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Turkey, Syria, and Iran join forces against Kurds

Demon of Light

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Turkey has decided to move its fight against the terrorist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) beyond the Iraqi border and continue the fight in the field.
The most important leg of this plan relies on the support of Iran and Syria against the terrorist group. A senior government official who spoke to Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity said Turkey will be working closely with these two countries to block any escape routes in the region once the terrorist group is cornered in northern Iraq.

Preliminary signs of this cooperation have already emerged with Iran capturing and executing 29 PKK members in the past six months. Seventeen PKK militants were extradited to Turkey. Syria launched a military campaign against the group, killing 185 terrorists and arresting 400 others. Some 160 of these will be extradited to Turkey, while Germany returned three PKK members to Turkey very recently in what was a first in that country’s history.
Source: Today's Zaman

I read in Debka that Turkey may even be using the UAVs they purchased from Israel to assist the Syrians.
 

joergan

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Yes, and they are massacring hundreds if not thousands...where is the public outcry? The jews kill 9 terrrorists, and the press/EU/UN are screaming - the Syrians murder a thousand CIVILIANS - and not A DAMN PEEP.

Yeah, we'll give a flying cr-p what they have to say the next time they complain about israel...

"Not all the victims are PKK fighters by any means. Most were civilians. Turkish intelligence sources tried to justify the Syrian massacre and their government's complicity by claiming that 2,000 of the 6,000 PKK fighters conducting terrorist attacks in Turkey from North Iraqi havens are Syrian Kurds or providers of alternative bases for their Turkish comrades to strike Turkish military positions from a second direction.
While until Saturday, July 17, Damascus was tight-lipped about its grim campaign against its Kurdish community, Turkish military sources were more vocal. They placed the number of Kurdish dead in battle at 185 and another 400 taken captive, many of whom will be turned over to Ankara. Our sources estimate the number of dead as much higher - more than 300, with at least 1,000 injured."
 

Demon of Light

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Yes, and they are massacring hundreds if not thousands...where is the public outcry? The jews kill 9 terrrorists, and the press/EU/UN are screaming - the Syrians murder a thousand CIVILIANS - and not A DAMN PEEP.
There is a pretty huge difference. For one, despite Israeli propaganda to the contrary the people on the flotilla were not terrorists. For another it was a ship carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza making an attack on it much more horrendous. Lastly, there was considerable media presence during the event, which I doubt is the case here. We do not know how many people have actually been killed or who they are. You claim they're mostly civilians based off nothing and Syria claims they're all terrorists. Obviously it's somewhere in the middle, but without knowing much about what is going on the media has little to actually report.
 

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Source: Today's Zaman

I read in Debka that Turkey may even be using the UAVs they purchased from Israel to assist the Syrians.
And so what? the PKK is a terrorist organisation that has for decades killed hundreds of people in Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Is this "outcry" because the Kurds are seen as "allies" of the US in the region? Lets not forget that Northern Iraq is the first "state" that has been legitimized by the west and especially the US after decades of insurgency and terror by the new rulers of the area.. guess terror does pay after all!
 

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There is a pretty huge difference. For one, despite Israeli propaganda to the contrary the people on the flotilla were not terrorists. For another it was a ship carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza making an attack on it much more horrendous. Lastly, there was considerable media presence during the event, which I doubt is the case here. We do not know how many people have actually been killed or who they are. You claim they're mostly civilians based off nothing and Syria claims they're all terrorists. Obviously it's somewhere in the middle, but without knowing much about what is going on the media has little to actually report.
Your argument could equally be turned around to refute what you are proposing.
The so called relief boats were an obvious jab at the Israeli Authorities, ANY other nation would have sunk all the boats.
 

joergan

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There is a pretty huge difference. For one, despite Israeli propaganda to the contrary the people on the flotilla were not terrorists. For another it was a ship carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza making an attack on it much more horrendous.
I am not a fan of yours, so i'll cut to the chase - why did the one boat with the hostile, armed IHH members suffer casualties, while the other boats without the IHH members had no issues?

