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Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

Peralin

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I would bring up the entire creation story, but I'm guessing that you are a creationist?
 

AlbqOwl

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Peralin said:
I would bring up the entire creation story, but I'm guessing that you are a creationist?

I don't know if you're referring to Skil or me here. I am absolutely 100% a creationist as I can not reconcile the existence or perfection or beauty of the universe by any other means. Do I think it happened the way it is written in the Bible? No, nor do I think those who wrote the creation accounts in the Bible believe it happened just that way. What we have in Genesis 1 is metaphor to illustrate the point that all that all there is came from God.

The second creation story, Genesis 2, illustrates that humankind is in charge of administration of what God created.

It may be of some interest that most theologians who have devoted a lifetime to unraveling the mysteries of the Bible believe that Genesis was one of the most recent texts in the Bible though it appears first in order in the Bible.
 
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leejosepho

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Peralin said:
I've got another idea. Is it not possible that Jesus was not godly at all? Maybe he wasn't the Messiah that is said to come. Maybe he was just a man who realized that the world needed to change, so he did his best to change it. Maybe he and the gospel writers decided to fabricate all of this stuff so that people would change their ways.

Or, maybe Jesus was a regular human who did some cool things, and people took it the wrong way. Maybe the gospel writers actually believed that Jesus was the Savior, but maybe Jesus was just trying to help people out and make the world a better place.

I'm just bringing up ideas because the truth is that no one knows what happened, everything is based on faith and the Bible. I do not believe these things are true, but I do think that they are more likely to be true than the trinity.

I have previously heard these kinds of things you have mentioned, and I have made honest efforts to consider them in contrast to things such as this:

---
Now when יהושע [Y’Shua] came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His taught ones, saying, “Who do men say the Son of Adam is?”
And they said, “Some say Yoḥanan the Immerser [John the baptizer], and others Eliyahu [Elijah], and others Yirmeyahu [Jeremiah] or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “And you, who do you say I am?”
And Shimon Kepha [Simon Peter] answering, said, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living Elohim [Mighty One].”
And יהושע answering, said to him, “Blessed are you, Shimon Bar-Yonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 16:13-17)
---

... and if the reports I have heard are accurate, The Messiah's "taught ones" all died violent deaths rather than saying anything else/less.

Personally, then, at least my preliminary conclusion (later fortified by other things) was/is that those kinds of thoughts are just as bogus as "the trinity".
 
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AlbqOwl

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In my previous post I said this
It may be of some interest that most theologians who have devoted a lifetime to unraveling the mysteries of the Bible believe that Genesis was one of the most recent texts in the Bible though it appears first in order in the Bible.

I should have said that Genesis is believed to be one of the most recently written texts that appears in what Christians call "the Old Testatment" even though it appears first in the Old Testament. Obviously the "New Testament" contains writings that were produced several hundreds of years after the Old Testament was closed.
 

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leejosepho said:
I have previously heard these kinds of things you have mentioned, and I have made honest efforts to consider them in contrast to things such as this:

---
Now when יהושע [Y’Shua] came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His taught ones, saying, “Who do men say the Son of Adam is?”
And they said, “Some say Yoḥanan the Immerser [John the baptizer], and others Eliyahu [Elijah], and others Yirmeyahu [Jeremiah] or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “And you, who do you say I am?”
And Shimon Kepha [Simon Peter] answering, said, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living Elohim [Mighty One].”
And יהושע answering, said to him, “Blessed are you, Shimon Bar-Yonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 16:13-17)
---

... and if the reports I have heard are accurate, The Messiah's "taught ones" all died violent deaths rather than saying anything else/less.

Personally, then, at least my preliminary conclusion (later fortified by other things) was/is that those kinds of thoughts are just as bogus as "the trinity".

Yes, non-believers would have to consider them bogus wouldn't they?

But the account you relate is where the Christian belief in revelation from the Holy Spirit comes in. The account says that Jesus recognized that Cephas had been instructed in a certain knowledge. Many, if not most Christians believe such instruction is available now through the Holy Spirit which is 'the third person' of God.

A slight correction: The texts report that Judas of the original 12 committed suicide over his anguish at betraying Jesus. Sketches of non-Biblical writings and legend has it that 10 others were martyred. John, however, died of old age presumably in Ephesus.
 

Viper

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God is incomprehensible, beyond man’s understanding. However we can testify to God’s Character through his Word. Jesus says that unless we are converted and become as little children we won’t enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 18:2) A child is innocence; he doesn’t need a complete understanding to believe. His faith is strong and trusting. As an adult, I can only look upon the Bible, trusting in the Word as a little child.

