dthmstr254
I'm a pig, a real pig.
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abraham was alive in 2500 bc!, i thought people werent alive, and the literal translation of the english words "I Am" into Hebrew is the word YHWH, which is used over 300 times in the old testament and new testament. that is too many times to explain the tense change by typosPeralin said:First of all, the tense change easily could've been a translation error. Second, even if ti was meant to be tha way, Jesus never says that he is God! Your quote about him coming before Abraham simply means that he existed for a while before he was born.
same quote as above, he used the word YHWH in the Hebrew translation of it.Perhaps God formed Jesus early, so that he could go over his plans with his son before he sends him to Earth. Or perhaps God was lonely "in the beginning" and decided to have a son. So Jesus was there with God, yet he was not God. These are some of many possibilities. Please find exactly where Jesus says that he is God. Then I will consider it.
in the moments that Jesus is most often depicted praying to God, it is used to teach a lesson, so he was bound by two laws, one that a Jewish man was required to follow, according to the Law and the Prophets, another name for the new testaments, and the law of ministers to teach in all that they do.WHAT?! If he was required to pray and talk to God, that means he is not God! What do you think he is doing, pryaing to himself, having a nice chat with himself? Asking himself to spare himself from the death that awaits? So WHO is it that Jesus is speaking to? It can't be God, becuase Jesus=God, right? So who is it?
read your history, the idea of the trinity, if you want to call it an idea, can be dated to long before they had contact with even the ancestors of the hindusNo, of course it isn't. Actually, I think Christians stole the idea from the Hindus. Not sure which came first, but I think it was the Hindu Trinity.
the son of God is first mentioned actually in Genesis, when he appeared to Abram/Abraham and promised they would birth a baby named isaac.No, I do not need evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. I believe that he is the Messiah. He is the one that God would send to help us. He was the real deal (as far as I believe). BUT, I do not think that he was God. He may be the SON of God, but that's a bit different. (BTW, did you ever think that maybe Jesus is called the "son of God" because God "had intercourse" with Mary? Just an idea.)
not by himself, and in the other two occasions of ascension into heaven, the Christ is walking with them, so technically, Jesus ascended three times, twice helping mortals.Jesus could easily be the son of God. After all, are we not all sons of God? Did God not create every one of us (according to common belief)? And Jesus may be the Messiah, who was predicted to come to save us. And maybe Jesus did die on the cross and rise again to save us from our sins. And maybe he did ascend into heaven after 40 days. But couldn't he do all that without being God?
i feel real sorry for you, cause technically, Jesus could not save us from our sins if he was not God as you hold. it would mean he had sin in his life, and that he was not a spotless lamb anymore. and since you hold that he is not God, you are not a true Christian, cause to say one fact in the bible is not true is to say the entire bible is untrue. this puts you, sadly to say, in the list of people that will not be accepted into the Kingdom of HeavenHa! That's funny that you would say that. For 15 years I was a good Catholic, and then I found debatepolitics.com. It opened my eyes to reality. It has not changed my core beliefs, but it has let me choose for myself. Because of this, I do not consider myself Catholic any more (though technically I still am). I am still Christian, as I believe that Jesus was the Messiah. I just haven't found a group of Christians that fit my beliefs.
So no, I don't think I will be enlightened to believe in the trinity unless Jesus comes to me and tells me that he is God. Then I'd reconsider.
Peralin said:Ok so you do have evidence that Jesus and God are one. But answer this question please:
If Jesus was the same as God, why did Jesus pray to God? It doesn't make much sense to pray to yourself, does it?
dthmstr254 said:... technically, Jesus could not save us from our sins if he was not God as you hold. it would mean he had sin in his life ...
AlbqOwl said:Unless Jesus is YHWH in which case it all fits. :smile:
leejosepho said:So then, YHWH must have been praying to Himself when asking if "this cup might pass" just before He died and rose again three days later?
Who would have been in charge or "watching over" the rest of us and all of creation during His absence?
Also, was Houdini's use of assistants, tricks and distractions to escape his self-imposed deathtraps somehow inspired by YHWH's own doings?
Man does seem to want to be "just like 'God'", you know ...
AlbqOwl said:Your question was persistently asked (and answered by me) several pages back. I really don't want to type out all that again ...
AlbqOwl said:... but in a nutshell, God is God and is constrained by neither human limitations nor human understanding.
AlbqOwl said:When he chose to become fully human he shared the same limitations that all human share; thus, he had need of God as any human needs God and prayed for strength for himself and intercessory prayers for others. But as He always was, He remained.