Then ask why Germany has just banned this group, with other EU nations soon to follow.

Lastly, there was considerable media presence during the event, which I doubt is the case here. We do not know how many people have actually been killed or who they are.
And tell us why the media coverage is more honest covering the flotilla event than this one? Agenda of yours, where arab muslims/muslims are always right, devoid of failure?

You claim they're mostly civilians based off nothing
WTF? It is the ARTICLE that claims it, not me....

and Syria claims they're all terrorists. Obviously it's somewhere in the middle, but without knowing much about what is going on the media has little to actually report.
Except Syria, who murdered 20,000 people in Hama in 1982, is a fascist dictatorship, and cannot be trusted. So why would any sane person accept anything that a nation like Syria would say?
 

Demon of Light

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I am not a fan of yours, so i'll cut to the chase - why did the one boat with the hostile, armed IHH members suffer casualties, while the other boats without the IHH members had no issues?
The people on the other boats did not resist. Resisting aggression does not make anyone a terrorist. If Israel had allowed the ships to pass they would have delivered their humanitarian aid without consequence or detriment to Israel and no one would have died. The fact these ships do not pose any military threat to Israel is what caused the outcry.

Then ask why Germany has just banned this group, with other EU nations soon to follow.
Europe is not as anti-Israel as you may think.

And tell us why the media coverage is more honest covering the flotilla event than this one? Agenda of yours, where arab muslims/muslims are always right, devoid of failure?
Media coverage of Hamas and Hezbollah is hardly friendly in Arab countries let alone in the west. Syria is not much different as it is even an outcast among its fellow Arab countries. Also in this case the media is trusting the reports from Turkish news, which do not say anything about major civilian casualties. If it was just Syrian news reporting such it would be a different matter.

WTF? It is the ARTICLE that claims it, not me....
So you are not saying the article is accurate? Debka is hardly a source I look to for unbiased information. I do read it for other reasons, but I never assume their characterization of an event is accurate without checking it. So far they are the only ones saying it is mostly civilians being killed.

Except Syria, who murdered 20,000 people in Hama in 1982, is a fascist dictatorship, and cannot be trusted. So why would any sane person accept anything that a nation like Syria would say?
Something that happened nearly 30 years ago should not be taken into consideration.
 

mbig

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The people on the other boats did not resist. Resisting aggression does not make anyone a terrorist.
But clubbing/beating the crap out of the fully expected boarding force does Disqualify them as Unarmed/Non-violent Peace demonstrators they represented themselves as.

If Israel had allowed the ships to pass they would have delivered their humanitarian aid without consequence or detriment to Israel and no one would have died. The fact these ships do not pose any military threat to Israel is what caused the outcry.
The Israeli fleet commander radiod pre-boarding to divert to Ashdod and All the cargo would be trucked to Hamas under the the 'Peace' groups own supervision, But screened by israel for weapons.
The Flotilla refused. "Negative, Negative, our destination is Gaza". Video previously posted.
 
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kaya'08

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But clubbing/beating the crap out of the fully expected boarding force does Disqualify them as Unarmed/Non-violent Peace demonstrators they represented themselves as.


The Israeli fleet commander radiod pre-boarding to divert to Ashdod and All the cargo would be trucked to Hamas under the the 'Peace' groups own supervision, But screened by israel for weapons.
The Flotilla refused. "Negative, Negative, our destination is Gaza". Video previously posted.
Turkey condemns Israel's harsh actions and the likes of you crawl out from under your rock and slam Turkey for dealing with terrorists. Yet not a peak came out of you before Davos. Yet Turkey takes greater care, precision, and diplomatic language to counter our terrorists. There is no blockade on Kirkuk and there is no mountain of dead civilians.

Why dont you just move on?
 

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Turkey, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self-defense. IMO, Turkey is wholly justified in combatting the PKK terrorist organization. Its cooperating with other regional actors to deal with the terrorist threat makes sense.
 

