists.

There's no middle ground whereby you can criticise and praise where appropriate, but these are zealots we're dealing with. So be it.

 

[gunner]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

And that's his problem, Pete. He doesn't want any factual challenge to the American exceptionalist, neo-con narrative. You agree that American power is the undisputed and unique force for good in the world, or you're anti-American, almost certainly a leftist Eurofag, and definitely an apologist for Putin/Assad/ISIS/Cologne rapists.

There's no middle ground whereby you can criticise and praise where appropriate, but these are zealots we're dealing with. So be it.

The trouble with that position, Andy, is it can be used in reverse; I mean, Pete is probably the worse anti-American/UK poster on this board. He wouldn't know middle ground if it smacked him in the face!

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The trouble with that position, Andy, is it can be used in reverse; I mean, Pete is probably the worse anti-American/UK poster on this board. He wouldn't know middle ground if it smacked him in the face!

That's pretty true. I've had to take him to task for that a dozen times, but that doesn't undermine the point that the Wiggens of this world are cut from the same cloth, just one with a different pattern of hatreds.

 

[gunner]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

That's pretty true. I've had to take him to task for that a dozen times, but that doesn't undermine the point that the Wiggens of this world are cut from the same cloth, just one with a different pattern of hatreds.

Yes, you have I do not have your patience, and dismiss him 100% of the time, due to his in-built bias.

 

[Grant]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

For the first time in centuries France, UK and Germany/German states, were not at war with each other over land and resources.

I suppose that's intended as a compliment for these countries but the only reason they're now this way is that they exhausted their finances, as well as a future generation, in their internecine wars. Luckily the Americans were there to restore some order though, as history demonstrates, there are always outbreaks of violence somewhere in Europe.