Trump: I could declassify documents by thinking about it

[LostInSeattle]

Show me where the exemption is.

Not Even the President Can Declassify Nuclear Secrets

Fan letters and snapshots are one matter, and launch codes are another—and here the details of classification might decide just how much trouble Trump is in.

www.theatlantic.com

He cannot.

 

[JasperL]

No, that's irrelevant. What the hell does it matter what Garland thinks? His goal is to get Trump, like most Democrats. They don't give a crap what our Constitution says. Who is going to stop them?

It's not about the constitution. As POTUS, while POTUS, he can declassify anything he wants.

What's at issue is what it takes to get that done. Thinking about it while taking a dump isn't an order. It's a thought, and thoughts cannot be orders. No one is put on notice by a thought, so there's no scenario in which a thought, allegedly recalled years later, attested to by no one because the thought never left Trump's head, can be legally binding on anyone.

It's scary that people actually take this seriously. The only proper response to an assertion, "I thought about it, therefore it was done" is

 

[soap box]

It's not about the constitution. As POTUS, while POTUS, he can declassify anything he wants.

What's at issue is what it takes to get that done. Thinking about it while taking a dump isn't an order. It's a thought, and thoughts cannot be orders. No one is put on notice by a thought, so there's no scenario in which a thought, allegedly recalled years later, attested to by no one because the thought never left Trump's head, can be legally binding on anyone.

It's scary that people actually take this seriously. The only proper response to an assertion, "I thought about it, therefore it was done" is

Isn't this 'thinking' in line with everything we seen?
We wish trump won in 2020 , so we think there was fraud.
We wish trump was innocent so we think the FBI planted documents.
We wish trump was innocent so we think Cheney is corrupt.
We wish trump was innocent because we think Hillary did something,

Like you noted Jasper, I thought about it, therefore it was done"

 

[Galactic Spin]

Personal attacks don't win any arguments.

Saying that your position is dumb is not a personal attack. By the way, did I say your position was dumb? I meant it was painfully stupid.

 

[snakestretcher]

Double locked doors at Mara Lago, a place that is crawling with Secret Service agents and gate guarded compared to a rat-infested warehouse that could chew through boxes of classified material? Really?

The man is an ex-president. he is not a Russian spy. nor is he a Sandy Berger. (look him up)

A golf resort is not a secure government facility where sensitive materials must, by law, be stored. The National Archive is such a place. Despite repeated requests Trump refused to return the bulk of the material he had no right whatsoever to retain on a civilian property. That's why the Feds went in. 'Double locked' doors is no excuse. Ignorance of the law is no excuse either. Trump ignored the law pertaining to the handling and storage of classified material, presumably for his own amusement.

 

[Mika-El]

It's simply wrong to say a POTUS is bound by any XO by FPOTUS.. executive orders can bind subordiant executive branch materials -but one POTUS can never bond the next ,because the next POTUS has his own plenary power as theExecutive branch powers are invested in the president him/herself

And there is no question a POTUS can declassify at will -so they arent bound by any bureaucratic markings etc.

Where i do agree with you ,and the SM and 11th have all said TRUMP can't say "well i ordered them declassified en toto"
without some kind of memorializing ..So I dont think Trump did meet that standard and declassify

PRA"violations" aren't criminal (they are administrative) so if that's all this is..OK

And I've gone over the Espionage act in depth - unless Trump had intent to "harm or advantage" the USA or another country
it aint Espionage.. the exception is "gross negligence" (subsection f) that Comey didnot charge Hillary with because even though no "intent" is in that subsection..well you know the rest

To clarify I have never stated violation of Executive orders is a criminal act or have I said one President is jlegallly bound by the actions of another President.


To further clarify:

1-the type of classification category issue is not material to the determination of violating the Presidential Records Act-the possession of any Presidential document by Trump once he no longer was President and left office and took them with him proves the violation of the Presidential Records Act. He has already admitted to violating this Act.

2-I have always advised that Trump's use of Presidential documents after he left office might with additional evidence of his intent, prove espionage a distinct legal issue of criminality.

3-I have said and I will suggest it again the inherent subject matter of specific documents, i.e.. the personal information on President Marcon of France, the detailed nuclear and military profile of another sovereign nature could create a criminal offence in that the very posession of such info compromised and edangered to the best interests of the US and its security even though they may never have been transferred to a third party for sale, benefit or can be shown to have caused a direct action as a result detrimental to the US. Why?. The fact that Trump has them when he is NOT President, is sufficient to cause damage to the best interests of the US because now foreign nations when dealing with the US must assume secret confidential info could remain with former Presidents no longer in office. Not only that imagine what foreign governments are thinking-what if that info was about our leader or military details sitting around in an unsecured office....

