Turkey want things we can't give

[oneworld2]

Nothing here is entrenching on Turkey's sovereignity. They can do whatever they want. This is Tureky (a NATO member) trying to enforce their will on Sweden (a NATO applicant), basically the country whose sovereignity is violated here is Sweden.

Turkey believes that Swedish actions regarding Kurdish terrorist group members on its soil are counter to its national security interests. That's not without some justification btw. So I think there is a case that Swedish sovereign decisions could be impacting on the national interests of Turkey. You don't seem to care much about that.

The above also undermines to an extent your claim that it is only Swedish interests/rights that are being denied?

 

[Juks]

Turkey 'wants things we can't give', says NATO hopeful Sweden

Sweden has agreed to do what Turkey first asked for, but of course Turkey just asks for more. What Ankara really want is for Sweden to extradite every Kurd from Turkish Kurdistan (whether Swedish citizen or not) directly to a trial held at Ankara airport broadcasted on every Turkish tv channel where Erdogan himself sits as judge and proclaim them all terrorists. Maybe a tad exaggerated but just a tad. Basically Turkey is asking for the impossible, and Ankara is well aware they are aksing for the impossible.

What Erdogan is after is keeping his veto for Sweden (and Finland) joining NATO alive and active during the Turkish election this summer, so he can campaign on being hard against the West (tend to be something his base enjoys, and he need to give them something else to think about than the collapsing economy). Once the election is over the music from Ankara might well change.

You are correct, but it is not only kurdish people he wants. It is Journalists that opposed him as well.

 

[Juks]

Turkey believes that Swedish actions regarding Kurdish terrorist group members on its soil are counter to its national security interests. That's not without some justification btw. So I think there is a case that Swedish sovereign decisions could be impacting on the national interests of Turkey. You don't seem to care much about that.

The above also undermines to an extent your claim that it is only Swedish interests/rights that are being denied?

In our constitution we have the freedom of speech included. You, as an american might not think that is important (being sarcastic here) but we do. It includes letting those that think and believe the opposite of what you believe to speak, demonstrate for their belief and not be prosecuted for it. I as a swede think that we should not reduce our democratic rights just because Erdogan is doing the same for his people. It is to high of a price to pay. I mean, what's the use of defending yourself and your rights to the price of giving them up?

I do however think that the press gives this Danish lunatic (yeah, the Koran burner isn't even swedish...) to much attention. He attracted 50 people after being "announced" by almost al existing media in sweden for weeks before the demonstration took place. If they haven't he would have been there al alone and noone would have understood what he was al about.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

What happened to countries having the right to sovereignty ?

If it's ok for Ukraine to want to join NATO, something everyone here supports, why is it not okay for Turkey to to exercise its sovereign right to deny Sweden and Finland NATO membership?

Being kicked out of NATO doesn't violate a nation's sovereignty. Being invaded by Russia on the other hand does. Try again.

What are " our values"?

Democracy is good and dictatorships are bad. Let me guess, you disagree that's why you're defending Turkey, a brutal 3rd world dictatorship?

Turkey believes that Swedish actions regarding Kurdish terrorist group members on its soil are counter to its national security interests. That's not without some justification btw. So I think there is a case that Swedish sovereign decisions could be impacting on the national interests of Turkey. You don't seem to care much about that.

The above also undermines to an extent your claim that it is only Swedish interests/rights that are being denied?

Yikes! You actually do support Turkey trying to extradite, imprison and in many cases kill anyone who criticizes Erdogan in the west. You are absolutely incompatible with western values and should move to Russia or Turkey where the people are more like you.

How ****ing retarded is your argument that if we don't give Turkey anyone critical of Erdogan it's violating their national sovereignty?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Nothing here is entrenching on Turkey's sovereignity.

This is exactly the case. Turkey is not having Swedish values imposed on it, Turkey is not being forced or coerced to give up land or any governmental processes that affect Turkish sovereign ground - in fact it's the opposite: Turkey wants to impose on Sweden to remove freedom of speech from a minority that Turkey disapproves of or better still, wants Turkey to shut protesters up or even hand them over.

Goes back to what I said and you intimated at - NATO and the EU should have had a mechanism to remove members who deliberately try to bring down the organisation they joined.

 

[Juks]

This is exactly the case. Turkey is not having Swedish values imposed on it, Turkey is not being forced or coerced to give up land or any governmental processes that affect Turkish sovereign ground - in fact it's the opposite: Turkey wants to impose on Sweden to remove freedom of speech from a minority that Turkey disapproves of or better still, wants Turkey to shut protesters up or even hand them over.

Goes back to what I said and you intimated at - NATO and the EU should have had a mechanism to remove memb...

