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Turkey, Syria, and Iran join forces against Kurds

Hamas is a terrorist organization. My point is, they are expected to act like savages, and we expect more from Israel.

This is the double-standard shown by anti-israeli people frequently.

When hamas acts like animals, its: "well, they're terrorists..."

In other instances when people are questioning its legitimacy, its: "well, they are the duly elected GOVERNMENT of the pal arabs..."

The problem with this sophistry is that by giving hamas and groups like them a pass, you are acting as an enabler. There is no acceptable reason for the left, media, or anyone else to tolerate from anyone bad behaviour, none. So long as they and other terrorists have people apologising and excusing their behaviour, then they will never have to change it, correct? Why would they, when they have that built-in excuse paving the way?

If the leftists led by trash like chompsky, media outlets, EU parliamentarians, etc., said that hamas is made up of humans with brains LIKE EVERY OTHER PERSON, and that enough is enough, we will not tolerate violence and BS anymore, then the terrorism would come to a total stop.

It's like dealing with children, as long as one accepts endless misbehaviour, then it will continue. When the parent says "STOP", it will stop.

You are much too smart a poster to not see how the Turkish gov't manufactured this situation, allowed armed thugs on board, and created the environment for exactly what happened.

Israel did not "play the dummy" and fall right into some "trap," israel has no room to manuever here - they MUST stop all weapons and potential weapons-bearing vehicles coming towards Gaza. The IDF makes one mistake by missing one shipment - and people will be killed for sure. To condemn them for demanding all ships be inspected is nonsense, just as noone in their right mind - or even remotely honest - would expect a 3rd-party nation to send a shipment to the kurds in eastern turkey and believe that the TAF would just say: "sure, bring it right on over."
 
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This is the double-standard shown by anti-israeli people frequently.

When hamas acts like animals, its: "well, they're terrorists..."

In other instances when people are questioning its legitimacy, its: "well, they are the duly elected GOVERNMENT of the pal arabs..."

I disagree. I don't think they ARE legitimate. I think they are terrorists who are shameless, but i think Israel is a country that should be following the West and setting an example. I also believe Hamas should be duly removed but not at the expensive of civilians.

The problem with this sophistry is that by giving hamas and groups like them a pass, you are acting as an enabler. There is no acceptable reason for the left, media, or anyone else to tolerate from anyone bad behaviour, none. So long as they and other terrorists have people apologising and excusing their behaviour, then they will never have to change it, correct? Why would they, when they have that built-in excuse paving the way?

Nobody is apologizing for there behavior or allowing it to past, im just saying im not particularly surprised at anything they do. My position is, it doesn't give Israel an excuse to use disproportionate force and play the same cards Hama's does because Israel isn't a terrorist state.
Had IDF personnel dressed as civilians and conducted warfare that way, there would be public outcry.
Hamas did it, and there was the same barrage of criticism but nothing particularly shocking or nothing constantly covered on the media.

You are much too smart a poster to not see how the Turkish gov't manufactured this situation, allowed armed thugs on board, and created the environment for exactly what happened.

I don't speculate because it is pointless. The Mavi Mamara was set up by the IHH. Some parties later suggested it should have been accompanied by Turkish warships. In that respect, the AKP didn't even get involved until after the incident.
Even if that where the case the AKP could have though of much bigger thugs to put on that boat. Hence i see no reason why this should be pinned on anybody other than the IHH.

Israel did not "play the dummy" and fall right into some "trap," israel has no room to manuever here - they MUST stop all weapons and potential weapons-bearing vehicles coming towards Gaza. The IDF makes one mistake by missing one shipment - and people will be killed for sure. To condemn them for demanding all ships be inspected is nonsense, just as noone in their right mind - or even remotely honest - would expect a 3rd-party nation to send a shipment to the kurds in eastern turkey and believe that the TAF would just say: "sure, bring it right on over."

Nobody has a problem with them inspecting shipments.
Of course, not to do so would be deadly for Israel.
That doesn't mean Gaza needs to be blockaded in order for this to be possible and that computers/chocolates and stupid nonsense like that be removed.