I also think his repeated business dealings in Moscow which refinanced his entire empire compromised him and turned him into a dupe for Russia.

How much was manipulated out of him by false flattery, how much by out and out coercion remains to be seen.

I think another vital part of the story yet to come out is who and how Trump met Melania and who her father was and how he travelled with Donny everywhere serving as his "advisor".

The true story is emerging and will surface slowly in the next 10 years and long after Trump and Putin are dead.

 

[Mika-El]

A golf resort is not a secure government facility where sensitive materials must, by law, be stored. The National Archive is such a place. Despite repeated requests Trump refused to return the bulk of the material he had no right whatsoever to retain on a civilian property. That's why the Feds went in. 'Double locked' doors is no excuse. Ignorance of the law is no excuse either. Trump ignored the law pertaining to the handling and storage of classified material, presumably for his own amusement.

Well I have nothing framed from Fat Boy Kim of North Korea ( a favourite of yours) but I have pictures I have framed in my office from the Finnish Prime Minister and the head of the Economic Union. I also have one with the Queen of England.



me and Sanna



me and Ursula



me and the Queen

 

[post]

His forgiveness of student loans. his mandate that everyone be vaccinated and to fire brave first responders who aren't. There are many many more.

LOL ! Oh, the humanity! You never post in objection to E.O.'s obviously unconstitutional intended to make the maximum number avoidably suffer, motivated by calculated stimulation of racist, xenophobe political supporters!

The Cruelty Is the Point - The Atlantic​

https://www.theatlantic.com › ideas › archive › 2018/10
Oct 3, 2018 — The cruelty of the Trump administration's policies, and the ritual rhetorical flaying of his targets before his supporters, are intimately ...

Trump's Timeline of Hate - Human Rights Campaign​

https://www.hrc.org › resources › trumps-timeline-of-hate
Trump signed an executive order directing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to begin constructing a wall along the Mexico-U.S. border. He also ordered ...

 

[JasperL]

There is no required process for Presidential declassification.

None of the "rules" created by a President apply to the sitting President.

As I've already argued in this this thread, he cannot simply "think" it is declassified, but he can ACT to indicate something is declassified.

Say by telling his staff to pack such and so "classified" documents for his use after leaving office. His mere ACTION declassifies them as would him writing any memo, or making a public announcement of the contents without any requirement like saying before such announcement "I declassify!"

But what you're asserting is he can say to someone, "Pack up those boxes, with ??????? documents marked classified" therefore they ARE declassified. Which ones? You can't get out of the starting gate.

If he conveys to Biden that he took ????? documents marked classified, some at the highest levels, within hours after taking control, the executive branch's next step is to 1) demand now private citizen identify those docs, and 2) return them NOW.

At the very least, the current executive branch has to be put on notice that those hundreds or more classified secrets must now be treated as in the public domain, and known to friend and foe, so they can take appropriate actions. The reasons for this are obvious, but the easiest example is to consider a list or other documentation of our covert agents overseas.

That requires disclosing to the now current executive branch in some fashion exactly what marked classified docs are in those boxes and will soon be held by a private citizen with no more right to possess or read highly classified information as you or me. Furthermore, the current executive branch has the authority to classify what they want, and so overrule the now private citizen's right or prerogative to take a list of, perhaps, human intelligence sources (i.e. covert agents) and frame them as decorations for MAL, but they can't reclassify ???????? or protect against further disclosure ????????

There is a critical distinction between an action that reveals classified information to the public - "writing a memo (presumably for public release AND RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC), or making a public announcement" - and putting ?????? document in a box and moving it anywhere. The latter reveals nothing to anyone.

Finally, none of this excuses Trump lying to the grand jury, asserting that he did return all documents marked classified (then keeping 100), exactly so the current executive branch can take appropriate action. He is a private citizen and has no more right or prerogative to ignore a grand jury subpoena as you or I do, which is none. If demanded to return those documents, he must either comply or object to the subpoena within the bounds of THE LAW, which does not include instructing the lawyer to lie her ass off on Trump's behalf to the grand jury. In no scenario is that within Trump's legal rights. And none of this changes the PRA that gives the NARA the exclusive possession and control over all presidential records, including the documents marked and presumed still classified.

That latter is kind of key because if he'd boxed them up and transferred the government docs (and documents marked classified cannot possibly fit into the 'personal records' as defined in the law) to NARA as required by THE LAW, there is no issue. So Trump violated the law by first retaining all those documents, then by lying to the grand jury. Those are at minimum. That's even if by some magic trick he CAN declassify it with his mind, or as you prefer to frame it, by some arbitrary action that puts no one on notice what docs are now presumed in the public domain, such as by simply moving ?????? documents from A to B.