Throwing out Turkey from NATO is not the answer. That would just press Turkey further towards Russia and Turkey, unlike other countries currently on the side of Russia in the Ukraine war, has the weapons Russia needs . That combined with Turkey open the passage into the black sea for the rest of the Russian fleet, well.... Not good....

I think the answer is that US continues to refuse to sell the planes that Turkey wants to them and makes a seperate deal with Sweden, that renders the NATO deal null and void. The deall can be set to apply until Sweden either is accepted into NATO or withdraws its application on its own accord. (If you can't go through skirt round) This will though only happend if the US gets annoyed enough. Finland joins NATO on it's own accord.

Easy peasy

(And to be honest, the Swedish government's hands are tied behind their backs when it comes to this issue They already changed the constitution (in an unacceptable way in my opinion) last fall to accomindate Turkey, but the thing is that it takes 2 separate voting opportunities in parliament with an election in between to change one of our constitutions and we had elections in September last year, so it's 4 years until the next election.)

 

[joluoto]

Throwing out Turkey from NATO is not the answer. That would just press Turkey further towards Russia and Turkey, unlike other countries currently on the side of Russia in the Ukraine war, has the weapons Russia needs . That combined with Turkey open the passage into the black sea for the rest of the Russian fleet, well.... Not good....

I think the answer is that US continues to refuse to sell the planes that Turkey wants to them and makes a seperate deal with Sweden, that renders the NATO deal null and void. The deall can be set to apply until Sweden either is accepted into NATO or withdraws its application on its own accord. (If you can't go through skirt round) This will though only happend if the US gets annoyed enough.

Easy peasy

I think the main issue is that it's election year in Turkey and Erdogan is suffering in the polls because he crashed the economy.

 

[Juks]

I think the main issue is that it's election year in Turkey and Erdogan is suffering in the polls because he crashed the economy.

Yea, I know, but it looks like he is going to winn even so. Like Putin in the 2000, he has either put his opponents in jail or chased them abroad. He also has some serious voter fraud going on.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I'd love to see American spike Turkey's guns by taking all the Kurds from Scandinavia while this impasse continues. What could Erdogan blame things on then?

In that situation Turkey allows all the migrants from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan transit through Turkey into Europe.

Creating further political instability in Europe and the EU. Then it inspects all US/ EU cargo ships going into the Black Sea, holding them up for months if it so desires

 

[Infinite Chaos]

In that situation Turkey allows all the migrants from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan transit through Turkey into Europe.

They are already stripping refugees and trying to force them into Greece.

92 migrants found in ‘inhuman’ condition on Greek-Turkish border

Ninety-two migrants were found almost naked and bruised after allegedly being forced across the Evros river from Turkey into Greece, Athens said Sunday (16 October).

www.euractiv.com

Anyhow, my post was about the USA. Turkey opening borders would be a direct conflict with the EU which is another body entirely. Different treaties.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

They are already stripping refugees and trying to force them into Greece.

92 migrants found in ‘inhuman’ condition on Greek-Turkish border

Ninety-two migrants were found almost naked and bruised after allegedly being forced across the Evros river from Turkey into Greece, Athens said Sunday (16 October).

www.euractiv.com

Anyhow, my post was about the USA. Turkey opening borders would be a direct conflict with the EU which is another body entirely. Different treaties.

Does not matter does it, the US would be working with Nato which has plenty of EU members, I doubt Turkey would care that the treaties are different when the members are primarily the same

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Does not matter does it, the US would be working with Nato which has plenty of EU members,

I tend to think Turkey can tell the difference between NATO and the EU.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I tend to think Turkey can tell the difference between NATO and the EU.

Yes it can,

But do you think it would care if members of both groups arw messing with it, but primarily over a NATO issue. I don't, i expect it would see it as a European issue and that by letting migrants pass through it can mess with Europe politically

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Yes it can,

But do you think it would care if members of both groups arw messing with it, but primarily over a NATO issue. I don't, i expect it would see it as a European issue and that by letting migrants pass through it can mess with Europe politically

Turkey will use human suffering for a variety of its own causes whether it's to do with NATO or the EU or any muslim brotherhood Turkey is part of.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Turkey will use human suffering for a variety of its own causes whether it's to do with NATO or the EU or any muslim brotherhood Turkey is part of.

Yes it would, as do most countries

 

[Tigerace117]

Turkey will use human suffering for a variety of its own causes whether it's to do with NATO or the EU or any muslim brotherhood Turkey is part of.

Meanwhile Europe will continue scream bloody murder about refugees who aren’t lucky enough to be white like the Ukrainians coming into their countries.

Funny how those refugees weren’t denounced as “invaders”.