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Turkey, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self-defense. IMO, Turkey is wholly justified in combatting the PKK terrorist organization. Its cooperating with other regional actors to deal with the terrorist threat makes sense.
But it is not accetable if they do not take at least some precautions to protect civilians.

We may find that Turkey is going the bandit nations like Iran. If so they will need to be dealt with accordingly.
 

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But it is not accetable if they do not take at least some precautions to protect civilians.

We may find that Turkey is going the bandit nations like Iran. If so they will need to be dealt with accordingly.
Every nation involved in military operations has a responsibility to respect the Laws of War i.e., avoid targeting civilians, avoid indiscriminate bombardment, and avoid situations where expected civilian casualties would be excessive relative to the anticipated military advantage.
 

kaya'08

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But it is not accetable if they do not take at least some precautions to protect civilians.

We may find that Turkey is going the bandit nations like Iran. If so they will need to be dealt with accordingly.
Do you have any evidence to suggest Turkey is not taking the necessary precautions?

Last i checked the civilian death toll was much less than that of Israel's. You need to remember our nation is a Democratic one that wishes to avert problems with its Kurds and to progress with Democracy so as to continue to destroy the PKK support base.

Using "Turkey" and "Iran" in the same sentence is insulting. It is misleading to try and compare a democratic member and one of the largest assets in NATO as anything close to, or resembling, Iran.
 

washunut

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Do you have any evidence to suggest Turkey is not taking the necessary precautions?

Last i checked the civilian death toll was much less than that of Israel's. You need to remember our nation is a Democratic one that wishes to avert problems with its Kurds and to progress with Democracy so as to continue to destroy the PKK support base.

Using "Turkey" and "Iran" in the same sentence is insulting. It is misleading to try and compare a democratic member and one of the largest assets in NATO as anything close to, or resembling, Iran.
Nice try. Turkey attempted to give Iran cover for it's nuclear program but was not allowed to go forward.

NATO is a relic, not sure what use it is in today's world. Saying that, I read that your FM met with Hamas today and they seem to have an allegiance that does not seem to align itself with NATO or the EU which I am sure will never let a nation like Turkey enter their federation.

Turkey will be left to bottom feed with Hamas, Iran and Syria. Enjoy!
 

kaya'08

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Nice try. Turkey attempted to give Iran cover for it's nuclear program but was not allowed to go forward.
You got proof of that? This isn't the conspiracy theory thread. It was a last ditched attempt by Brazil and Turkey to broker a deal Germany and the US offered last year, but it wasn't ambitious enough. It was a start, and i think it shows that a deal may still be possible with Iran.

Iran is on our border, whether we, or you, like it or not. America can afford to embargo and ignore it but we cannot. It's also our region and our economy that suffers the domino affect of a restricted Iranian economy and it was only natural we acted, to whatever degree, to create some kind of atmosphere of peace.

NATO is a relic, not sure what use it is in today's world. Saying that, I read that your FM met with Hamas today and they seem to have an allegiance that does not seem to align itself with NATO or the EU which I am sure will never let a nation like Turkey enter their federation.
Post a link so i can read on this "alignment" stuff you talk of.
Secondly, its a brave and risky card to play. But Davutoglu has already made it clear he will bring everybody into the equation should a peace deal be brokered and yes, that includes Hamas. Dialogue goes a long way.
 

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You got proof of that? This isn't the conspiracy theory thread. It was a last ditched attempt by Brazil and Turkey to broker a deal Germany and the US offered last year, but it wasn't ambitious enough. It was a start, and i think it shows that a deal may still be possible with Iran.

Iran is on our border, whether we, or you, like it or not. America can afford to embargo and ignore it but we cannot. It's also our region and our economy that suffers the domino affect of a restricted Iranian economy and it was only natural we acted, to whatever degree, to create some kind of atmosphere of peace.



Post a link so i can read on this "alignment" stuff you talk of.
Secondly, its a brave and risky card to play. But Davutoglu has already made it clear he will bring everybody into the equation should a peace deal be brokered and yes, that includes Hamas. Dialogue goes a long way.
Not sure where we are going here. You ask for proof then talk yourself about the deal Turkey worked out with Iran.

