Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

[Peralin]

All we can prove with Scriptures (or any source actually) is the belief or opinion of the writer at that time. What the Christian world refers to as the Old Testament and also the New Testament is rich with history, metaphor, symbolism, poetry, allegory, parable, apocalyptic code, imagery, and theology, but all it proves is the perception, understanding, and sense of the person and culture of that time.

Without experience, all we know of anything is theory. Until somebody actually walked on the moon, its texture, substance, etc. was all speculative. Until we go back, much of what we know of the moon is still speculative though less so because we now have some experience. Evenso, we have to have confidence in the ones reporting their experience in order to adopt their belief as our own. There are actually quite a few people alive now who believe the moonwalk was an elaboate hoax.

Regarding our understanding of God, who Jesus was, or any of the mysteries surrounding both, the Apostle Paul poignantly explained through a metaphor of 'looking through a dark glass' that gives you some images but obscures the big picture. And we have the reported prophecies of the Old Testament and the reported testimonies of Jesus (and others) of the New Testament of what a part of that big picture looks like. And as Jesus and the Apostle Paul explained, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit - the third person of the Godhead - that causes us to believe it.

It is my belief, based on experience, that those who yield themselves to be instructed, touched, guided, changed by God will come to believe, perhaps not exactly as I believe, but they will receive their own truth. Such yielding has to be with no strings attached, however. Too many try to attach their own chosen dogma, rules, timelines, specific criteria to the request and thus attempt to tie God's hands from the beginning. It has been my experience, that tactic doesn't work well. But for those who don't put God in a box, who can let God be God, almost all come to understand and accept the doctrine of the Trinity.

My best feeble, and most inadequate, explanation of this is that God is Spirit after all, and it is only spiritually that He can be known or understood at all.

The trinity is made up. Why do people believe such nonsense? How can 3 beings possibly be 1 being. It is impossible! Some people say "Everything is possible with God", but if we believe in everything that is possibe, why do we believe in only 1 god?

If anything is possible, 3 beings can be 1 being. If anything is possible, God could split himself into 20 and we could actually have 20 gods. We can't possibly believe in everything that is possible, so why do we choose the trinity as on of the "impossible things" to believe in? It doesn't make sense.

The only credible idea I've heard is that God split himself into 3, and one part, Jesus, came to Earth, and had to communicate witht he other 2 parts of God. But, if that's the case, Jesus would be only 33.3% divine, since he gave the other 2/3 to the Spirit and the Father.

But anyway, the whole idea of 3-in-1 is ridiculous, and I hope you've realized that there are only a few passages from the gospels that suggest that jesus was the same being as God. And the Bible is all that Christians live by, is it not? So, if it is not in the Bible (not very often, at least), why do people believe it?

I think it is because it is a common belief of Christians. As I went through grade school, I always thought that Catholics were better than everyone else and that everything the pope said was true. Catholics were right, everyone else was wrong. So I believed in the trinity too. Luckily, I've realized that Catholicism is not perfect and that the trinity is not well-supported in the Bible, so I gave up that belief.

 

[AlbqOwl]

The trinity is made up. Why do people believe such nonsense? How can 3 beings possibly be 1 being. It is impossible! Some people say "Everything is possible with God", but if we believe in everything that is possibe, why do we believe in only 1 god?

If anything is possible, 3 beings can be 1 being. If anything is possible, God could split himself into 20 and we could actually have 20 gods. We can't possibly believe in everything that is possible, so why do we choose the trinity as on of the "impossible things" to believe in? It doesn't make sense.

The only credible idea I've heard is that God split himself into 3, and one part, Jesus, came to Earth, and had to communicate witht he other 2 parts of God. But, if that's the case, Jesus would be only 33.3% divine, since he gave the other 2/3 to the Spirit and the Father.

But anyway, the whole idea of 3-in-1 is ridiculous, and I hope you've realized that there are only a few passages from the gospels that suggest that jesus was the same being as God. And the Bible is all that Christians live by, is it not? So, if it is not in the Bible (not very often, at least), why do people believe it?

I think it is because it is a common belief of Christians. As I went through grade school, I always thought that Catholics were better than everyone else and that everything the pope said was true. Catholics were right, everyone else was wrong. So I believed in the trinity too. Luckily, I've realized that Catholicism is not perfect and that the trinity is not well-supported in the Bible, so I gave up that belief.

And I tried my damndest to give up that belief and could not get it done. It wasn't made up. It was made real to me. I believe it will be made real to anybody who lets God show him/her without any preconceived notions of when, where, or how that might happen.

 

[dthmstr254]

long hand version, direct translation: "Before Abraham was, I Am that I Am"

 

[Peralin]

long hand version, direct translation: "Before Abraham was, I Am that I Am"

Fine. I still don't see how that says that Jesus is God. Sure, God said "I Am that I Am", but so what? Jesus may be quoting God here, but he NEVER says "I am God".

