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Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

Peralin

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Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?
 

leejosepho

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Peralin said:
If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief?
Although quite unwittingly for at least most people -- the deceived -- who proclaim him divine, "Jesus" is about their trying to get around, get past and/or even actually get free of/from "God" altogether. That can be evidenced in various ways, yet with the bogus "Grace (license) versus Law (accountability)" argument being their essence.
 

ILikeDubyah

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Peralin said:
Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?

christiananswers.net in the FAQ section should answer your questions about where it's referenced in the bible that Jesus is God & man.l
 
Y

y not peace?

peralin:

I dont understand your point? You are right. Jesus is Jesus. God is God. Spirit is Spirit. BUT

They are in internal sequence, which doesnt mean that Jesus IS God, but part of Him.
 

Peralin

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y not peace? said:
peralin:

I dont understand your point? You are right. Jesus is Jesus. God is God. Spirit is Spirit. BUT

They are in internal sequence, which doesnt mean that Jesus IS God, but part of Him.

What is that supposed to mean? Are they one or three? How can Jesus possibly be part of God without actually being him? And why is it that Catholics use the words GOD and JESUS interchangably (or whatever that long word is). Is doesn't make sense to me why anyone would believe that they are both 1 and 3 at the same time.

It is impossible! (Right, nothing is impossible with God, yadda yadda yadda...)
 

ILikeDubyah

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Peralin said:
What is that supposed to mean? Are they one or three? How can Jesus possibly be part of God without actually being him? And why is it that Catholics use the words GOD and JESUS interchangably (or whatever that long word is). Is doesn't make sense to me why anyone would believe that they are both 1 and 3 at the same time.

It is impossible! (Right, nothing is impossible with God, yadda yadda yadda...)
Yes, from man's standpoint, it is impossible, and yes, with God, everything is possible. As a Catholic, I do interchange the words...the holy trinity is just that, holy. "Father, Son and Spirit, God in 3 persons, Blessed Trinity" As for why we believe this, it's called Blind Faith, which goes along with other things we believe, such as the bread & wine actually DO change into the body & blood at the time of the concecration....It's not just symbolic, It's very real.
 

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Greetings, Peralin.

Even though I spent the first twenty-five years of my life deeply involved in Protest-ant Christianity, the sectarian idea of a mystical and so-called “trinity” has *never* made any sense to me. Simply put: No father can be his own son and no son can be his own father even if the wife of the alleged father-son and mother of the alleged son-father is some kind of never-out-of-breath spirit whose son who is a ... ah, no, I will not speak that.

Zeroing in a bit ...

I have heard people attempt to explain the so-called “Trinity” by making reference to the shell (1), white (2) and yoke (3) of an egg (3-as-1, or “triune”), but that analogy makes it seem to me that the components of that “egg” are inherently dependent upon that specific combination (a greater truth or entity or whatever) for their very existences, and it further begs some questions about the origin and identity of the evidently-pre-existent “chicken” who laid it ... and if we keep going on from there, we next have to ask the value of an unfertilized egg and/or exactly who (even greater) is going to take care of that particular matter!

Yes, Humpty-Dumpty has fallen ... and is never to be re-assembled in my own mind.

YHWH (Abba-Father) is One, just one, and He is “a man of his word”, so to speak, and His dependable “Word” (later manifest in His Son) was “there with Him ‘in the beginning’” (John 1:1), and since His later-sent Son is a trustworthy “chip off the old block”, so to speak, He (the Son) has inherited all His Father has (as should any good son), and taking heed of either is essentially the same as taking heed of the other. And as to “Spirit”? That essentially amounts to the power of YHWH’s attributes and character, or overall “clout”.

I still have many questions of my own, Peralin, but for now I am reasonably content with the above.
 
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S

staple

Since some people have a question, reading the Bible should help.
 

kal-el

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Concerning if Jesus is God or not, you will not find the answer in the Bible, as there are many inconspicuoseies:

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
This states that Jesus is ineed the son of God, as his father aknowledges him.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In the first verse, God is saying to Moses, that HE will be the one sent. And in the second verse, Jesus is saying that he is the being that sits on the throne of glory, in other words, he is saying he is the Almighty.
 

leejosepho

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kal-el said:
... in [Matthew 19:28], Jesus is saying that he is the being that sits on the throne of glory, in other words, he is saying he is the Almighty.
No, that is not so. To wit (from a variety of translations):

“... when the Son of Man will rule gloriously …”

“... when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne ...” (emphasis added)

“... when the Son of Adam sits on the throne of His esteem ...”

“... when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his [own] majesty ...”

“... when the Son of Man has taken His seat on His glorious throne ...”

“... on his glorious throne in the renewed creation ...”

Also, even the context of Matthew 19 is about others, and not Himself.
 

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staple said:
Since some people have a question, reading the Bible should help.
Yes, at times that certainly can, and especially when sectarian ideas are not present in one's mind at the time of reading.

The best way to read Scripture is to know (at least generally) what is there before it is read ...

... and when that foreknowledge is skewed, the result will also be skewed ...

... and that is why people can so easily mis-use Scripture to allegedly validate all sorts of ridiculous ideas.
 

Peralin

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leejosepho said:
YHWH (Abba-Father) is One, just one, and He is “a man of his word”, so to speak, and His dependable “Word” (later manifest in His Son) was “there with Him ‘in the beginning’” (John 1:1), and since His later-sent Son is a trustworthy “chip off the old block”, so to speak, He (the Son) has inherited all His Father has (as should any good son), and taking heed of either is essentially the same as taking heed of the other. And as to “Spirit”? That essentially amounts to the power of YHWH’s attributes and character, or overall “clout”.

I still have many questions of my own, Peralin, but for now I am reasonably content with the above.

Greetings leejosepho. Good post, only I'm not satisfied with it. Are you saying that there is one god, two gods, or three gods?

I have also heard an analogy like that of the egg. My theology teacher said that the trinity was this:

One god can play many roles. God the Father plays a fatherly role, and when he is on earth he plays the role of the son. Likewise, he also plays the role of the Spirit. In this case, there is one god only.

However, Jesus alsways talks about God as his father, and he as God's son, which means that they are two. But Catholicism says they are one. Which is it?

I just don't understand how people can believe in something that there is almost no evidence of. I, for one, do not believe in the idea of faith without evidence. I base all my beliefs on evidence, either scientific or personal. Right now I believe that there is a God, and that he helps us in times of need. But I have no belief on how many gods there are, so there is no reason for me to believe in the trinity without some evidence.
 

Peralin

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staple said:
Since some people have a question, reading the Bible should help.

I refuse to believe things simply because the Bible says they are true. It is obvious that the Bible is not entirely true, and I do not feel that I have the power to determine which books are real and which are not.
 

kal-el

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Peralin said:
Greetings leejosepho. Good post, only I'm not satisfied with it. Are you saying that there is one god, two gods, or three gods?

I have also heard an analogy like that of the egg. My theology teacher said that the trinity was this:

One god can play many roles. God the Father plays a fatherly role, and when he is on earth he plays the role of the son. Likewise, he also plays the role of the Spirit. In this case, there is one god only.

However, Jesus alsways talks about God as his father, and he as God's son, which means that they are two. But Catholicism says they are one. Which is it?

I just don't understand how people can believe in something that there is almost no evidence of. I, for one, do not believe in the idea of faith without evidence. I base all my beliefs on evidence, either scientific or personal. Right now I believe that there is a God, and that he helps us in times of need. But I have no belief on how many gods there are, so there is no reason for me to believe in the trinity without some evidence.
Helps us in times of need? Who or what are you talking about? Ohh that's right, was it the God of a few madmen while in their mystical delusions shouted "God is great", confessing their crime to him, or are you talking about the God that let 2,700 people die in the attack on the twin towers?

That's the problem here. A beleif in a "immaterial" God. A growing number of Americans understand that a belief in a "God" takes away all responsibility for their action's, and we place ourself in the position of being powerless pawns in some sort of "divine" game being played out.
 

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Helps us in times of need? Who or what are you talking about? Ohh that's right, was it the God of a few madmen while in their mystical delusions shouted "God is great", confessing their crime to him, or are you talking about the God that let 2,700 people die in the attack on the twin towers?

That's the problem here. A beleif in a "immaterial" God. A growing number of Americans understand that a belief in a "God" takes away all responsibility for their action's, and we place ourself in the position of being powerless pawns in some sort of "divine" game being played out.

You truly are in dire need of an excorcist my friend. That god little "g" is not God. That is allah a fake god. Just liek the indians worship the Sun. Or how the Indians in India worship like 4million things. That is known as polytheistic. There is only 1 true God. The Creator. The Father. The Spirit. 1 GOD. And yes people have used God for milleniums justifying there wars and agendas and its wrong and God would have nothing of it unless it was truly His devine agenda.

The world will end like this. And I am no prophet. It will end when God comes back to earth and all His people will ascend into heaven(they will litereally disappear off the face of the earth). Once all of Gods people leaves there will be a period of seven years where God will no longer be any presence of God or his teachers. In this period things will get so bad that people will be made to wear the mark of the Devil(666). If you dont you will be killed. There will also be large wars and it is described in the Bible that the scale of war will be soo large that there will be valleys full of blood.

Read Revelations if you want to know more. And if you think about it we are coming to those times. Everything that is describe there is actually coming into place. So you see there is a devine being and a divinity of life itself. However, we choose that destiny by the choices we make. However, God already knows whats going to happen thats why it was written some 2 thousand years ago.
 

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Peralin said:
Greetings leejosepho. Good post, only I'm not satisfied with it. Are you saying that there is one god, two gods, or three gods?
I am saying there is just one, an almighty "CEO", so to speak, over all that exists.

Peralin said:
My theology teacher said that the trinity was this:

One god can play many roles. God the Father plays a fatherly role, and when he is on earth he plays the role of the son. Likewise, he also plays the role of the Spirit. In this case, there is one god only.
At best, that multi-personalitied "shape-shifting" teaching is an extrapolation from Scripture, and now at 55, I can say it has *never* made any sense to me and I am convinced it is nothing but rubbish. Rhetorically: What would be the point?

Peralin said:
Jesus alsways talks about God as his father, and he as God's son, which means that they are two. But Catholicism says they are one. Which is it?
Two, with the Son being His Father's "right-hand man" in the "main office".

Peralin said:
I just don't understand how people can believe in something that there is almost no evidence of ...
Keep in mind that there are still people who believe the earth is flat, others who still insist the sun revolves around the earth, and that man has never been to the moon. With or without sufficient evidence, and with perceptions being whatever they are, people believe all kinds of things for twice as many reasons!

Peralin said:
I, for one, do not believe in the idea of faith without evidence. I base all my beliefs on evidence, either scientific or personal.
Same here, and I say "blind faith" without at least some kind of reasonable starting point for investigation is, at least for the most part, foolishness.

Peralin said:
Right now I believe that there is a God, and that he helps us in times of need ...
Yes, and the more we acknowledge our need, the more He reveals Himself (or "becomes evident", so to speak).

Peralin said:
But I have no belief on how many gods there are, so there is no reason for me to believe in the trinity without some evidence.
Rhetorically: Why would there even/ever need to be more than one?!
 

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SKILMATIC said:
You truly are in dire need of an excorcist my friend. That god little "g" is not God. That is allah a fake god. Just liek the indians worship the Sun. Or how the Indians in India worship like 4million things. That is known as polytheistic. There is only 1 true God. The Creator. The Father. The Spirit. 1 GOD. And yes people have used God for milleniums justifying there wars and agendas and its wrong and God would have nothing of it unless it was truly His devine agenda.

The world will end like this. And I am no prophet. It will end when God comes back to earth and all His people will ascend into heaven(they will litereally disappear off the face of the earth). Once all of Gods people leaves there will be a period of seven years where God will no longer be any presence of God or his teachers. In this period things will get so bad that people will be made to wear the mark of the Devil(666). If you dont you will be killed. There will also be large wars and it is described in the Bible that the scale of war will be soo large that there will be valleys full of blood.

Read Revelations if you want to know more. And if you think about it we are coming to those times. Everything that is describe there is actually coming into place. So you see there is a devine being and a divinity of life itself. However, we choose that destiny by the choices we make. However, God already knows whats going to happen thats why it was written some 2 thousand years ago.
You truly are alot more gullible than I thought, and I pegged you as an intelligent person. Everything you stated is a matter of opinion, my friend. You are truly ignorant if you say that all Buddhists are going to your "hell", simply because they don't buy into the whole imaginary guy in the clouds thing. To me it is a bit like believing in "santa clause."

Ok, let's say for sake of arguement, that there is 1 God,a"divine" one, since that's how you think of him. The universe is infinite, do you at least agree with that? In order to exist in an infinite number of infinitely small particles, themselves being made up of even smaller particles, while simultaneously existing in the infinite number of galaxies and universes, and at the same time being able to listen to all the 6 billion prayers being said on earth, along with the infinite number of prayers coming from other people poulating an infinite number of planets, this job is totally unfeasable for any "God." Even if he is "supernatural." Actually, if such a God wanted to intervene in some specific place, he could not intervene anywhere else,since it is hard to do these things while at the same time, listening to an infinite number of prayers coming from an infinite number of people from an infinite number of planets in our universe, which is but in an infinite number of universes.
 

SKILMATIC

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You truly are alot more gullible than I thought, and I pegged you as an intelligent person.
Your right I am smart enough to be gullible that when God tells me something that I better do it or its true. And your right again, your pegging is right on I am intelligent so therefore listen, :lol: .

Buddhists are going to your "hell",
GOD DOES NOT THROW PEOPLE INTO HELL IF THEY HAVENT HEARD THE TRUTH. God is no dumby. He knows who had the chance to accpet Him and who has heard the truth and who doesnt. He is fair. He is righteous. He WILL NOT punish those who did not hear the Gospel. And chances are Buddhists have not.

Ok, let's say for sake of arguement, that there is 1 God,a"divine" one, since that's how you think of him. The universe is infinite, do you at least agree with that?
I do, my love. :2wave:

Now I ask you a question. Do you at least agree with me God is Omniscient and Omnipotent?
 

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From a modern parable: A heavy snowstorm blanketed all vegetation outside and the woman was reluctant to wade through waist deep snow to the bird feeders. She filled a cake pan with seed and set it on the snow piled on the deck just outside the sliding doors.

The hungry birds flitted about in the trees but were afraid to approach the unfamiliar black cake pan so close to the house. The woman whispered to herself, "If I could just become one of you and show you what to do. . . "

And suddenly she understood the Trinity. She was willing to give up all her comforts and safety and become a vulnerable, cold, hungry bird out of compassion for the creatures outside.

God in his compassion gave up all his powers of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence and became a human that could be touched and seen; a human that could become weary and wounded; a human who could feel pain and die, so he could show us what to do. He was still God, but he made himself also vulnerable. Jesus prayed to the Father from which he proceeded and to whom he would return. But he was as human as any of us. And he demonstrated the power within all of us to do God's will and told us humankind would do even more because he would leave, but we would be here.

The human Jesus was finite and limited in scope of influence as any human is limited. Only by dying could he become spirit and be able to touch everybody with the Holy Spirit that he sent in his stead. Actually, I think there is evidence the Holy Spirit has always been around, but it was only by Jesus' example that we gained the ability to know and understand it.

And that is the classical definition/explanation of the Trinity - one God but in three persons - Father (creator), Son (savior, God with us), Holy Spirit (counselor).

Disclaimer: Not all Christians agree with this particular explanation, and I believe no non-Christians accept it as truth.
 

SKILMATIC

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From a modern parable: A heavy snowstorm blanketed all vegetation outside and the woman was reluctant to wade through waist deep snow to the bird feeders. She filled a cake pan with seed and set it on the snow piled on the deck just outside the sliding doors.

The hungry birds flitted about in the trees but were afraid to approach the unfamiliar black cake pan so close to the house. The woman whispered to herself, "If I could just become one of you and show you what to do. . . "

And suddenly she understood the Trinity. She was willing to give up all her comforts and safety and become a vulnerable, cold, hungry bird out of compassion for the creatures outside.

God in his compassion gave up all his powers of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence and became a human that could be touched and seen; a human that could become weary and wounded; a human who could feel pain and die, so he could show us what to do. He was still God, but he made himself also vulnerable. Jesus prayed to the Father from which he proceeded and to whom he would return. But he was as human as any of us. And he demonstrated the power within all of us to do God's will and told us humankind would do even more because he would leave, but we would be here.

The human Jesus was finite and limited in scope of influence as any human is limited. Only by dying could he become spirit and be able to touch everybody with the Holy Spirit that he sent in his stead. Actually, I think there is evidence the Holy Spirit has always been around, but it was only by Jesus' example that we gained the ability to know and understand it.

And that is the classical definition/explanation of the Trinity - one God but in three persons - Father (creator), Son (savior, God with us), Holy Spirit (counselor).

Disclaimer: Not all Christians agree with this particular explanation, and I believe no non-Christians accept it as truth.
Very nice, thats a pretty good parable. :2razz:
 

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You guys can keep your mythology. You smucker when you say we must make a choice about your invisible man, because we don't. Who cares what your man in the clouds thinks about hell, or the trinity, or even capital punishment? That's a bit like valuing an opinion from a kid owning an ant farm. Our destiny is not pre-determined. This belief in one unique and almighty "God" is exactly the cause of the biggest disasters that we have ever known. It still goes on,and has been going on for thousands of years. In fact, every army in the world went to war claiming that "God is on our side." The Muslims did when they colonised Europe, so did the Christians when they mounted their crusades to save the tomb of Christ, the religious wars, the Inqusition, the wars between India and Pakistan, in Cypress, Northern Ireland, in Kosovo, the Mid East, and the list goes on. Always and everywhere, people are killing eachother in the name of an "almighty God."
 

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You guys can keep your mythology. You smucker when you say we must make a choice about your invisible man, because we don't. Who cares what your man in the clouds thinks about hell, or the trinity, or even capital punishment? That's a bit like valuing an opinion from a kid owning an ant farm. Our destiny is not pre-determined. This belief in one unique and almighty "God" is exactly the cause of the biggest disasters that we have ever known. It still goes on,and has been going on for thousands of years. In fact, every army in the world went to war claiming that "God is on our side." The Muslims did when they colonised Europe, so did the Christians when they mounted their crusades to save the tomb of Christ, the religious wars, the Inqusition, the wars between India and Pakistan, in Cypress, Northern Ireland, in Kosovo, the Mid East, and the list goes on. Always and everywhere, people are killing eachother in the name of an "almighty God."
Again you are misunderstanding everything that which I have just teached you. God has nothing to do with these events its all mans fault. And to affiliate God with this is wrong. You are merely looking at this the wrong way.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
Again you are misunderstanding everything that which I have just teached you. God has nothing to do with these events its all mans fault. And to affiliate God with this is wrong. You are merely looking at this the wrong way.
Ok then, if your "God" has nothing to do with any of these disasters, why, if he is "almighty" as you insist, why would he let people crash airplanes into buildings in his name, hoping to acsess an imaginary "heaven"? Or people that are ready to become "human bombs" for him? And why we are talking about planes, what about9/11? The poor American victims were saying, "Itis time to pray, because God is with us in these tragic moments." What? If that's the case, where was this "God" during the disaster itself, and why didn't he stop it or prevent it? If he is almighty, as they try to make believe, then why didn't he intervene? O, wait a minute, he dosen't exist, and instead, he did nothing. Does that mean he is mean and bloodthirsty? If not, it shows he is neither all-powerful, or simply dosen't exist!

Your're correct in saying that man has his own will. But he blames his mishaps on a "God". "God" simply acts as an amplifying lever for revenge. But what does God do? Zilch. Nada. Absolutely nothing. Nothing for either side. If he loves man, why favor some, and not others and vice versa? If he is so powerful, why did he need pilots to take out buildings, and why didn't he protect the innocent civilians?
 

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kal-el said:
Ok then, if your "God" has nothing to do with any of these disasters, why, if he is "almighty" as you insist, why would he let people crash airplanes into buildings in his name, hoping to acsess an imaginary "heaven"? Or people that are ready to become "human bombs" for him? And why we are talking about planes, what about9/11? The poor American victims were saying, "Itis time to pray, because God is with us in these tragic moments." What? If that's the case, where was this "God" during the disaster itself, and why didn't he stop it or prevent it? If he is almighty, as they try to make believe, then why didn't he intervene? O, wait a minute, he dosen't exist, and instead, he did nothing. Does that mean he is mean and bloodthirsty? If not, it shows he is neither all-powerful, or simply dosen't exist!

Your're correct in saying that man has his own will. But he blames his mishaps on a "God". "God" simply acts as an amplifying lever for revenge. But what does God do? Zilch. Nada. Absolutely nothing. Nothing for either side. If he loves man, why favor some, and not others and vice versa? If he is so powerful, why did he need pilots to take out buildings, and why didn't he protect the innocent civilians?
If God protected us from every fool or evil thing humankind is capable of doing, we would indeed be nothing more than unthinking marionettes with God or his agents manipulating the strings as he wished. However, even God cannot force somebody to love. One can love only if it is freely given, and in order to be able to give love we also have to have free will and be capable of making choices about our own path and destiny.

My definition of sin is that which harms ourselves or others. Sin is bad because it hurts people. It might not seem to harm the sinner, but somewhere down the line somebody gets hurt. The more we can attune our minds and hearts and will to that of God, the less we sin, and the less damage we do to ourselves, to others, to the environment, to the earth.

The anti-religious always want to make it all about the uglies (sin) committed in the name of God. I prefer to look at the thrift shop on the corner providing good, clean, servicable clothing to people who cannot afford to buy it anywhere else and thus they preserve their dignity. I prefer to look at the folks manning the soup lines at the shelter or volunteering at the hospital or those packing up their RVs, vans, pickups, and station wagons and heading off to the coast to help as they can. When you show me leper colonies staffed and administered by athiests; when you show me food banks and havens for unwanted children that are established and manned by the anti-religious, then you might have a case. Otherwise, people of faith are doing far more good than evil.
 

Peralin

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kal-el said:
Helps us in times of need? Who or what are you talking about? Ohh that's right, was it the God of a few madmen while in their mystical delusions shouted "God is great", confessing their crime to him, or are you talking about the God that let 2,700 people die in the attack on the twin towers?

That's the problem here. A beleif in a "immaterial" God. A growing number of Americans understand that a belief in a "God" takes away all responsibility for their action's, and we place ourself in the position of being powerless pawns in some sort of "divine" game being played out.

I do not believe in fate, first of all. I do not believe that God guides us in any way. I believe that God sits back and watches, but he does help us in quiet ways. (I have personal reasons for believing this. Not miracles that happened, just very unlikely occurrences.)

God would not stop 9/11 because he would then be controlling someone's life, which he does not do. He cannot take control of anyone, that's why terrible things still happen.

BTW, I do not believe the Bible, as I said before, because parts of it are obviously not true and I cannot determine which parts are true and which are false. I realize that my beliefs contradict with the Bible in many ways, but I think my way makes more sense.
 
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