Trump Pardons Michael Flynn, Who Pleaded Guilty To Lying About Russia Contact

[Athanasius68]

There was a quid pro quo: Pulling back sanctions on Russia for their help during the election. You may have missed this key passage from Flynn's sentencing memo.

View attachment 67306774

Mueller is very clear that that Flynn's wrongdoing took place during the transition - not during the campaign. He's specifying campaign here because the horse trading between Flynn and Kislyak, the requests he conveyed and Russia's response to the requests, was tied to the campaign. This links Flynn’s phone calls, during which he coordinated with Kislyak to undermine the Obama administration’s sanctions on Russia, to what happened before: Russia’s support for President Donald Trump during the campaign.

It would seem then that Flynn didn't lie because he was trying to cover up his actions. He lied because telling the truth would have exposed the Trump campaign's collusion with the Russian government. Flynn's lies were crucially "material" to Mueller's investigation into Trump Campaign ties to the Russians. Not transition ties.

We already know that by Dec 2016, it was concluded that Mr. Flynn was not involved in any conspiracy with Russia.
There was no evidence that he had committed a crime or was a national security threat.
As such, there was no basis to interview him, thus nothing he said was "material" to anything, thus whatever he said could not constitute a violation of the law.

 

[Athanasius68]

QUOTE="OscarLevant, post: 1073069474, member: 32509"]
He's a spy, doesn't matter what his front is.

[/QUOTE]

Ok. If that is the standard...

Then don't defend Trump for hiring him.

Never have.

If you going to deflect off onto tangents about Steele, Brennan, Schiff, be specific.

No tangents. And I already have been specific-- Mr. Steele's main source was a guy the FBI had investigated for being a Russian agent.[/QUOTE]

 

[Athanasius68]

The Mueller Report found that Kilimnik was "connected" to Russian intelligence agencies and the Senate Intel Cmte report went further and identified him as a Russian Intel officer. So that that says about Steele is that he was onto him and for Brennan, Schiff and Comey that they were rightly concerned about protecting this country as opposed to the at least Flynn, Manafort and their mob boss, Donnie The Dirtbag Trump. And people like your are still across here running interference, making up excuses and spreading lies for that scum.

We know that Steele, Brennan, Comey and Schiff were themselves duped by a Russian agent.

By any objective standards, their being deceived is far greater problem than Manafort being deceived because:
1. Manafort was NOT an intelligence pro, whereas Steele, Brennan, Comey and I suppose Schiff are.

2. Manafort had no government position while being duped, whereas Brennan, Comey and Schiff did.

3. Manafort sent some polling data to Russia. Steele, Brennan, Comey and Schiff accepted the authenticity of information from this Russian agent which resulted in:
A. A FISA warrant being approved on an American citizen on the theory that that American, as a member of the Trump campaign, was involved in cyberespionage on behalf of Russia.
B. It was used as evidence to support the theory that Russia wished Mr. Trump to win in 2016.
C. It caused great political division in this country.

 

[Jezcoe]

We already know that by Dec 2016, it was concluded that Mr. Flynn was not involved in any conspiracy with Russia.
There was no evidence that he had committed a crime or was a national security threat.
As such, there was no basis to interview him, thus nothing he said was "material" to anything, thus whatever he said could not constitute a violation of the law.

And then they heard him on the phone with Kislyak undermining the foreign policy of the sitting President.

 

[Jezcoe]

We know that Steele, Brennan, Comey and Schiff were themselves duped by a Russian agent.

By any objective standards, their being deceived is far greater problem than Manafort being deceived because:
1. Manafort was NOT an intelligence pro, whereas Steele, Brennan, Comey and I suppose Schiff are.

2. Manafort had no government position while being duped, whereas Brennan, Comey and Schiff did.

3. Manafort sent some polling data to Russia. Steele, Brennan, Comey and Schiff accepted the authenticity of information from this Russian agent which resulted in:
A. A FISA warrant being approved on an American citizen on the theory that that American, as a member of the Trump campaign, was involved in cyberespionage on behalf of Russia.
B. It was used as evidence to support the theory that Russia wished Mr. Trump to win in 2016.
C. It caused great political division in this country.

Manafort worked with people like Kilimnik for years.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[Athanasius68]

And then they heard him on the phone with Kislyak undermining the foreign policy of the sitting President.