Turkey is in a interesting place. For a time it seemed they wanted to be part of the EU, and worked with the West. From what I understand the EU has rebuffed Turkey. Turkey now is looking to be a force in the ME. Good for them. They can choose Iran and Hamas and perhaps that will work for their leaders heading into an election. Maybe they hope to pick up business from Iran and Hamas that Europe increasing is uneasy with.

It will be interesting to see just how far ( low) Turkey will go to expand their power in the region.

It will be interesting to see if Israel starts cutting off sales of military equipment to this regime. I certainly hope so. Dealing with a government like this can only get Israel mired in this problem of civilian Kurdish deaths.
 

mbig

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Do you have any evidence to suggest Turkey is not taking the necessary precautions?

Last i checked the civilian death toll was much less than that of Israel's.
You need to remember our nation is a Democratic one that wishes to avert problems with its Kurds and to progress with Democracy so as to continue to destroy the PKK support base.

Using "Turkey" and "Iran" in the same sentence is insulting. It is misleading to try and compare a democratic member and one of the largest assets in NATO as anything close to, or resembling, Iran.
Surely you remember the last time WE checked? July 1, 2010:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...urkeys-opposition-chief-4.html#post1058832422

Turkey's War on the Kurds. - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists | HighBeam Research - FREE trial
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Article date: 1999
McKiernan, Kevin

Behind army lines in the Turkish province of Siirt, scores of frightened refugees were on the run. They were Kurdish families, fleeing a village that had recently been burned by the Turkish army. When I caught up to them, they were fording the Tigris River, guiding a long line of donkeys laden with refrigerators and other goods. In the village, most of the houses were in Ashes. Only a handful of residents had returned to scavenge some of their belongings. The local mayor told me that an army commander, accompanied by a group of government-armed village guards, had arrived and given residents 24 hours to get out of town. Some quickly dug holes in the outlying fields to bury valuables; others just gathered up what they could carry and abandoned the rest.
[............]
At 25 million, the Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world without their own state....
After World War I, Kurds hoped to create a homeland from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire, but those dreams vanished with the birth of the Turkish Republic in 1923. Riding a wave of nationalism, Mustafa Kemal--known as Ataturk, "the Father of the Turks"--imposed a single identity on the multicultural population of Turkmans, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, and others. Most minorities were forcibly assimilated; everyone became a Turk.
[.............]
The war in Turkey represents the single Largest use of U.S. weapons anywhere in the world by non-U.S. forces, according to Bill Hartung of the World Policy Institute..... In 15 years of fighting in Turkey nearly 40,000 lives have been lost, More than in the conflicts on the West Bank and in Northern Ireland combined.
The Two MILLION refugees produce by the war in Kurdistan
are roughly the number of homeless created by the widely reported war in Bosnia..."

Despite these statistics, the civil strife in Turkey has received comparatively little coverage in the U.S. media. Television news rarely mentions the Kurds, unless the story relates to the Iraqi Kurds. It is almost as though there are two sets of Kurds--the Kurds in Iraq, who seem to be viewed as the "good" Kurds because they oppose Saddam, and the Kurds in Turkey, who are "bad" because they oppose a U.S. ally. It doesn't seem to matter that there are four times as many Kurds in Turkey, or that both populations have suffered repression from their respective governments.

Until 1991, Kurdish Music and Language, Dress, Associations, and Newspapers were Banned by the Turkish government. After the Gulf War, Kurdish printing was legalized, but in the intervening years numerous Kurdish newspaper offices have been bombed and closed. More than a dozen Kurdish journalists, as well as numerous politicians and activists, have been killed by death squads (human rights groups list more that 4,000 extrajudicial killings during the period). Despite 15 years of fighting the PKK, Turkey today has no POWs; most rebels, according to the government, have been "captured dead." But there are large numbers of civilian Kurds in Turkish prisons where, according to organizations like Amnesty International, the use of torture is routine.

