Turkey says it will look elsewhere if U.S. won't sell Patriots, F-35s

[TU Curmudgeon]

From Reuters

Turkey says it will look elsewhere if U.S. won't sell Patriots, F-35s
​

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey warned on Wednesday that it could buy jets and additional air defense systems from Russia if it cannot get Patriot missile shields and F-35 jets from Washington, raising the prospect of ever deeper defense ties between Moscow and a NATO member.

President Tayyip Erdogan’s existing plans to buy Russian S-400 missile defenses have already alarmed the United States, which says they are not compatible with NATO systems and would compromise the security of F-35 jets Turkey is due to receive.

Washington has offered Ankara both carrot and stick in response, proposing to sell it the Raytheon Co. Patriot systems instead of the S-400s, while at the same time warning of sanctions and a halt in the F-35 fighter jet sales if the Russian deal goes ahead.

Turkey has shown no sign of giving ground and Erdogan, who held talks with President Vladimir Putin in Moscow this week, was quoted on Wednesday as saying the July date for delivery of the first S-400s could even be brought forward.

COMMENT:-

Don't those Turks know that Russia DOES NOT HAVE any Patriots or F-35s to sell them? Don't they know that if they don't buy AMERICAN weapons that Mr. Trump is likely to declare that Turkey is a terrorist organization?
​

 

[PeteEU]

Think they have figured out that the F35 is an expensive flying coffin with so many strings attached.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

 

[Mycroft]

From Reuters

Turkey says it will look elsewhere if U.S. won't sell Patriots, F-35s
​

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey warned on Wednesday that it could buy jets and additional air defense systems from Russia if it cannot get Patriot missile shields and F-35 jets from Washington, raising the prospect of ever deeper defense ties between Moscow and a NATO member.

President Tayyip Erdogan’s existing plans to buy Russian S-400 missile defenses have already alarmed the United States, wIhich says they are not compatible with NATO systems and would compromise the security of F-35 jets Turkey is due to receive.

Washington has offered Ankara both carrot and stick in response, proposing to sell it the Raytheon Co. Patriot systems instead of the S-400s, while at the same time warning of sanctions and a halt in the F-35 fighter jet sales if the Russian deal goes ahead.

Turkey has shown no sign of giving ground and Erdogan, who held talks with President Vladimir Putin in Moscow this week, was quoted on Wednesday as saying the July date for delivery of the first S-400s could even be brought forward.

COMMENT:-

Don't those Turks know that Russia DOES NOT HAVE any Patriots or F-35s to sell them? Don't they know that if they don't buy AMERICAN weapons that Mr. Trump is likely to declare that Turkey is a terrorist organization?
​

I think the next step is Turkey leaving...or being forced to leave...NATO.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Good, our relations with Turkey tend to come at a consequence and I have zero issue moving away from all these entangling alliances we have causing issue after issue.

 

[ecofarm]

"Mother said she'd get me a nice Mig."

**** it. Let Turkey go.

The new Iron Curtain runs from Libya to Syria.

 

[Casper]

I think the next step is Turkey leaving...or being forced to leave...NATO.

Why would they because they were forced to buy from another Nation than from the US. FYI, trump already has the NATO Nations PO'ed at him and he is talking more tactics on them, trump could not do a better job of breaking from NATO is he tried, or is that the end game. And Putin smiles...

 

[Mycroft]

Why would they because they were forced to buy from another Nation than from the US. FYI, trump already has the NATO Nations PO'ed at him and he is talking more tactics on them, trump could not do a better job of breaking from NATO is he tried, or is that the end game. And Putin smiles...

Nobody is forcing Turkey to buy from anyone, but NATO does have rules about systems interconnecting with other systems. The Russian system does not interconnect with NATO systems.

If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules.

 

[Deuce]

Oh no, Lockheed Martin stock might drop a point or two. Everyone panic.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Nobody is forcing Turkey to buy from anyone, but NATO does have rules about systems interconnecting with other systems. The Russian system does not interconnect with NATO systems.

If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules.

That is an interesting catch that hadn’t occurred to me.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Think they have figured out that the F35 is an expensive flying coffin with so many strings attached.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

The sarcastic response "Yes, but it's an **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** flying coffin with so many strings attached." that you might expect you will not get from me.