No he didn't. Unless you think the foreign policy of the USA after Trump's victory was for Russia to go ballistic on the USA

 

[Athanasius68]

Manafort worked with people like Kilimnik for years.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

Maybe he did.
But so did folks like Steele and Brennan...
The larger question is whether everyone was duped by a Russian operation that targeted both campaigns.

 

[Jezcoe]

Maybe he did.
But so did folks like Steele and Brennan...
The larger question is whether everyone was duped by a Russian operation that targeted both campaigns.

There is a difference.

Steele and Brennan didn't hand inside polling information over to Russian Intelligence.

That is a pretty bad thing to do.

 

[Jezcoe]

No he didn't. Unless you think the foreign policy of the USA after Trump's victory was for Russia to go ballistic on the USA

Imagine if people from the Biden team were contacting foreign adversaries and making policy that was antithetical to President Trump.

It would be a bad thing and likely we would agree.

 

[Athanasius68]

There is a difference.

Steele and Brennan didn't hand inside polling information over to Russian Intelligence.

That is a pretty bad thing to do.

Brennan, Comey and Schiff did much worse than Manafort-- they fashioned USA policy based upon information from a suspected Russian agent.
Steele did worse than Manafort-- he is supposedly an intelligence pro. Manafort isn't.

 

[Athanasius68]

Imagine if people from the Biden team were contacting foreign adversaries and making policy that was antithetical to President Trump.

It would be a bad thing and likely we would agree.

We can read throughout DP posts on this very subject-- worries that Trump will fashion things so as to make it difficult for President Biden.

Flynn meanwhile did nothing of the sort.

 

[Jezcoe]

Brennan, Comey and Schiff did much worse than Manafort-- they fashioned USA policy based upon information from a suspected Russian agent.
Steele did worse than Manafort-- he is supposedly an intelligence pro. Manafort isn't.

The only legal impact that the Steele dossier had was on the Carter Page FISA warrant.

I know that people want to make a big bugaboo about it, but in reality it was only used in that instance. So a dude who in the past has been up to eyeballs in Russian Intelligence who had already left the campaign and was traveling to Russia.... I would be surprised if they didn’t look into stuff like that seeing as what was going on in 2016.

 

[Jezcoe]

We can read throughout DP posts on this very subject-- worries that Trump will fashion things so as to make it difficult for President Biden.

Flynn meanwhile did nothing of the sort.

Yeah he did.

He undermined the policy towards Russia and got Russia to veto a resolution about Israeli Settlement in the UN.

He was conducting foreign policy before he should have been and then he lied about it.

If what he was doing was all well and good.... then why did he lie?

 

[Stealers Wheel]

The judge from what I read can dismiss the pardon and throw Flynn in jail if he wants.

Which I would do. Traitors deserve more than jail time though.

I would very much like to read what you have read. A judge can dismiss a pardon? Really? Please post a link.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Do you understand why?The man had the force of government against him, with unlimited funds, while he lost everything, including his home, and then they were going after his son. What could the man do?

"Show me the man and I'll show you the crime" is strategy the left, as usual, is pursuing. That applies to any opposition whether it's in the media or on the city streets, never realizing at all that 'actions have consequences'. https://www.oxfordeagle.com/2018/05/09/show-me-the-man-and-ill-show-you-the-crime/

Flynn didn't lose shit! Simply being accused of a crime doesn't drive one into poverty. This is a fantasy to convince the gullible that Flynn lied to the court to nobily protect his family.

The irreconcilable facts are either he lied to the FBI or he lied to the court. Either way, he lied. And your side is arguing that Flynn lied to the court with the full knowledge and blessing of the DOJ and the FBI and now we're all just supposed to "Oh well, never mind" and walk away.

Someone, either Flynn or Flynn and the DOJ perpetrated a fraud on the court. That cannot be ignored. Someone must be held to account. According the AG, it was the DOJ who knowingly put Flynn on the stand to lie to the judge, and yet AG Barr has made no move to prosecute the DOJ employees (and officers of the court) who did this.

Part of a plea bargain cannot include "plead guilty to something you did not do and we'll go easy on your family." A plea bargain has to actually include a real crime for which there is evidence to support a prosecution. That is why the defendant is required to testify under oath to the details of the crime (allocution) to which he pleading guilty. It cannot be "Yeah, your honor, I did whatever it is they said I did."