God does identify himself throughout his Word; however I would be a liar if I said I fully understood him. It took me a long while to fully accept Christ as God. I had many of the same questions the unbelieving pose. The truth was in his Word, I had read it, and I just couldn’t comprehend His Divinity. Once I fully and unconditionally surrendered to Jesus, God lifted the veil blinding my faith in Him. Today I live my life on that faith, faith in Him, Faith in his Word.

What evidence does the Bible provide?

In Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In Isaiah we see Jesus, the child born the son given. Two of His titles are The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Calling Jesus by these titles would be blasphemy if it wasn’t so. Yet these are the titles given to our Lord in the Old Testament.

Jhn 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In John 1 we have the Word, the Word is Jesus. Again Jesus is referred to as God. In Genesis, it says God created everything, here we see Jesus as the creator and without him nothing was made.

Jhn 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

In this passage Thomas declares Christ as his Lord and his God. Christ would have chastised him if it wasn’t so; instead Jesus blesses those who believe on faith alone! We must remember that Jesus was also a Rabbi; it was the duty of a Rabbi to chastise a blasphemer.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Jesus died on the cross for our sins, yet here we see God purchasing his church with his own Blood.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus, yet in the second verse we are told that only God is to be worshipped.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Phl 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Both of the above passages we have Jesus as an equal to God. In the second verse Jesus is in the form of God, being equal with God. Humbling himself to become man.



Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Here we have Christ as part of the Godhead.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

In both of these passages, there is no question, we are talking about God!

Rev 21:3-6 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Again, we have God saying he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Here we have Jesus identifying himself as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Rev 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Again, Jesus is identifying himself as the beginning and the end.


Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
This passage, we have God himself claiming Jesus as God!

Isa 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Here God is identifying himself as God and Saviour!

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When man was made, we were made in the image of God. We ourselves are three in one. We are flesh, spirit and soul.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Praise be to God our Father and to Jesus our Savior and to the Holy Spirit our Counselor!
 

9TH

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SKILMATIC said:
I am still waiting for evidence that supports that the bible has lied in it somewhere? This is litereally going to take forever becasue there is no such evidence.

Actually, it takes about 2 minutes.

Here's a nice list of prophesies that did not come true as told.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

Since the existence of contradictions in a so-called perfectly truthful and accurate book is in itself a lie, here's a list of them.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

It's 2005 ladies and gentlemen - superstitions have no place here.
 
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AlbqOwl

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9TH said:
Actually, it takes about 2 minutes.

Here's a nice list of prophesies that did not come true as told.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

Since the existence of contradictions in a so-called perfectly truthful and accurate book is in itself a lie, here's a list of them.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

It's 2005 ladies and gentlemen - superstitions have no place here.

Different perspectives or different memories are not lies. Nor is symbolism or metaphors or ancient meanings that are misinterpreted by those who attempt to fit them into 21st Century meanings.

There are contradictions in the Bible yes, as different writers made their notes from different experiences, different recollections, and for different purposes. One of the most glaring contradictions is the two stories relating differing order of Creation as found in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. But if you understand that each was written by different people at a different time and to teach a different lesson, these are no longer problematic. Once you look at the text through the eyes of those who wrote it, there the contradiction makes sense.

Be not so quick to conclude that you know all there is to know of the Bible when all you have is your 21st century language, experience, and prejudices.
 

Peralin

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AlbqOwl said:
Different perspectives or different memories are not lies. Nor is symbolism or metaphors or ancient meanings that are misinterpreted by those who attempt to fit them into 21st Century meanings.

There are contradictions in the Bible yes, as different writers made their notes from different experiences, different recollections, and for different purposes. One of the most glaring contradictions is the two stories relating differing order of Creation as found in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. But if you understand that each was written by different people at a different time and to teach a different lesson, these are no longer problematic. Once you look at the text through the eyes of those who wrote it, there the contradiction makes sense.

Be not so quick to conclude that you know all there is to know of the Bible when all you have is your 21st century language, experience, and prejudices.


Now that you have taken a side, I will be arguing against both you and Skil.

9th is exactly correct. If there are contradictions in the Bible, it is not completely true. My point has been that the Bible is not completely true (as Skil has proclaimed it to be). If you want to, we can go through every one of these false prophesies that 9th has brought up. I guarantee that I can prove that at least one of these did not happen.
 