 

[Peralin]

And I tried my damndest to give up that belief and could not get it done. It wasn't made up. It was made real to me. I believe it will be made real to anybody who lets God show him/her without any preconceived notions of when, where, or how that might happen.

But it is impossible! How can 3 beings possibly be 1 being?

 

[AlbqOwl]

But it is impossible! How can 3 beings possibly be 1 being?

Well, in my opinion it is because the 3 beings are 1 being that we call God. God, as described in the Bible and as I understand Him, is not confined to human understanding of physics, biology, elements, or any other prnciple. Any God that we could fathom or even explain wouldn't be much of a God would He?

But in a very incomplete way of explanation:

Have you ever watched a really brilliant actor work? Let's say such an actor is named Bill. Bill gets so involved in the role that you get the sense that he is no longer conscious of being Bill but has become that character for those few moments on stage. You also so experience the character, emotionally and intellectually, that for those few moments you also forget that there is a Bill.

Maybe--I can't say with any certainty--that is a very primitive and imperfect explanation for how God could become a human Jesus without stopping being God.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Addendum to previous post:

I can't imagine, however, that God just plays 'roles'. Whatever God does seems to be absolutely real and not just a character on a stage.

 

[dthmstr254]

Fine. I still don't see how that says that Jesus is God. Sure, God said "I Am that I Am", but so what? Jesus may be quoting God here, but he NEVER says "I am God".

once again he forgets that this term was RESERVED ONLY for God I Am that I Am is God's Most Holy Name, reserved only for the highest forms of worship or when talking directly of or for Him. Jesus, since He was sinless, was only allowed to use that term in reference to God, and since He used it in reference to Himself, He was referring to Himself as God.

 

[Peralin]

once again he forgets that this term was RESERVED ONLY for God

No. I remember that. Then Jesus is saying: "Before Abraham was, God." Is that wrong? That is your point, right? And I am saying that it does not mean that jesus is God.

He was sinless

That's your opinion. Honestly, since Jesus was 100% human, and all humans sin, I believe that Jesus too sinned.

Jesus, since He was sinless, was only allowed to use that term in reference to God, and since He used it in reference to Himself, He was referring to Himself as God.

He was not referencing himself. It doesn't make sense. Jesus would be saying: "Before Abraham was, me." First off, it doesn't make sense. Second, it doesn't mean that he is God. I understand the connection you are making, but it is a stretch.

 

[Peralin]

Addendum to previous post:

I can't imagine, however, that God just plays 'roles'. Whatever God does seems to be absolutely real and not just a character on a stage.

Okay, then. Your analogy does not work, and here is why. again, I ask you, if God was playing a role in the form of Jesus, why does Jesus talk about his Father? Why does Jesus pray to his Father?

Let's say Bill was married with children. You would not see Bill talk to his wife saying "my Father" when he is in the role of husband. And he would not say "my actor" when he is talking to his children. It doesn't work that way.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Okay, then. Your analogy does not work, and here is why. again, I ask you, if God was playing a role in the form of Jesus, why does Jesus talk about his Father? Why does Jesus pray to his Father?

Let's say Bill was married with children. You would not see Bill talk to his wife saying "my Father" when he is in the role of husband. And he would not say "my actor" when he is talking to his children. It doesn't work that way.

I think you're trying to use human reason to understand God. Bill was the closest metaphor I could think of. I do believe that God caused Himself to be born in human form and was fully human when He walked on earth. As a human he needed God as any human needs God and He prayed to God. Again, according to the Bible, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that one can believe this and/or understand this. So you'll just have to let God teach it to you I think. Remember, we as humans are incapable of fully comprehending God no matter how much we expand our minds and try.

 

[dthmstr254]

No. I remember that. Then Jesus is saying: "Before Abraham was, God." Is that wrong? That is your point, right? And I am saying that it does not mean that jesus is God.



That's your opinion. Honestly, since Jesus was 100% human, and all humans sin, I believe that Jesus too sinned.





He was not referencing himself. It doesn't make sense. Jesus would be saying: "Before Abraham was, me." First off, it doesn't make sense. Second, it doesn't mean that he is God. I understand the connection you are making, but it is a stretch.

this is the LAST time i will reiterate this to you "Before Abraham was, I Am That I Am." here is a direct translation from the Hebrew, courtesy of the Hebrew proffesor at my college: "Before Abraham was, I Am God." this is the END of this discussion, since it has come full circle. if you want to see my arguments to each of your questions on this matter, read back, as you have held this very simple question/answer situation out too long. lets move on.