 

[Atomic Kid]

We already know that by Dec 2016, it was concluded that Mr. Flynn was not involved in any conspiracy with Russia.
There was no evidence that he had committed a crime or was a national security threat.
As such, there was no basis to interview him, thus nothing he said was "material" to anything, thus whatever he said could not constitute a violation of the law.

And then in early January there was evidence. And that by itself was basis enough. Add to that the Deputy National Security Adviser Mcfarland, White House Press Secretary Priebus, and Vice President Pence, all giving statements and narrations about the nature of the calls to the national media that the FBI knew not be true and now you have the makings for a potential full blown national security crisis. Not to mention Flynn and others on the Transition team were already lying to cover up those calls in real time weeks before the FBI came calling.

 

[Tahuyaman]

No, he was not tried and convicted. He plead guilty. You do know that pleading guilty is the same as being tried and convicted, don't you?

He avoided a trial. There was no conviction by a jury. Plus the prosecution wants to void the plea. A hack political activist judge is acting as the prosecutor. He should be impeached.

 

[Jezcoe]

He avoided a trial. There was no conviction by a jury. Plus the prosecution wants to void the plea. A hack political activist judge is acting as the prosecutor. He should be impeached.

The plea has been accepted... twice.

Why are they trying to call backsies?

 

[Tahuyaman]

Sullivan's court WAS court of law and Flynn was waiting for his sentence. It seems you confuse the absence of the jury with the absence of court.

Flynn was not convicted of anything in a court of law. This is a fact.

 

[Tahuyaman]

The plea has been accepted... twice.

Why are they trying to call backsies?

I don’t do baby talk.

 

[pamak]

Flynn was not convicted of anything in a court of law. This is a fact.

Let me remind you a fact:

This is your quote and I bolded a specific part which I challenged in a previous post.

Trump Pardons Michael Flynn, Who Pleaded Guilty To Lying About Russia Contact

A direct quote from the Mueller report: "Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released...

debatepolitics.com

Flynn was not convicted. No court found him guilty of anything. He pled out because he lost everything he had and they were next going to target his son. Everyone in America should be appalled by what a corrupt government did to that man.

As it must have been clear by now, Sulivan's court DID find Flynn guilty and even denied him the motion to withdraw the guilty plea.
This is a fact too!

 

[mrdeltoid]

McCain was a guy who cheated on his disfigured wife. And Obama was the super secret Muslim who who was going to destroy America until he peacefully handed it to Trump.

Not sure what your point is here? That everyone is the same? McCain wasnt better than Obama, but he was worlds better than Trump.

This is why the GOP lost Arizona at the presidential level. Trump liked to shit on those who couldnt beat Obama, but then shit on Obama, when Trump wouldnt run against Obama either.

One day you will come to terms with the idea that Trump wasnt godsent. He was a salesman, with a grift.

Let me try it this way:
MY POINT WAS THE HYPOCRISY OF THE MEDIAS TREATMENT OF MCCAIN BEFORE AND AFTER TRUMP.

 

[Hatuey]

Let me try it this way:
MY POINT WAS THE HYPOCRISY OF THE MEDIAS TREATMENT OF MCCAIN BEFORE AND AFTER TRUMP.

But the medias treatment of McCain was based on who he was dealing with, as opposed to who Trump was. Not everything is about Trump - who other people are matters.

Obama was better than McCain, McCain was better than Trump.

What is your problem with all this?

 

[Tahuyaman]

Let me remind you a fact:

This is your quote and I bolded a specific part which I challenged in a previous post.

Trump Pardons Michael Flynn, Who Pleaded Guilty To Lying About Russia Contact

A direct quote from the Mueller report: "Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released...

debatepolitics.com

As it must have been clear by now, Sulivan's court DID find Flynn guilty and even denied him the motion to withdraw the guilty plea.
This is a fact too!

Let me remind you of a fact. Flynn was not convicted through a trial by jury in a court of law.

 

[pamak]

Let me remind you of a fact. Flynn was not convicted through a trial by jury in a court of law.

The fact is that either out of ignorance or deliberately, you misled or lied when you claimed that

Tahuyaman said:
... No court found him guilty of anything

That claim is different from the trivial one you make now that " Flynn was not convicted through a trial by jury in a court of law."
And as I already explained, that claim is wrong.