 

[Paradoxical]

Having access to files with classified information as a former president is legal and posters even posted the relevant parts of the law which show that it is legal (assumming of course that the sitting president has no objections). In Trump's case we are talking about storing and CONTROLLING (owning) the files with classified information in an unsecured location (meaning location that does not satisfy the security standards of storing highly classified information).. You try to change the subject because you are losing!

Again, see some of the requirements for areas designed to keep classified info

https://www.wbdg.org/FFC/NAVFAC/ATESS/secure_spaces_11_2016.pdf

Security for storing such documents is not satisfied by just having a lock....

He never had any objection to giving them to the NA. They were working on it (just like Obama is working on his records) and the NA and FBI and DOJ double-crossed him.

 

[Paradoxical]

If I say the sky is coloured scarlet do you take my word for it, or do you actually check? If Trump says he can declassify anything at will, with just a thought, do you take his word, or check what the law actually says?

There is none.

 

[Paradoxical]

January 2021 to June 2022, the room was not double locked.

An additional lock (if there even was an original) wasn't added until after the June NARA/FBi visit where the FPOTUS failed to fully comply with the Grand Jury Subpoena by request of the NARA/FBI.
.
.
.
.
I do appreciate that team FPOTUS did put the delayed second lock on the door while DOJ was processing the search warrant request though.

WW

and.........? Want to send Trump to the corner?

 

[Paradoxical]

I already answered your post earlier. I simply quote it again to point that Rawley "liked it"

So, after Rawley brought here the initial links with the supposedly "a-ha" moment based on Obama's letter and after his nonsense has been refuted, he continues to hide even though he still visits this thread and reads the conversations, including my responses which you quote.

This is a clear indication that some posters who come here with a desire to discuss things they find in their sources are not really interested in exchanging information or in debating. They only care about supporting Trump and when the discussion takes a turn which refutes their initial deceptive claims, they just lose their appetite for any discussion

This is why I have so many posts. I answer nearly every post, no matter how dumb the post is.

 

[Paradoxical]

He ran out of gas. Here, look at the sputtering...

You should stick to a topic you know as well.

 

[Mycroft]

Judge: Trump tweet did not declassify CIA program for Syrian rebels

The judge rejected arguments that Trump effectively confirmed the existence of the program when he used his Twitter account last July to counter a Washington Post story.

www.politico.com

By JOSH GERSTEIN
07/02/2018 01:43 PM EDT
Updated: 07/02/2018 01:47 PM EDT

"A tweet from President Donald Trump disputing aspects of a news report about a CIA program to aid Syrian rebels did not declassify the program or undermine the government’s legal authority to keep details about it secret, a federal judge ruled in an opinion released Monday.
U.S. District Court Judge Andrew Carter Jr. rejected arguments that Trump effectively confirmed the existence of the program when he used his Twitter account last July to counter a Washington Post story that reported Trump’s decision to end the effort and suggested that the move was a concession to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“The Amazon Washington Post fabricated the facts on my ending massive, dangerous, and wasteful payments to Syrian rebels fighting Assad,” Trump wrote, referring to Syrian President Bashar Assad..."



View attachment 67415693

From Politico, above :

"...did not declassify the program or undermine the government’s legal authority to keep details about it secret, a federal judge ruled in an opinion released Monday.
U.S. District Court Judge Andrew Carter Jr. rejected arguments that Trump effectively confirmed the existence of the program when he used his Twitter account last July to counter a Washington Post story that reported Trump’s decision to end the effort and suggested that the move was a concession to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“The Amazon Washington Post fabricated the facts on my ending massive, dangerous, and wasteful payments to Syrian rebels fighting Assad,” Trump wrote, referring to Syrian President Bashar Assad..."

These are irrelevant issues.

Dismissed.

 

[JasperL]

Personal attacks don't win any arguments.



No! YOU are the one who keep saying that.

I am "literally saying" that by a President ACTING like a document has been declassified makes it declassified.

For example, talking about the information to persons without clearance, or announcing the information in public.

In this case as simply as saying to someone, "Pack these documents up, I intend to use them for... (publishing in a book, legal action against so and so, evidence of misconduct in the DOJ), etc."

Pack what documents up? Pack ????? documents up, so therefore ????? information must now be treated by the executive branch as in the public domain? How is the executive branch to know what previously classified information is in those boxes if there's no record?