Im not an unrealistic person. I come from a country who has probably had more wars with Arabs than any Jew can remember. And i come from a country who has its fair share of separatist, socialist and oppressive terrorists.

But like Israel, Turkey has been doomed by its own actions.

I believe our relationship with Israel was evidence of our secularist Democracy. With that destroyed....i can only hope future administrations mend wounds and confide within each other trust in order to defeat regional regimes that seek nuclear weapons.
 
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I disagree. I don't think they ARE legitimate. I think they are terrorists who are shameless, but i think Israel is a country that should be following the West and setting an example. I also believe Hamas should be duly removed but not at the expensive of civilians.

No insult, but i am tired of hearing what israel should not do, and what people want to happen - but never offering any suggestions for either.

And israel is in no position to "follow the West" perfectly, since unlike sweden it is 4 million jews surrounded by 500 million arabs, most of whom want to kill them off.

Nobody is apologizing for there behavior or allowing it to past, im just saying im not particularly surprised at anything they do.

So where is the pressure on hamas? Who on the left worldwide/in Turkey or anywhere else protesting hamas' treatment of the arab muslims inside gaza? What protests have been conducted/UN investigations of hamas to put pressure on them? Where are the NGOs or other "human rights'" groups lawsuits against hamas figures? I see NOTHING being done by the anti-israel crowd to even pretend balance against hamas...

Had IDF personnel dressed as civilians and conducted warfare that way, there would be public outcry.

Uhhhh, wasn't there a massive public outcry anyway?

I don't speculate because it is pointless. The Mavi Mamara was set up by the IHH. Some parties later suggested it should have been accompanied by Turkish warships. In that respect, the AKP didn't even get involved until after the incident.

This is obviously false:

Gaza flotilla: Turkey accused of behaving like Iran by Israel - Telegraph

"The ferry was sold to the IHH by the Istanbul Fast Ferries Co, an operation controlled by the AKP-run municipal government. Binali Yildirim, the current transport minister and a prominent member of the cabinet, was previously general manager of the company.

He forged close links to Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, when he worked at the company and Mr Erdogan was mayor of Istanbul.
The IHH has claimed to have raised money from a number of Islamic organisations and figures with close links to the AKP. These include two prominent members of the AKP and mayors of local governments in Istanbul.

Wealthy businessmen linked to the AKP have been known to give large sums of the money to the IHH. "The same constituency of people with extremely conservative Muslim views have given their support to the IHH and the AKP," said Ziya Meral, a researcher on the AKP's grassroots political support."

Even if that where the case the AKP could have though of much bigger thugs to put on that boat. Hence i see no reason why this should be pinned on anybody other than the IHH.

See the link above.

Nobody has a problem with them inspecting shipments. Of course, not to do so would be deadly for Israel.
That doesn't mean Gaza needs to be blockaded in order for this to be possible and that computers/chocolates and stupid nonsense like that be removed.

Again, the double-speak. You claim israel has a right to inspect the ships - but then in the next sentence claim a blockade is unnecessary...which is it, because the 2 are mutually exclusive.

But like Israel, Turkey has been doomed by its own actions.

Nonsense, israel has had to endure massive external terrorism perpetuated against it by arab muslims. Every inch of land it has vacated in the last 40 years has been turned into a terrorist enclave, with attacks directed from it. This is NOT a land conflict, and never has been.
 
No insult, but i am tired of hearing what israel should not do, and what people want to happen - but never offering any suggestions for either.

And Israel is in no position to "follow the West" perfectly, since unlike sweden it is 4 million jews surrounded by 500 million arabs, most of whom want to kill them off.

Well, yeah. Mostly in part due to the policies Israel actively deploys.

So where is the pressure on hamas? Who on the left worldwide/in Turkey or anywhere else protesting hamas' treatment of the arab muslims inside gaza? What protests have been conducted/UN investigations of hamas to put pressure on them? Where are the NGOs or other "human rights'" groups lawsuits against hamas figures? I see NOTHING being done by the anti-israel crowd to even pretend balance against hamas...