Please address your message to Messrs Trump and Boulton.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I think the next step is Turkey leaving...or being forced to leave...NATO.

Absolutely.

The US has too many friends and the Russians have too few.

It's just another example of Mr. Trump's brilliant strategy to "level the playing field".

 

[noonereal]

Turkey says it will look elsewhere if U.S. won't sell Patriots, F-35s

Putin wins again.

This is becoming common.

Thanks Donald!

 

[noonereal]

I think the next step is Turkey leaving...or being forced to leave...NATO.

What a big step backwards for the USA this would be.

But, we ar on that road, I agree.

 

[noonereal]

Good, our relations with Turkey tend to come at a consequence and I have zero issue moving away from all these entangling alliances we have causing issue after issue.

OMFG

I am not even gonna bother.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Nobody is forcing Turkey to buy from anyone, but NATO does have rules about systems interconnecting with other systems. The Russian system does not interconnect with NATO systems.

If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules.

You might be interested in:

According to the NATO Topic page on Interoperability: Connecting NATO's Forces:

NATO’s interoperability policy defines the term as the ability for Allies to act together coherently, effectively and efficiently to achieve tactical, operational and strategic objectives. Specifically, it enables forces, units and/or systems to operate together and allows them to share common doctrine and procedures, each others’ infrastructure and bases, and to be able to communicate. Interoperability reduces duplication, enables pooling of resources, and produces synergies among the 28 Allies, and whenever possible with partner countries.
​

I might be wrong, but that doesn't say anything whatsoever about "and must be made in the United States of America".

As soon as you can provide me with the link that you so obviously have to the full text (either English or French would be fine) of NATO STANAG 4312 (and which I don't have in anything other than a Chinese version that I do not fully trust and so will neither rely on or expect you to rely on), I'll be more than happy to see if I can agree with your "If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules." assertion of fact.

 

[Roadvirus]

I think the next step is Turkey leaving...or being forced to leave...NATO.

Agreed. Until they get rid of Eroded, Turkey should be booted from NATO.

 

[uptower]

I'm betting both Turkey and India will be bigger Su-57 customers than Russia

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

That is an interesting catch that hadn’t occurred to me.

Strangely enough, the only country (I'm assuming that Mycroft is speaking for the US government and is fully conversant with the exact contents of NATO STANAG 4312) that is putting forward that argument is the United States of America (and, to use an analogy, "One should always be leery of the claims made by the salesman for GM about the virtues of GM products and the defects of Ford products.").

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I'm betting both Turkey and India will be bigger Su-57 customers than Russia

Even though the chrome and dingle balls on Russian kit is nowhere near the quality of the chrome and dingle balls on American kit, the Russians have a reasonably good track record of actually delivering what they sold (within a reasonable time span of when they said they were going to deliver it), AND at the same price they sold it for.

Price conscious shoppers who want to ensure that their new toys will be delivered in time for the party DO take that into account.

 

[Mycroft]

You might be interested in:

According to the NATO Topic page on Interoperability: Connecting NATO's Forces:

NATO’s interoperability policy defines the term as the ability for Allies to act together coherently, effectively and efficiently to achieve tactical, operational and strategic objectives. Specifically, it enables forces, units and/or systems to operate together and allows them to share common doctrine and procedures, each others’ infrastructure and bases, and to be able to communicate. Interoperability reduces duplication, enables pooling of resources, and produces synergies among the 28 Allies, and whenever possible with partner countries.
​

I might be wrong, but that doesn't say anything whatsoever about "and must be made in the United States of America".

As soon as you can provide me with the link that you so obviously have to the full text (either English or French would be fine) of NATO STANAG 4312 (and which I don't have in anything other than a Chinese version that I do not fully trust and so will neither rely on or expect you to rely on), I'll be more than happy to see if I can agree with your "If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules." assertion of fact.

As I said...nobody is forcing Turkey to buy anything from anyone. Heck, Turkey if free to develop their own systems, as the UK, France and Germany do, as long as they comply with NATO rules...such as the one you presented.