And it's also a stretch to invent the 'Pack these documents up, I intend to use them for....' narrative, when there's no evidence even that discussion happened. Did he tell someone to pack up specific documents? If so there's a list, and Trump can point to that list, but that list doesn't exist. What appears to have happened is Trump effectively instructed someone to pack EVERYTHING up, including boxes with ????? contents and then deliver it all to MAL, contrary to THE LAW, the PRA.

Your position is Trump declassified some of the most closely guarded secrets of the USG by accident, with no more knowledge of what he just made effectively in the public domain than he might have jammed that document in a box sometime in the past 4 years.

 

[Paradoxical]

The election was stolen. Trump said so. He also told you that Mexico would pay for his wall. Neither were true; why? Because I checked.

Covid was over longago. Our evil politicians are using the canard to spend money lavishly on those who are irresponsible.

 

[JasperL]

He never had any objection to giving them to the NA. They were working on it (just like Obama is working on his records) and the NA and FBI and DOJ double-crossed him.

He lied to the grand jury. Trump is a moron, who didn't believe the law applied to him. No one double crossed anyone. When POS liars lie in response to grand jury subpoenas, the DOJ treats them like POS liars who are not operating in good faith, and so DoJ seized the documents. Fault? Trump.

 

[Mycroft]

Aaaaaaaaand, you're back, as predicted, saying the same thing without acknowledging the 10,000 responses you've already gotten to this same tired argument.

I think prehaps you deserve a song like Paradox has, maybe something along the lines of "Here you come again". What do you think?

All I can do is present the facts...even when there are "10,000 responses" from people who disregard the facts.

 

[Paradoxical]

A golf resort is not a secure government facility where sensitive materials must, by law, be stored. The National Archive is such a place. Despite repeated requests Trump refused to return the bulk of the material he had no right whatsoever to retain on a civilian property. That's why the Feds went in. 'Double locked' doors is no excuse. Ignorance of the law is no excuse either. Trump ignored the law pertaining to the handling and storage of classified material, presumably for his own amusement.

A vacant furniture warehouse is far better. Most likely vacant because it's in a crap area prone to break-ins and theft at night.

 

[Paradoxical]

LOL ! Oh, the humanity! You never post in objection to E.O.'s obviously unconstitutional intended to make the maximum number avoidably suffer, motivated by calculated stimulation of racist, xenophobe political supporters!

The Cruelty Is the Point - The Atlantic​

https://www.theatlantic.com › ideas › archive › 2018/10
Oct 3, 2018 — The cruelty of the Trump administration's policies, and the ritual rhetorical flaying of his targets before his supporters, are intimately ...

Trump's Timeline of Hate - Human Rights Campaign​

https://www.hrc.org › resources › trumps-timeline-of-hate
Trump signed an executive order directing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to begin constructing a wall along the Mexico-U.S. border. He also ordered ...

Too much stuff there. Sorry, I am way too busy to look at several links with no excerpts. I'm sure you understand.

 

[Paradoxical]

He lied to the grand jury. Trump is a moron, who didn't believe the law applied to him. No one double crossed anyone. When POS liars lie in response to grand jury subpoenas, the DOJ treats them like POS liars who are not operating in good faith, and so DoJ seized the documents. Fault? Trump.

He lied to the grand jury? Link please

 

[Cope]

It's not about the constitution. As POTUS, while POTUS, he can declassify anything he wants.

What's at issue is what it takes to get that done. Thinking about it while taking a dump isn't an order. It's a thought, and thoughts cannot be orders. No one is put on notice by a thought, so there's no scenario in which a thought, allegedly recalled years later, attested to by no one because the thought never left Trump's head, can be legally binding on anyone.

It's scary that people actually take this seriously. The only proper response to an assertion, "I thought about it, therefore it was done" is

I think you have three groups of people (at least) arguing this.

You have some asserting, as you do, that there needs to be some procedure. I don't disagree with that, however, there isn't one and without that procedure, his power is literally whatever he claims it is (and can at least attest to in court that he did)
You have another group saying he doesn't have the power.
And then the group arguing he does.

 

[WorldWatcher]

and.........? Want to send Trump to the corner?

Just to let you know that your claim of double-lock was lacking in correctness.

For 16 of the 18 months that the FPOTUS was in illegal possession of government property (which included classified documents), there was no double-lock.

But as I said, I appreciate that they installed one while the DOJ was getting the search warrant. Good on them.

WW

 

[Michael Cole]

You should stick to a topic you know as well.

Shoulda woulda coulda. I'm stoked for the blues festival this weekend.

Here. Something worthwhile.



Bonnie won't be there, but Carolyn's at the Tahoe Stage 3:00 tomorrow. Hell yeah.

You go back to whatever is you're doing.