What are we supposed to do? There crimes are internationally recognized, they have been registered as terrorists groups, and the Palestinians elected them in part because of there ideology which comes with the oppression they obviously voted for. All we CAN do is make sure Israel shows a bit more care and uses the force necessary to destroy Hama's strongholds and other places of importance to them, be it crossing the border or using the air, but employing no policies other than those that address the root of the problem to protect Israel from rocket strikes. That way, every policy has its use, and it's not just there out of spite and it serves a purpose and it doesn't cause unnecessary conflict or tensions other than those that are inevitable.

Remember, Hamas may be the indirect reason of there current plight, but it is the blockade that is the direct cause of the situation down there, which is why the pro-humanitarians lobby against Israel the most.

I admit, there are some who are genuinly concerned with the situation down there, and some who are plain and simple anti-semetic and will do everything to hurt Israel. That's a shame but from my knowledge there are none of those on this forum.


This is obviously false:

Gaza flotilla: Turkey accused of behaving like Iran by Israel - Telegraph

"The ferry was sold to the IHH by the Istanbul Fast Ferries Co, an operation controlled by the AKP-run municipal government. Binali Yildirim, the current transport minister and a prominent member of the cabinet, was previously general manager of the company.

He forged close links to Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, when he worked at the company and Mr Erdogan was mayor of Istanbul.
The IHH has claimed to have raised money from a number of Islamic organisations and figures with close links to the AKP. These include two prominent members of the AKP and mayors of local governments in Istanbul.

Wealthy businessmen linked to the AKP have been known to give large sums of the money to the IHH. "The same constituency of people with extremely conservative Muslim views have given their support to the IHH and the AKP," said Ziya Meral, a researcher on the AKP's grassroots political support."



See the link above.

Actually, thanks for that link, because i didn't know that.

Again, the double-speak. You claim israel has a right to inspect the ships - but then in the next sentence claim a blockade is unnecessary...which is it, because the 2 are mutually exclusive.

Actually, they are not mutually exclusive. There IS no reason for a blockade. Normal border controls like in any place in the world is enough to stop weapons getting smuggled over. However, confiscating shaving foam, chocolates and computers sounds completely and wholly necessary and its clear from that alone the policy is to starve out Gaza and not actually use the blockade to stop Hamas obtaining weapons, unless of course, they where to build chocolate bunkers.

On the other hand, land border controls will not stop external parties sending weapons to Hamas through shipments. Thats why THAT is necessary.


Nonsense, israel has had to endure massive external terrorism perpetuated against it by arab muslims. Every inch of land it has vacated in the last 40 years has been turned into a terrorist enclave, with attacks directed from it. This is NOT a land conflict, and never has been.

And how much land has it invaded and occupied in that period of time?

Can you see why it feels the ME is collapsing onto Israel?
 
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Actually, they are not mutually exclusive. There IS no reason for a blockade. Normal border controls like in any place in the world is enough to stop weapons getting smuggled over. However, confiscating shaving foam, chocolates and computers sounds completely and wholly necessary and its clear from that alone the policy is to starve out Gaza and not actually use the blockade to stop Hamas obtaining weapons, unless of course, they where to build chocolate bunkers.
Stop being disingenuous. No one is starving in Gaza. If that tripe were true, there would be UN pictures of scrawny-skin-and-bones-Gazan's plastered all over the Internet. Come now kaya, you are brighter than this.

You also neglect to consider the labyrinth of underground smuggling tunnels which circumvent normal border controls. In addition, you fail to concede that Israel has amended the list of banned items.

The blockade of Gaza has also served another useful purpose (although unintended) which very few even consider. It prevents a bloody and wholesale civil war between the Fatah and Hamas factions.

On the other hand, land border controls will not stop external parties sending weapons to Hamas through shipments. Thats why THAT is necessary.
Hamas attempts to circumvent both land and sea controls in arms smuggling operations. Do you think the Iranian arms convoy destroyed by the IAF in Sudan was sailing to Gaza?
 
Well, yeah. Mostly in part due to the policies Israel actively deploys.