AlbqOwl said:There is a vast difference between wanting to be 'just like God' or 'wanting to be God' and being God.
dthmstr254 said:abraham was alive in 2500 bc!, i thought people werent alive, and the literal translation of the english words "I Am" into Hebrew is the word YHWH, which is used over 300 times in the old testament and new testament. that is too many times to explain the tense change by typos
dthmstr254 said:same quote as above, he used the word YHWH in the Hebrew translation of it.
when questioned by the philistines prior to his death, they asked if he was God and he said, "I Am."
dthmstr254 said:in the moments that Jesus is most often depicted praying to God, it is used to teach a lesson, so he was bound by two laws, one that a Jewish man was required to follow, according to the Law and the Prophets, another name for the new testaments, and the law of ministers to teach in all that they do.
dthmstr254 said:read your history, the idea of the trinity, if you want to call it an idea, can be dated to long before they had contact with even the ancestors of the hindus
dthmstr254 said:the son of God is first mentioned actually in Genesis, when he appeared to Abram/Abraham and promised they would birth a baby named isaac.
dthmstr254 said:not by himself, and in the other two occasions of ascension into heaven, the Christ is walking with them, so technically, Jesus ascended three times, twice helping mortals.
dthmstr254 said:i feel real sorry for you, cause technically, Jesus could not save us from our sins if he was not God as you hold. it would mean he had sin in his life, and that he was not a spotless lamb anymore. and since you hold that he is not God, you are not a true Christian, cause to say one fact in the bible is not true is to say the entire bible is untrue. this puts you, sadly to say, in the list of people that will not be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven
i meant before birth, sry for the confusion.Peralin said:I don't know what you mean by that first sentence. So what if Abraham was alive in 2500 BC? What does that have to do with anything?
"i though people werent alive"
YHWH is the most holy name for God, although i have reiterated that many times to you, you seem to be ignoring that, my word man, when did you last use your deductive reasoning skills.What does "I Am" have to do witht he trinity? God says "I Am", and so he is. DOES JESUS EVER SAY THAT HE IS GOD?
here are but a few:Exactly where is this in the Gospels? Please quote it.
by this point the Father's direct connection to Him was lost as he had to go through the crucifixion and bear my sins, God cannot look at sin, so he could not look at his Son as He was bearing our sins. this left the only other way of contacting God was prayerI would understand if it was only for teaching purposes, but why would Jesus pray alone in the garden when he knew that his disciples were sleeping? It obviously wasn't to show them how to do it then.
catholics werent around to create it when this "idea" was created.Ok, whatever. Either way, it was nto a Catholic-based idea. Which means that it was made up by Catholics to explain the unexplainable. I may have been wrong with the facts, but my point still stands.
Great. That's the "son of god", not GOD!
it was my response to this:How is that relevant?
Jesus could easily be the son of God. After all, are we not all sons of God? Did God not create every one of us (according to common belief)? And Jesus may be the Messiah, who was predicted to come to save us. And maybe Jesus did die on the cross and rise again to save us from our sins. And maybe he did ascend into heaven after 40 days. But couldn't he do all that without being God?
NOT VERY MERCIFUL!!!!!?????!!!!!Perhaps. But if God only allows into his kingdom the people who believe that Jesus was God based on almost no evidence whatsoever, then he is not a very meciful god.
dthmstr254 said:i meant before birth, sry for the confusion.
dthmstr254 said:YHWH is the most holy name for God, although i have reiterated that many times to you, you seem to be ignoring that, my word man, when did you last use your deductive reasoning skills.
premise 1: YHWH is God's most holy name
premise 2: Jesus refers to himself as YHWH
conclusion: Jesus calls himself God/says He is God
how hard is this to understand?
dthmstr254 said:Mark 14:61-63:
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
dthmstr254 said:i meant before birth, sry for the confusion.
What are you talking about? Of course people are alive. Please explain.
YHWH is the most holy name for God, although i have reiterated that many times to you, you seem to be ignoring that, my word man, when did you last use your deductive reasoning skills.
premise 1: YHWH is God's most holy name
premise 2: Jesus refers to himself as YHWH
conclusion: Jesus calls himself God/says He is God
how hard is this to understand?
here are but a few:
Mark 14:61-63:
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
dthmstr254 said:Luke 22:69-71 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
70Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
dthmstr254 said:John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
dthmstr254 said:John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
need i go on?
dthmstr254 said:by this point the Father's direct connection to Him was lost as he had to go through the crucifixion and bear my sins, God cannot look at sin, so he could not look at his Son as He was bearing our sins. this left the only other way of contacting God was prayer
dthmstr254 said:catholics werent around to create it when this "idea" was created.
dthmstr254 said:Son of God
dthmstr254 said:NOT VERY MERCIFUL!!!!!?????!!!!!
he came from heaven to earth, to show the way.
from the earth to the cross our debt to pay.
an unmerciful God would not do this.