Kurdish TV and radio are still illegal in Turkey, although the government has promised to soften the ban. The Kurdish language still may not be taught in schools or used by merchants on storefronts or in advertising. It is illegal in Turkey for parents to give their child a Kurdish name....
Update: Kurds in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Human rights

Turkey's treatment of its citizens of Kurdish origin has been a frequent subject of international criticism.[1] Kurds have largely resisted assimilation policies of the government. The main strategy for assimilation has been suppression of the Kurdish language. Nevertheless, Kurdish is widely spoken.[2][15]

The period immediately following the 1980 Turkish coup d'état was particularly oppressive (not just in respect to ethnic Kurds), when use of Kurdish language in public was banned. The ban was lifted in 1991 during the presidency of Turgut Özal, who was of partial Kurdish descent.[16]

Turkish remains the only official language, and the use of any other language is not allowed in political life or public services. In 2003, the Turkish Parliament eased restrictions on Kurdish language rights in Turkey, however Kurds are largely banned from giving their children Kurdish names.[...]
 
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There is a pretty huge difference. For one, despite Israeli propaganda to the contrary the people on the flotilla were not terrorists.
No despite the denials from the terrorist supporters the ship was owned and operated by a Jihadist affiliated organization known as the IHH, members are quoted in the Turkish press as expressing a desire to become Shahid, and they are the ones who initiated the use of lethal force against Israeli weapons inspectors.

For another it was a ship carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza making an attack on it much more horrendous.
It was a ship that was armed to the ready, and whose operators are on record saying that it had absolutely nothing to do with humanitarian aid and that they wanted a confrontation with Israel, which is quite obvious given the fact that Israel offered the ships safe harbor in an Israeli port for inspection from where the goods would be then transferred to Gaza.
 

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notsprusising!!! in theier search for new ottoman empoire that thetiurskwould lookforleadership iof th earab worldinthis regard; igviestheman issue they're can plug into;soemthignthey can tak ehte leadnad a provetoth e street that thyey'r3 e#1 because tahts's whwere they've decided to go. nolonger NATO , tnow, let's recogiaze them for what hye've decided to gbe, in this new brave wrold frgiigin Erogan onolyly the beginning man, the'y coming the engineers party is seriousl if you don't believe onlhyh buddy wait and you'll see...
 

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Not sure where we are going here. You ask for proof then talk yourself about the deal Turkey worked out with Iran.
What's wrong with working with a neighbour to counter terrorism?

Turkey is in a interesting place. For a time it seemed they wanted to be part of the EU, and worked with the West. From what I understand the EU has rebuffed Turkey. Turkey now is looking to be a force in the ME. Good for them. They can choose Iran and Hamas and perhaps that will work for their leaders heading into an election. Maybe they hope to pick up business from Iran and Hamas that Europe increasing is uneasy with.
Turkey is, if there is any truth to it, looking East exactly because the EU rebuffed it. But what you rave on about has no truth in reality. Maybe in a worst case scenario but its no suprise the country has taken the direction it has. The islamist Erdogan has used EU's "door in the face" policy towards Turkey to move our view to the East. I only hope they loose the next elections to the Kemalists.
I do acknowledge and fear for the direction my country has taken but your hyperbole is doing naught to improve the situation. However, i have no doubt, with the continued escalation of violence with the PKK exactly BECAUSE of the AKP, that eventually there administration will be foiled.

It will be interesting to see if Israel starts cutting off sales of military equipment to this regime. I certainly hope so. Dealing with a government like this can only get Israel mired in this problem of civilian Kurdish deaths.
TAF and the IDF have good ties. Our army is seperate from our government. Our army has always supported Israel, dealt with Israel through business ties, and has one of the strongest inner-army policies against anti-semetism. Its a secular establishment and as much as your propaganda fails, you need to remember its only the AKP here who are the root of the problem.

The military already had drafted plans to topple them (undemocratic, but its the AKP, so who cares)? Unfortunately, they foiled those.
 