I'm not sure if you can sugarcoat your hatred much after this statement. If you are so laughably clueless as to believe that it is the 4 million jews, under siege since the middle ages and earlier in the area, are responsible for the conflict there, then I really cannot talk to you much longer. All my response is at this point would be to start reading a history of the middle east going back to the 1400s.

The arab muslims are oppressing and ethnically cleansing the entire middle east of non-arab muslims every day; copts, chaldeans, assyrians, maronites, orthodox christians, kurds, jews, etc. are all facing the same violence, terrorism, discrimination, racial laws, etc. You need to stop reading CNN, the BBC NY Times and other garbage media outlets, and get a fuller, real picture of the region. The mideast has alot happening, and unlike what these outlets present, not all of the conflicts are in israel - most are outside of it - israel is only an example of it.

What are we supposed to do?

You're kidding right?

The issue is what AREN'T you doing - which is EVERYTHING... Street protests daily against hamas across the muslim world, ostracization of those nations, groups, and wealthy donors who fund them, legal action against them in international courts, pushing your government for HRC resolutions against them in the UN, pressure through letter-writing campaigns and TV/radio ads against AI and HRW to investigate how hamas and hezbollah use schools and hospitals for shelter, creative, attention getting grass-roots campaigns like a one-million balloon launch to highlight their use of children - there are so many things you and the leftists/EU citizens/UN/NGOs can be doing - but prefer to simply focus and point your collective fingers at Israel.

There crimes are internationally recognized, they have been registered as terrorists groups, and the Palestinians elected them in part because of there ideology which comes with the oppression they obviously voted for.

Are you implying that the population itself can be slaughtered since it voted for these criminals? ;)

All we CAN do is make sure Israel shows a bit more care and uses the force necessary to destroy Hama's strongholds and other places of importance to them,

Splendid, as I said above - give me precise examples of what exact policies would accomplish that - i want specifics.

Remember, Hamas may be the indirect reason of there current plight, but it is the blockade that is the direct cause of the situation down there, which is why the pro-humanitarians lobby against Israel the most.

You just said they voted for hamas, so wouldn't they themselves be responsible for their mess? And you seem to be trying very hard to give hamas a pass - when it is quite obvious that if they were to be removed as the cancer they are from the scene, then the conflict would stop.

Actually, they are not mutually exclusive. There IS no reason for a blockade. Normal border controls like in any place in the world is enough to stop weapons getting smuggled over.

This borders on the hilarious; "normal border controls" can stop weapons smuggling? Is that what you are seriously claiming?
 
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If you really want a debate about Israel, open a thread up and i'll happily join. However, this thread is about the PKK attacks, not Israel, and it strikes me as awkward how Tashah has not taken any action to keep discussions on topic as his her duty.

ANYWAY
Until then, get the hell back on topic. Trying to justify a humanitarian disaster is not the subject of this thread.
 
If you really want a debate about Israel, open a thread up and i'll happily join. However, this thread is about the PKK attacks, not Israel, and it strikes me as awkward how Tashah has not taken any action to keep discussions on topic as his her duty.

ANYWAY
Until then, get the hell back on topic. Trying to justify a humanitarian disaster is not the subject of this thread.

I have an idea; you worry about trying to defend your ridiculous posts/claims, and let the forum mods do their job, k?
 
If you really want a debate about Israel, open a thread up and i'll happily join. However, this thread is about the PKK attacks, not Israel, and it strikes me as awkward how Tashah has not taken any action to keep discussions on topic as his her duty.

ANYWAY
Until then, get the hell back on topic. Trying to justify a humanitarian disaster is not the subject of this thread.

Shouldn't you be saying this to the poster who talked about Israel in posts 9, 13, 21, 28, 31, 35, 40, 41, 44, 45, 48, 52 and 54 in this thread, instead?
 
If there are man with gun up on the mountain, you go with gun to meet them.

Kurdish problem and terrorism problem are not the same thing. but related.
 
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I have an idea; you worry about trying to defend your ridiculous posts/claims, and let the forum mods do their job, k?