That missile system from Russia does NOT comply with NATO rules.

 

[pamak]

Nobody is forcing Turkey to buy from anyone, but NATO does have rules about systems interconnecting with other systems. The Russian system does not interconnect with NATO systems.

If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules.

I think the issues that the US uses the f-35 as a negotiating chip and it has nothing to do with Turkey violating NATO rules. And do not get me wrong! I am all for not selling F-35s to Turkey!

Greece has bought Russian A/A systems, and nobody questioned it

Israel trained against Russian-made air defense system in Greece: sources - Reuters

JERUSALEM/ATHENS (Reuters) - Israel has quietly tested ways of defeating an advanced air-defence system that Russia has deployed in the Middle East and that could limit Israel’s ability to strike in Syria or Iran, military and diplomatic sources said.

The sources said a Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system, sold to Cyprus 18 years ago but now located on the Greek island of Crete, had been activated during joint drills between the Greek and Israeli air forces in April-May this year.

The activation allowed Israel’s warplanes to test how the S-300’s lock-on system works, gathering data on its powerful tracking radar and how it might be blinded or bluffed.

One defense source in the region said Greece had done so at the request of the United States, Israel’s chief ally, on at least one occasion in the past year. It was unclear whether Israel had shared its findings with its allies.

The S-400 which Turkey wants to get is the updated version of the S-300

By the way along with the S-300, Greece has also other Russian systems of air defense foe medium and short range

 

[uptower]

Even though the chrome and dingle balls on Russian kit is nowhere near the quality of the chrome and dingle balls on American kit, the Russians have a reasonably good track record of actually delivering what they sold (within a reasonable time span of when they said they were going to deliver it), AND at the same price they sold it for.

Price conscious shoppers who want to ensure that their new toys will be delivered in time for the party DO take that into account.

No it won't be as shiny as the US kit, but Russia's been too broke to buy its own planes for a while now.

 

[Mycroft]

I think the issues that the US uses the f-35 as a negotiating chip and it has nothing to do with Turkey violating NATO rules. And do not get me wrong! I am all for not selling F-35s to Turkey!

Greece has bought Russian A/A systems, and nobody questioned it

Israel trained against Russian-made air defense system in Greece: sources - Reuters

JERUSALEM/ATHENS (Reuters) - Israel has quietly tested ways of defeating an advanced air-defence system that Russia has deployed in the Middle East and that could limit Israel’s ability to strike in Syria or Iran, military and diplomatic sources said.

The sources said a Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system, sold to Cyprus 18 years ago but now located on the Greek island of Crete, had been activated during joint drills between the Greek and Israeli air forces in April-May this year.

The activation allowed Israel’s warplanes to test how the S-300’s lock-on system works, gathering data on its powerful tracking radar and how it might be blinded or bluffed.

One defense source in the region said Greece had done so at the request of the United States, Israel’s chief ally, on at least one occasion in the past year. It was unclear whether Israel had shared its findings with its allies.

The S-400 which Turkey wants to get is the updated version of the S-300

By the way along with the S-300, Greece has also other Russian systems of air defense foe medium and short range

Well, if Turkey's purpose in buying this system is to allow NATO to test it and develop ways to deal with it, I say okay...but I haven't heard anything about that. Have you?

 

[pamak]

Well, if Turkey's purpose in buying this system is to allow NATO to test it and develop ways to deal with it, I say okay...but I haven't heard anything about that. Have you?

Nope, but it is natural to expect that in any NATO exercise in the Aegean or Baltic Sea, it will be very likely that NATO aircrafts will have the opportunity to test the S-400 since their long range covers big parts of such regions

Allied Maritime Command - Standing NATO Maritime Group 2 concludes participation in NAIAS 2018

Allied Maritime Command - NATO Groups exercise in the Black Sea

The issue here is that there is no good will and not that there are NATO regulations that prohibit Turkey from getting Russian systems.

 

[Casper]

Nobody is forcing Turkey to buy from anyone, but NATO does have rules about systems interconnecting with other systems. The Russian system does not interconnect with NATO systems.

If Turkey insists on buying the Russian system, they are violating NATO rules.

You mean like the French did for decades?