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kaya'08

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Referring to a dark time of Turkish democracy and thinking its possible to apply it to today's Turkey. :roll:

Our constitution is different, politically our country has revolutionized, advanced both socially and Democratically. Today, military leaders are prosecuted by the government.
Try doing that in the 80's. Dont underestimate our change.

Yes, air strikes, caused a fire on the entire village. Yet the army takes all measures to avoid civilian deaths.
Israel on the other hand bombed hospitals, schools, used white phosphorus in populated areas and killed almost up to 2,000 civilians in a war that lasted around a week.

[/QUOTE]

No longer the case. They where also banned from naming there villages in Kurdish and speaking Kurdish on TV. The Kurdish initiative has removed these policies because of there huge lack of support in Turkey by both ordinary Turks and Kurds.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...zpH1Bg&usg=AFQjCNHwJvV2RN6IiIa8s_jgflwu8cf81Q
 

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Yes, air strikes, caused a fire on the entire village. Yet the army takes all measures to avoid civilian deaths.
Israel on the other hand bombed hospitals, schools, used white phosphorus in populated areas and killed almost up to 2,000 civilians in a war that lasted around a week.
What war are you talking about, exactly?
 

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Civilians die in war. I'm certain this is something that the Kurds have come to understand long ago.
 

Demon of Light

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Nice try. Turkey attempted to give Iran cover for it's nuclear program but was not allowed to go forward.

NATO is a relic, not sure what use it is in today's world. Saying that, I read that your FM met with Hamas today and they seem to have an allegiance that does not seem to align itself with NATO or the EU which I am sure will never let a nation like Turkey enter their federation.

Turkey will be left to bottom feed with Hamas, Iran and Syria. Enjoy!
I would not call it bottom-feeding. From a geo-political standpoint Turkey is positioning itself well. Not only is Turkey building up an alliance with major Middle-Eastern actors, but also Russia. This system of alliances potentially includes India putting Turkey in a rather powerful axis.

The problem here is most of your comparisons are ridiculous on their face. Over several decades this has taken place in a country several times larger than any other it is compared to in those articles, even the Kurdish population is several times higher than any of these countries. Comparing raw figures is just deceit on your part and I've called you on this deceitful tactic several times before.

It was a ship that was armed to the ready, and whose operators are on record saying that it had absolutely nothing to do with humanitarian aid and that they wanted a confrontation with Israel, which is quite obvious given the fact that Israel offered the ships safe harbor in an Israeli port for inspection from where the goods would be then transferred to Gaza.
Many other aid ships refused to go to Ashdod without incident. Indeed, before 2009 many made it to Gaza without incident. That the people on the ship clearly had no weapons prepared until after Israeli ships arrived suggests there was no pre-planned attack. Rather, it is likely the words of the Israeli navy set of the people on the ship. I have no real interest in re-hashing this discussion.
 

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What's wrong with working with a neighbour to counter terrorism?



Turkey is, if there is any truth to it, looking East exactly because the EU rebuffed it. But what you rave on about has no truth in reality. Maybe in a worst case scenario but its no suprise the country has taken the direction it has. The islamist Erdogan has used EU's "door in the face" policy towards Turkey to move our view to the East. I only hope they loose the next elections to the Kemalists.
I do acknowledge and fear for the direction my country has taken but your hyperbole is doing naught to improve the situation. However, i have no doubt, with the continued escalation of violence with the PKK exactly BECAUSE of the AKP, that eventually there administration will be foiled.



TAF and the IDF have good ties. Our army is seperate from our government. Our army has always supported Israel, dealt with Israel through business ties, and has one of the strongest inner-army policies against anti-semetism. Its a secular establishment and as much as your propaganda fails, you need to remember its only the AKP here who are the root of the problem.

The military already had drafted plans to topple them (undemocratic, but its the AKP, so who cares)? Unfortunately, they foiled those.
Please point out where I have " raved on". You can throw in what you consider hyperbole.

What you fail to admit is that the actions being taken by this government is being done to help them win an election. Thus they must think it is popular with their constituents. Saying that, it would make sense that their actions with Hamas etc must be popular in Turkey.
 
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