Peralin

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9TH said:
Actually, it takes about 2 minutes.

Here's a nice list of prophesies that did not come true as told.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

Since the existence of contradictions in a so-called perfectly truthful and accurate book is in itself a lie, here's a list of them.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

It's 2005 ladies and gentlemen - superstitions have no place here.


Thank you, 9th, you saved me some time. I don't know where you found this site, but it sure does help my case.
 

Peralin

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Viper said:
God is incomprehensible, beyond man’s understanding. However we can testify to God’s Character through his Word. Jesus says that unless we are converted and become as little children we won’t enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 18:2) A child is innocence; he doesn’t need a complete understanding to believe. His faith is strong and trusting. As an adult, I can only look upon the Bible, trusting in the Word as a little child.

God does identify himself throughout his Word; however I would be a liar if I said I fully understood him. It took me a long while to fully accept Christ as God. I had many of the same questions the unbelieving pose. The truth was in his Word, I had read it, and I just couldn’t comprehend His Divinity. Once I fully and unconditionally surrendered to Jesus, God lifted the veil blinding my faith in Him. Today I live my life on that faith, faith in Him, Faith in his Word.

What evidence does the Bible provide?

In Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In Isaiah we see Jesus, the child born the son given. Two of His titles are The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Calling Jesus by these titles would be blasphemy if it wasn’t so. Yet these are the titles given to our Lord in the Old Testament.

Jhn 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In John 1 we have the Word, the Word is Jesus. Again Jesus is referred to as God. In Genesis, it says God created everything, here we see Jesus as the creator and without him nothing was made.

Jhn 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

In this passage Thomas declares Christ as his Lord and his God. Christ would have chastised him if it wasn’t so; instead Jesus blesses those who believe on faith alone! We must remember that Jesus was also a Rabbi; it was the duty of a Rabbi to chastise a blasphemer.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Jesus died on the cross for our sins, yet here we see God purchasing his church with his own Blood.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus, yet in the second verse we are told that only God is to be worshipped.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Phl 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Both of the above passages we have Jesus as an equal to God. In the second verse Jesus is in the form of God, being equal with God. Humbling himself to become man.



Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Here we have Christ as part of the Godhead.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

In both of these passages, there is no question, we are talking about God!

Rev 21:3-6 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Again, we have God saying he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Here we have Jesus identifying himself as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Rev 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Again, Jesus is identifying himself as the beginning and the end.


Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
This passage, we have God himself claiming Jesus as God!

Isa 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Here God is identifying himself as God and Saviour!

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When man was made, we were made in the image of God. We ourselves are three in one. We are flesh, spirit and soul.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Praise be to God our Father and to Jesus our Savior and to the Holy Spirit our Counselor!


Ok so you do have evidence that Jesus and God are one. But answer this question please:

If Jesus was the same as God, why did Jesus pray to God? It doesn't make much sense to pray to yourself, does it?
 

AlbqOwl

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It makes your case only if you insist on taking the Bible literally as you see it from a 21st Century perspective. That's exactly what whoever put that list together on that website did. And they are dead wrong in their interpretation.

I am not saying that the writers of the Bible never got anything wrong. They almost certainly did. I use the example of the day Kennedy was shot. All persons old enough to remember that event remember it still. They know where they were and who they were with when it happened. They remember how they felt. They spent the next several days watching as much television as they could as a nation in shock dealt with the event and mourned a president in an incredible state funeral.

If each should sit down and now, 40+ years later, and write down everything they could think of in those still vivid memories, and then compare accounts, each would be a little different. Some would remember some things and will have forgotten others. Much that would have been obvious to everybody will be left out altogether. (Nobody will explain what a horse is or what a military guard is, etc.) Some will relate a similar memory from a different perspecive. No one account by itself would be complete or even completely accurate. Edit them all together however, and you would have a pretty good picture of what those momentous days were like for America.

The Bible was written much in the same way. If you can't read it through the eyes of those who wrote it, you'll get even what is there wrong. You have to have a sense of the history, language, culture, and customs of those times to understand a whole lot of it. Bible study is not just reading the text and expounding on it. Bible study is digging in to know who wrote the test, why was it written, what does it mean?

You can't just make a list of the things that don't make sense to you or seem to be untruths and get it anywhere nearly right.
 

Peralin

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AlbqOwl said:
It makes your case only if you insist on taking the Bible literally as you see it from a 21st Century perspective. That's exactly what whoever put that list together on that website did. And they are dead wrong in their interpretation.

I am not saying that the writers of the Bible never got anything wrong. They almost certainly did. I use the example of the day Kennedy was shot. All persons old enough to remember that event remember it still. They know where they were and who they were with when it happened. They remember how they felt. They spent the next several days watching as much television as they could as a nation in shock dealt with the event and mourned a president in an incredible state funeral.

If each should sit down and now, 40+ years later, and write down everything they could think of in those still vivid memories, and then compare accounts, each would be a little different. Some would remember some things and will have forgotten others. Much that would have been obvious to everybody will be left out altogether. (Nobody will explain what a horse is or what a military guard is, etc.) Some will relate a similar memory from a different perspecive. No one account by itself would be complete or even completely accurate. Edit them all together however, and you would have a pretty good picture of what those momentous days were like for America.

The Bible was written much in the same way. If you can't read it through the eyes of those who wrote it, you'll get even what is there wrong. You have to have a sense of the history, language, culture, and customs of those times to understand a whole lot of it. Bible study is not just reading the text and expounding on it. Bible study is digging in to know who wrote the test, why was it written, what does it mean?

You can't just make a list of the things that don't make sense to you or seem to be untruths and get it anywhere nearly right.

Sorry. I meant that post to be for Skilmatic, not for you. You at least realize that the Bible is not infallible. But Skilmatic does not. 9th was trying to prove him wrong, and he did a good job. But, as for you, I still ask: If Jesus was God, why did he pray to God?
 

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Peralin said:
Sorry. I meant that post to be for Skilmatic, not for you. You at least realize that the Bible is not infallible. But Skilmatic does not. 9th was trying to prove him wrong, and he did a good job. But, as for you, I still ask: If Jesus was God, why did he pray to God?

I've already answered that question twice in this thread and my answer won't change no matter how many times the question is asked. :smile:
 

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AlbqOwl said:
I've already answered that question twice in this thread and my answer won't change no matter how many times the question is asked. :smile:


Your answer has not made any sense so far. Not according to your beliefs at least. Please answer the question thoroughly.
 

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Peralin said:
Your answer has not made any sense so far. Not according to your beliefs at least. Please answer the question thoroughly.

I've explained it as thoroughly as it can be explained I think. I also said that it is probably foolishness to nonbelievers. Please read the posts again and ask for clarification of any part of the answer that is not clear. I don't know if I can make it any clearer but at least I would know what you specifically do not see in my answer.
 

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AlbqOwl said:
I didn't mean to change them and am sorry if I gave that impression. Once God gave up his godly powers to become human, he was fully 100% human. He got tired. He got discouraged. He grieved. He dreaded what he knew was going to happen to him. Because he was human did not mean there was not also God who was still spirit. And he prayed for strength and courage and assurance to that God who was still spirit, and who was his biological father according to Matthew.


Ok. So God gets tired and prays for strength and courage. Who is he praying to? The "god who was still spirit"? You are saying here that there are two gods; one in spirit, one as a man. They cannot possibly be the same since they talk to each other. Please clarify this.
 

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AlbqOwl said:
Yes, non-believers would have to consider them bogus wouldn't they?

But the account you relate ...

You have misunderstood, AlbqOwl. The things I have called bogus are the trinity and the ideas Peralin had asked about, not the Scripture I had quoted.
 

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Peralin said:
Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?

There are some anti-trinitarian Christians, who have long contended that the doctrine of the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan sources. The concept of Trinity is not unique in comparison to notions of a divine triad, found in Hinduisim. Modern Hinduism also has a trinity known as Trimurti. As far back as Babylonia, worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. Especially prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during and after Christ. Earlier Christians have long recognised the similarity between Christianity and pagan religions, and have answered charges of syncretism. Justin Martyr is one such example.
 

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leejosepho said:
You have misunderstood, AlbqOwl. The things I have called bogus are the trinity and the ideas Peralin had asked about, not the Scripture I had quoted.

No I didn't misunderstand. I accept that you do not believe in the trinity or in any of the beliefs of Chrsitianity.;
 

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AlbqOwl said:
No I didn't misunderstand. I accept that you do not believe in the trinity or in any of the beliefs of Chrsitianity.;

Can you distinguish between "believe in" and "believe", AlbqOwl? For example, I do not "believe in" (put faith in) the trinity, and neither do I even "believe" it to be true. What I *do* believe along that particular line is that YHWH is One, that The Messiah is His Son and that His Spirit has come ... and as far as "believe in" is concerned, I stick with what The Messiah said:

"Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me" (John 14:1).

So then, the erroneous conclusion you have drawn about me is at least partly accurate: I do not "believe in" any of the beliefs in Christianity (or anything else) while nevertheless truly believing *many* things Christianity merely happens to propagate, such as "belief in" The Father, Son and Spirit. And of course, I could easily make a long list of other "Christian beliefs" I clearly and firmly do believe without foolishly "believing in" them (since mere beliefs do not save anyway, at the very least).

Are you able to make those distinctions, AlbqOwl?

If not, please ask before pronouncing any more of your personal conclusions about me ... and for that, I would thank you.
 
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leejosepho said:
Can you distinguish between "believe in" and "believe", AlbqOwl? For example, I do not "believe in" (put faith in) the trinity, and neither do I even "believe" it to be true. What I *do* believe along that particular line is that YHWH is One, that The Messiah is His Son and that His Spirit has come ... and as far as "believe in" is concerned, I stick with what The Messiah said:

"Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me" (John 14:1).

So then, the erroneous conclusion you have drawn about me is at least partly accurate: I do not "believe in" any of the beliefs in Christianity (or anything else) while nevertheless truly believing *many* things Christianity merely happens to propagate, such as "belief in" The Father, Son and Spirit. And of course, I could easily make a long list of other "Christian beliefs" I clearly and firmly *believe* without foolishly "believing in" them (since mere beliefs do not save anyway, at least).

Are you able to make those distinctions, AlbqOwl?

If not, please ask before pronouncing any more of your personal conclusions about me ... and for that, I would thank you.

Sorry. I was just responding to what you seem to be saying, as well as your comments on another thread in which you seemed to express a personal opinion that was not complimentary toward Christianity. If I misinterpreted you, it was not my intention. I apologize for any error in my conclusion.
 

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Peralin said:
Ok. So God gets tired and prays for strength and courage. Who is he praying to? The "god who was still spirit"? You are saying here that there are two gods; one in spirit, one as a man. They cannot possibly be the same since they talk to each other. Please clarify this.

For me it is simple. God became what we are so that we could know who He is. He didn't stop being God for those 30+ years that Jesus walked the earth. Jesus was fully human, and being fully human he needed God as much as any human needs God. And it was to the Father/Creator/all powerful God to whom he prayed. I think that is hard to get your mind around and the Biblical admonition that "No one can say (and mean it) that Jesus is Lord except by power of the Holy Spirit" probably alludes to that difficulty.

So there it is: God of one substance--one God only--but including three persons or personalities if you prefer--God the Father (that part of God who is creator/law giver/architect of the universe), God the Son (that part of God who was with us, mediator, savior), and God the Holy Spirt (that part of God that is with us now to nudge us along, comfort us, teach us, help us out now and then.)

That in a nutshell is the classical definition of the Trinity. (Again I do not presume to speak for all Christians, some of whom will have a somewhat different explanation.)
 

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AlbqOwl said:
Sorry. I was just responding to what you seem to be saying, as well as your comments on another thread in which you seemed to express a personal opinion that was not complimentary toward Christianity. If I misinterpreted you, it was not my intention. I apologize for any error in my conclusion.

By separating "believing in Christianity" from "believing things" actually taught there, my objection to Christianity is easy to understand in the light of truth ... such as discernable from this:

“Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.
“When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards?
“Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me ...
“And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood.
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil!
“Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.
“Come now, and let us reason together,” says יהוה [YHWH] ...” (Isaiah 1:11-18).

Simply put: All of today's "religiosities" nauseate Him.
 

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leejosepho said:
By separating "believing in Christianity" from "believing things" actually taught there, my objection to Christianity is easy to understand in the light of truth ... such as discernable from this:

“Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.
“When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards?
“Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me ...
“And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood.
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil!
“Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.
“Come now, and let us reason together,” says יהוה [YHWH] ...” (Isaiah 1:11-18).

Simply put: All of today's "religiosities" nauseate Him.

I guess I don't see how the passage from Isaiah, that was dealing with a separate issue, relates to the Trinity. I don't see the doctrine of the Trinity to be a 'religiosity' if you mean 'religiosity' to be a specific religious practice. The Trinity is a belief--one that millions 'believe in' if you will. Further it is my observation that adherants of it are those most likely to 'reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow, etc.' Having said that, I tend to agree with Isaiah that we probably aren't doing worship of Yhwh very well. I just hope we get credit for honest effort sometimes.
 
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