If you are so eager to discuss, open a thread on it, may be you can have sensible ideas there.
 
If there are man with gun up on the mountain, you go with gun to meet them.

Kurdish problem and terrorism problem are not the same thing. but related.

This guy got bounced before I could even ask if he was Kaya's sock puppet...

My request to Cap'n C: give us a chance to at least hit the pinata a few times before you load 'em in your cannon and fire 'em out of the 3-ring circus ;) LOL
 
This guy got bounced before I could even ask if he was Kaya's sock puppet...

My request to Cap'n C: give us a chance to at least hit the pinata a few times before you load 'em in your cannon and fire 'em out of the 3-ring circus ;) LOL

Pardon, Is it me?

:2wave:
 
This guy got bounced before I could even ask if he was Kaya's sock puppet...

My request to Cap'n C: give us a chance to at least hit the pinata a few times before you load 'em in your cannon and fire 'em out of the 3-ring circus ;) LOL

Haha, not even close. As efendi said, open a new thread.

Turkey is doing its duty to its people, its soveriegn and its Democracy.
Dont get me wrong; so is Israel. But Kirkuk isn't blockaded, and we dont blow up Kurdish boats.

Citing events from a past Turkey doesn't work.
Trying to make us look bad fails. We are a secular, democratic nation, an asset to NATO, and a country who follows - with it's heart - American and Western values. We have failed in many aspect's, because we are not perfect. But we learn from our mistakes and correct our past. This is why the new constitution will come into effect. This is why in Turkey there is a bigger than before emphasis on Democratic advance.

But look, Israel has nothing to do with this topic, please do not post here if you have something unrelated to say.

Even though we have a long way to go, im proud of what we have achieved Democratically so far. It's our dream that we will be the Western influence amongst the Arabs they do not despise so we can bring the East and West together.

And to my alledged sock puppet, merhaba!
 
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Merhaba Kaya.
 
Turkey, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self-defense. IMO, Turkey is wholly justified in combatting the PKK terrorist organization. Its cooperating with other regional actors to deal with the terrorist threat makes sense.

It's difficult not to be suspicious of anything Syria and Iran are involved in.
 
Haha, not even close. As efendi said, open a new thread.

Turkey is doing its duty to its people, its soveriegn and its Democracy.
Dont get me wrong; so is Israel. But Kirkuk isn't blockaded, and we dont blow up Kurdish boats.

Citing events from a past Turkey doesn't work.
Trying to make us look bad fails. We are a secular, democratic nation, an asset to NATO, and a country who follows - with it's heart - American and Western values. We have failed in many aspect's, because we are not perfect. But we learn from our mistakes and correct our past. This is why the new constitution will come into effect. This is why in Turkey there is a bigger than before emphasis on Democratic advance.

But look, Israel has nothing to do with this topic, please do not post here if you have something unrelated to say.

Even though we have a long way to go, im proud of what we have achieved Democratically so far. It's our dream that we will be the Western influence amongst the Arabs they do not despise so we can bring the East and West together.

And to my alledged sock puppet, merhaba!

It may be true that in the recent past Turkey was a forward looking nation. There can be no mistaking the fact that Turkey is looking to get in bed with the ME regimes hoping to mayhem.

That being the case, it would be a mistake for the West to continue to support Turkey. NATO should tell Turkey make a decision Iran, Syria or NATO. You can't have both.
 
It may be true that in the recent past Turkey was a forward looking nation. There can be no mistaking the fact that Turkey is looking to get in bed with the ME regimes hoping to mayhem.

That being the case, it would be a mistake for the West to continue to support Turkey. NATO should tell Turkey make a decision Iran, Syria or NATO. You can't have both.

Guess who is the first trade partner of Iran?

Germany.
Nearlly all the EU countries have interest in the countries. But when It come to Turkey. It is chosing ME. It is hypocracy and sheer absurdity. Turkey must increase her trade. and economic cultural relationships. Because they are the neighbouring countries. Turkey can have both as any Western branded country have both.

Turkey will choose her own interest as any country should do, and doing.
 
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