Viper said:Phl 2:6-9
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Sorry it took this long to get back to you; I have been searching for this passage.
What we must realize is that The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. This is why we see all three throughout the Word of God. They are not three different personalities. In the above passage we see Christ in the Form of God, being equal with God.
We really have to exam the word reputation here. In Greek it is kenoo, meaning to make empty, to neutralize, make of none effect. You see, Jesus became a man, just as any other man except without sin. He surrendered his powers when he was a man on earth. This is why Jesus had to be totally dependant on the Father. This is why we see him praying to the Father. After his death he was fully restored to his glory.
Old and wise said:Pure and simple answer: Absolute fiction - the product of someone's imagination.
Peralin said:13:13= And Jesus was their master and their lord. He does not say that he is their God! Jesus was their lord, the king, who was expected to come to the people. In this way he is a lord, yet not a god.
So why would Jesus talk to God when he was alone? Why would he talk to HIMSELF if he were alone? What is there to gain from that? He is teaching nobody, only praying to HIMSELF! What response do you have to this?
Give me a break! I'm not going to capitalize every word that Catholics think are important. "son" is a word in the english dictionary, and I will continue to leave it decapitalized (or whatever that word is).
Yes, not very merciful. (BTW, do you believe that only Catholics go to heaven? I am incresingly surprised by the arrogance of Catholics.) Coming to earth and die for us to pay our debt had nothing to do with mercy. That would have to do with love, but not mercy. If God were merciful (and I believe that he is), all good people will go to heaven, regardless of religion. So what kind of mercy is it for God to allow only Catholics into heaven? Doesn't seem very forgiving to me! (and just for the record, I am not criticizing God, for he's a cool guy. I AM, however, criticizing your views of a "merciful" god.
Peralin said:Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?
If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?
dthmstr254 said:Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
this is in response to Satan tempting Jesus. if this is not implying that He is our Lord, then i dont know what is.
ok thanks for clearing that small test up, now for the true hurdle, refer back to my post and put the english to the Hebrew translation test and you will see that Jesus uses the word YHWH every time He says Lord, and i mean the one with the large list of Bible verses.Peralin said:Ok, now you've taken things out of context. Here is Luke 4:9-12, which is what you are referring to. Please read it carefully.
9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[c]"
12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[d]"
Ok now. Look at verse 10 and reread it please. There is a "He", and there is a "you". The "He" is God, and the "you" is Jesus. It is written that God will command his angels concerning Jesus, and they will lift up Jesus in their hands, so that Jesus will not strike his foot against a stone.
Jesus answers "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" as an excuse for not jumping off the cliff. Jesus does not want to put God to the test. Jesus is not accusing Satan of putting God to the test, Jesus is saying that he will not jump because if he did, he would be putting God to the test.
Now, I understand what you were thinking when you read this. But it is not what you think. Here is how I know this:
Jesus said "Do not put the lord your God to the test", right? If he was accusing Satan of testing God (and Satan wasn't, he was testing whether Jesus would test God or not), he would not have said "the lord your God". God is not Satan's "lord" or Satan's "God". Therefore, Jesus must have been using he quote as an excuse for not jumping off the cliff.
Do you get that?
dthmstr254 said:ok thanks for clearing that small test up, now for the true hurdle, refer back to my post and put the english to the Hebrew translation test and you will see that Jesus uses the word YHWH every time He says Lord, and i mean the one with the large list of Bible verses.
Viper said:1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Peralin said:Yeah, I knew this would be brought up eventualy. But this passage could be interpreted in several different ways.
The way I take it is that the three beings rule as one king, each of them ruling different areas. They are still 3, as the first sentence tells us. But they work so well together that it seems as if they rule as one. Maybe they all share the throne?
I see how this could be taken in different ways, but the first thing that would come to mind to someone who has never read this before would probably be what I said above. (BTW, doe sit not say in the bible that in marriage, the son leaves his family to become one with his wife? Yet we do not take that literally, do we?)
AlbqOwl said:We take that literally in the way it was intended. A husband and wife are intended to be a single unit, indivisible and either without the other is incomplete though each has his/her own persona (personality), function, and mission.
Peralin said:That works for me. They are three seperate beings, only they are not complete without each other. Meaning that they can be seperated, but that they work so well together that it seems as if they are one. Thanks for the help, AlbqOwl.
Peralin said:I don't know what you want me to translate for you, but I think I can explain without a translator.
Peralin said:
Isn't YHWH the name that all the Jews called God? YHWH happens to mean "I AM", right? So when Jesus said YHWH, he was referring to God. It is unlikely that Jesus was saying "I am God". He probably referred to God as YHWH because that is what his people called God.
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