 

[dthmstr254]

That's your opinion. Honestly, since Jesus was 100% human, and all humans sin, I believe that Jesus too sinned.

You have forgotten that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. I do not pretend to understand God, I just take His Word (The Bible) at face value.

He was not referencing himself. It doesn't make sense. Jesus would be saying: "Before Abraham was, me." First off, it doesn't make sense. Second, it doesn't mean that he is God. I understand the connection you are making, but it is a stretch.

here is the laymans version. if Jesus IS before Abraham WAS, Jesus is saying that He is eternal. the only eternal being is God, so Jesus is saying He is God.

 

[Peralin]

You have forgotten that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. I do not pretend to understand God, I just take His Word (The Bible) at face value.

here is the laymans version. if Jesus IS before Abraham WAS, Jesus is saying that He is eternal. the only eternal being is God, so Jesus is saying He is God.

That God is the only eternal being is once again your own opinion. There could be 500 gods for all I know. Anyway, I'll go ahead and give it to you, since you made the connection. So that's 3. Kinda sad that you got stuck on #3, isn't it? Seriously, how can Catholics and other Christians believe in something that is stated (sometimes vaguely) in only 3 passages of the gospels. 3! Come on! If the evangelists truly wanted to spread the word that Jesus was God, you would think they would mention it more than 3 times, right? Time to face reality here!

 

[dthmstr254]

That God is the only eternal being is once again your own opinion. There could be 500 gods for all I know. Anyway, I'll go ahead and give it to you, since you made the connection. So that's 3. Kinda sad that you got stuck on #3, isn't it? Seriously, how can Catholics and other Christians believe in something that is stated (sometimes vaguely) in only 3 passages of the gospels. 3! Come on! If the evangelists truly wanted to spread the word that Jesus was God, you would think they would mention it more than 3 times, right? Time to face reality here!

we listed several areas where Jesus said his titles in reference to Himself (Eg: Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, Lord, God, I Am that I Am.) the point is not that Jesus SAID He was God, but that He PROVED that He was God. anyone can SAY that they are God, it takes God to PROVE it. I would like to know what is proved by the rather long rabbit trail that we have now finished?

 

[Peralin]

we listed several areas where Jesus said his titles in reference to Himself (Eg: Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, Lord, God, I Am that I Am.) the point is not that Jesus SAID He was God, but that He PROVED that He was God. anyone can SAY that they are God, it takes God to PROVE it. I would like to know what is proved by the rather long rabbit trail that we have now finished?

That there are only 3 passages in the gospels that suggest that Jesus was God. The belief is based on 3 passages! That is pathetic! That is my point. That the trinity is made up and that it is not supported in the gospels. It is a gigantic strech, and I hope it is now obvious that the idea was made up.

 

[dthmstr254]

That there are only 3 passages in the gospels that suggest that Jesus was God. The belief is based on 3 passages! That is pathetic! That is my point. That the trinity is made up and that it is not supported in the gospels. It is a gigantic strech, and I hope it is now obvious that the idea was made up.

proofs that Jesus is God.
336 prophecies that would ONLY be fulfilled when God came to earth were fulfilled by Him.
numerous miracles that are recorded in the scriptures.
the angels reporting his birth to the shepherds
the star of bethlehem leading people to Jesus.
the old man in the temple stating that He was God.
and to top it all off...the ressurection without the presence of a prophet. this was perfectly easy enough for God to do, but God chose to work through people when there was a ressurection. this was the ONLY ressurection that was not facilitated by a prophet. I will have my bible for the next post, and I will put every verse in the Bible that supports the trinity

 

[Peralin]

336 prophecies that would ONLY be fulfilled when God came to earth were fulfilled by Him.

Show me where it says that the prophecies would be fulfilled ONLY by God. I don't remember reading that anywhere.

numerous miracles that are recorded in the scriptures.

Jesus, in my belief, is the son of God. God would have to lend some powers to his son if hye wanted Jesus to persuade the people that he ws the son of God, wouldn/t he? So he gave him some powers to use.

the angels reporting his birth to the shepherds

Angels work for God. Jesus is God's son. Of course God would send angels to proclaim the news of Jesus's birth and to make it known that Jesus was the King of the Jews that was prophesied about.

the star of bethlehem leading people to Jesus.

It may have been put there by God, to call attention to the birth of the Messiah. After all, it is a great event for God's son to come to Earth.

the old man in the temple stating that He was God.

Quote this please.

and to top it all off...the ressurection without the presence of a prophet.

Ressurection happened because God wanted to show everyone that Jesus was in fact his son, and that miracles can happen if you trust in God.

this was the ONLY ressurection that was not facilitated by a prophet.

So what? What difference does it make if a prophet is there or not? God can do whatever he wants (to some extent) whether there is a prohet there or not!

I will have my bible for the next post, and I will put every verse in the Bible that supports the trinity

I can't wait. Of course, my main focus was to prove that the trinity is not well-supported in the Gospels, but I can go broader if you like. But keep in mind that the number of Gospel passages that hint at Jesus=God is still a 3. Good luck to you.

 

[dthmstr254]

Jesus, in my belief, is the son of God. God would have to lend some powers to his son if hye wanted Jesus to persuade the people that he ws the son of God, wouldn/t he? So he gave him some powers to use.

then how come it never said that the Spirit was with Him? every other miracle worker in the Bible had the Holy Spirit with them. Jesus was the ONLY one who didnt.

 

[dthmstr254]

Ressurection happened because God wanted to show everyone that Jesus was in fact his son, and that miracles can happen if you trust in God.

then cite a single ressurection that was not facilitated by a prophet or Jesus. neither of the gospels say that God raised Jesus from the dead, just that He rose from the dead. if Jesus was not God, the Bible would not refer to Him with CAPITAL letters at the beginning of His titles. Son of God, Prince of peace. all these little hints that add up to the OBVIOUS conclusion that the Bible says that Jesus is God. if you want to debate this fully, maybe you should read the Bible through thoroughly. maybe then you will realize just how many times He is said to be God, and would realize that the Old Testament refers to the Messiah as God incarnate.

 

[dthmstr254]

here they are:
matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
these are all the verses that my Bible puts in that particularly show the trinity in action.
if you want to use the Bible to argue a point, please expect to see every book in the Bible used before the end of the debate. maybe i should invite the president of my college to this debate after he is finished with the TRACCS and SACS accreditation papers.

 

[Peralin]

matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Yes, there are three beings in heaven, that is why they are associated together. There is the father, the son, and the spirit, all sharing the throne of heaven. No argument with you there. But that doesn't mean that they are all the same being.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again, three beings, not one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Again, 3 beings, not one. I agree that there are 3 beings. But I disagree that they are all one being.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

3 beings.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 beings again. None of these quotes say that all 3 beings are actually 1 being, and that is what I am arguing against. I agree that there are three, just not that they make up 1 being.

these are all the verses that my Bible puts in that particularly show the trinity in action.

Ok, but your Bible is trying to show a different point from the one you are arguing. Your Bible is showing me that there is evidence that there are 3 beings. That is fine with me. None of the passages say that Jesus=God=Spirit. That is my argument.

if you want to use the Bible to argue a point, please expect to see every book in the Bible used before the end of the debate.

That's fine. But it is important to realize that any Old Testament books were written before Jesus was born, so the evidence that Jesus is God is not as strong as if it were written after Jesus. How could the prophets possibly know if Jesus=God if they never knew who Jesus was? Nevertheless, I am willing to take this deeper, if you like.

maybe i should invite the president of my college to this debate after he is finished with the TRACCS and SACS accreditation papers.

Sounds good to me; the more the merrier. I may be young, but I could take on the president of your college in a debate any day. Especially about the trinity.

Give me more quotes, if you like. I'll handle them one-by-one. But make sure that they at least suggest that Jesus=God, not just that there are 3 beings. (That would be evidence against you, not for you!)

 

[dthmstr254]

and to tie it all up "I and my Father are ONE" John 10:30

 

[Peralin]

and to tie it all up "I and my Father are ONE" John 10:30

Good try, but no. As I said before, just because they are "one" does not mean that they are the same. They are "one" in that neither can be complete without the other, they are at their fullest when they are together. (As it is often said that two spouses are one, because one without the other is not at his/her fullest.)

Also, if Jesus meant to say that he was God, he would have. He would say "I am the Father", not "I and the Father are one". (If you need more explanation, look back to the other arguement about this same thing. Even albqowl backed me up on it.)

 

[AlbqOwl]

Good try, but no. As I said before, just because they are "one" does not mean that they are the same. They are "one" in that neither can be complete without the other, they are at their fullest when they are together. (As it is often said that two spouses are one, because one without the other is not at his/her fullest.)

Also, if Jesus meant to say that he was God, he would have. He would say "I am the Father", not "I and the Father are one". (If you need more explanation, look back to the other arguement about this same thing. Even albqowl backed me up on it.)

Well not quite, since I believe there is one God and not three, I have to believe that the Father and Son and the Spirit are manifestations of the one. Think of God as a shapeshifter (forgive me Lord) as that in a sense is my guess at what takes place with the exception that one shape doesn't go away when the next is formed. Nevertheless when in the form of the fully human Jesus of Nazareth, that human being was as human as any of us are human and looked to God for wisdom and strength as any of us might look to God for wisdom and strength.

How does God do that? I don't know. I'm not God. He is. Perhaps sometime He'll tell me. :smile: