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Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

dthmstr254

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laska said:
The Bible, a collection of books, did not exist when John wrote this. If interpreted the way you have done, it would mean that God does not speak anymore to man.
actually, the books of the Bible were all in existence when he wrote this. Revelations was the last book to be written. secondly, your assumption about this eliminating the inspiration of the Bible would be wrong. John and Paul knew eachother, John had seen many of Paul's letters. Paul met John on his third trip to Jerusalem (source=Galatians), and John's epistles quote from some of his epistles, meaning that they had to be written before he wrote his. shoot, John started and finished after the rest of the books were written. now, if you will excuse me, I have to get to church.
 

laska

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I realize the different books were in existence, but they were not organized collectively together as the Bible, and you want to define "biblos" as this organized set of scriptural books and not just the book written by John (even though the example you gave states that it can be defined either way.)

no, this is the only time he used the Greek words "graphe" and "Biblos" together. Graphe is translated into English as the Scriptures, and Biblos as Bible, or book. he used them both and the literal translation from the Greek is:

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto GRAPHE [the scriptures], God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[biblos]:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of graphe [the scriptures] of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book [biblos].-dthmstr254

How is the above statement not consistent with an interpretation that John is speaking only of his own Book?
 

dthmstr254

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laska said:
I realize the different books were in existence, but they were not organized collectively together as the Bible, and you want to define "biblos" as this organized set of scriptural books and not just the book written by John (even though the example you gave states that it can be defined either way.)

no, this is the only time he used the Greek words "graphe" and "Biblos" together. Graphe is translated into English as the Scriptures, and Biblos as Bible, or book. he used them both and the literal translation from the Greek is:

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto GRAPHE [the scriptures], God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[biblos]:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of graphe [the scriptures] of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book [biblos].-dthmstr254

How is the above statement not consistent with an interpretation that John is speaking only of his own Book?
because it is always plural. when referring to one passage, or book, it would be grapheS, not graphe. the above statement is not consistent because of the plurality of what John wrote. he was obvious, from the use of the plural graphe instead of graphes, that he was referring to more than his single book. when transliterated, greek nouns are made singular by adding an "s", and plural by taking it away. John said that adding to the scriptures (plural graphe), would cause one's name to be erased from the Book of Life, and one would have to go through the plagues in his book (singular biblos). this is a collective statement, referring to the whole Bible, every single book. Revelations was the final chapter of the Bible, closing it and making it a "read-only file." not to be changed, added to, or taken from. this is what it said, point, blank.
 

Apostle13

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dthmstr254 said:
hey,um, olive branch please, I believe what you say, don't doubt, but I debate incrementally, one point eventually leading to the next. if I show that Jesus and God are the same, yet different beings at the same time, then I can move onto the Holy Spirit.
Ah yes... The Holy Spirit... The Third Part.
Well we know;
God is Love.
God is Light.
God is Spirit.

Sorry, If I got ahead of you there. I agree with your theology per your debate with Laska.
...And yet my spirit bears witness not only to yours, but his/hers also.
Raising the question; Will different doctrinal beliefs prevent us from entering in God's rest so long as we are in adherence to The Son..?
I forsee a unified church from many types and theologies.
 
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dthmstr254

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Apostle13 said:
Ah yes... The Holy Spirit... The Third Part.
Well we know;
God is Love.
God is Light.
God is Spirit.

Sorry, If I got ahead of you there. I agree with your theology per your debate with Laska.
...And yet my spirit bears witness not only to yours, but his/hers also.
Raising the question; Will different doctrinal beliefs prevent us from entering in God's rest so long as we are in adherence to The Son..?
I forsee a unified church from many types and theologies.
I believe that there will be many people of many denominations in heaven. the Bible says we aren't judged by what our beliefs about rules are, but what our belief of Christ is. do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the one true Son of God and God Himself at the same time? do you believe He came to save you and do you accept His gift of salvation by repenting your sins? if the answer you hold to those is yes, then you are bound for heaven. if not, then you are not. my answer is yes. what is yours?
 

laska

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18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto GRAPHE [the scriptures], God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[biblos]:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of graphe [the scriptures] of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book [biblos].

Everything about the context of these verses suggest John is talking only about adding or deleting from his book(I highlighted this above). You also state that the plural graphe is never used in reference to a single book, but John uses it in verse 19 in reference "of this prophecy." Even if he is talking about scriptures as a whole, I do not think this would mean that there will be no more revelation to mankind, but a warning to the scribes and translaters not to alter the writings of the prophets. Also, I am pretty confident that most Biblical scholars support the interpretation of John speaking only about altering the Book of Revelations here.
 
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Apostle13

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dthmstr254 said:
I believe that there will be many people of many denominations in heaven. the Bible says we aren't judged by what our beliefs about rules are, but what our belief of Christ is. do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the one true Son of God and God Himself at the same time? do you believe He came to save you and do you accept His gift of salvation by repenting your sins? if the answer you hold to those is yes, then you are bound for heaven. if not, then you are not. my answer is yes. what is yours?
Well Absotively Yes!
Posilutely going...lol
Further I see denominational walls (those who are in Christ) falling all about in these the latter days(for you Laska:2wave:) bringing to life the light of The Lord's prayer of unification:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
 

dthmstr254

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laska said:
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto GRAPHE [the scriptures], God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[biblos]:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of graphe [the scriptures] of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book [biblos].

Everything about the context of these verses suggest John is talking only about adding or deleting from his book(I highlighted this above). You also state that the plural graphe is never used in reference to a single book, but John uses it in verse 19 in reference "of this prophecy." Even if he is talking about scriptures as a whole, I do not think this would mean that there will be no more revelation to mankind, but a warning to the scribes and translaters not to alter the writings of the prophets. Also, I am pretty confident that most Biblical scholars support the interpretation of John speaking only about altering the Book of Revelations here.
then you refuse to accept the plurality of Scriptures. since you evidently missed what I said the first time, let me caps and bold it:

WHEN REFERRING TO ONE SPECIFIC BOOK OR PASSAGE, IT ALWAYS SAYS SCRIPTURE (NON-PLURAL). WHEN REFERRING TO MULTIPLE BOOKS, IT SAYS SCRIPTURES (PLURAL).

is that clear enough? or do I need to reteach you English?
 

dthmstr254

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Apostle13 said:
Well Absotively Yes!
Posilutely going...lol
Further I see denominational walls (those who are in Christ) falling all about in these the latter days(for you Laska:2wave:) bringing to life the light of The Lord's prayer of unification:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
I don't think complete unity will be achieved in our time on this earth. I don't think that will happen until the tribulation comes. it seems that hard times tend to cause unity among fractured groups, and what would be harder times than the tribulation. I believe that when al the Christians rapture, and the only thing they have left behind is the Bible to tell them where to go, they will finally understand.
 

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dthmstr254 said:
then you refuse to accept the plurality of Scriptures. since you evidently missed what I said the first time, let me caps and bold it:

WHEN REFERRING TO ONE SPECIFIC BOOK OR PASSAGE, IT ALWAYS SAYS SCRIPTURE (NON-PLURAL). WHEN REFERRING TO MULTIPLE BOOKS, IT SAYS SCRIPTURES (PLURAL).

is that clear enough? or do I need to reteach you English?


You have crossed the line, bringing my English into this.... you're evil :2razz:
 
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dthmstr254 said:
I believe that there will be many people of many denominations in heaven. the Bible says we aren't judged by what our beliefs about rules are, but what our belief of Christ is. do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the one true Son of God and God Himself at the same time? do you believe He came to save you and do you accept His gift of salvation by repenting your sins? if the answer you hold to those is yes, then you are bound for heaven. if not, then you are not. my answer is yes. what is yours?

Mine is no. I do not believe any of that stuff. So I guess I'm going to Hell, right? Oh well, if that's the way God is, I don't want to spend eternity with him.

But what you say is bull. You have just said that no Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or members of any reliogion other than Christianity can go to heaven. And you call your God merciful! Yeah right!

What if there was a Jew who was absolutely perfect. He never tried to hurt anyone, and helped the poor whenever he could. He traveled the world helping people, never thinking about himself. Would he go to Hell because he didn't believe in Jesus? Or do you think your God would have mercy on this wonderful person? The Church says Jews can go to Heaven, why do you contradict the teachings of the Church?

BTW, Hitler believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Do you think he went to Heaven?
 

dthmstr254

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Peralin said:
Mine is no. I do not believe any of that stuff. So I guess I'm going to Hell, right? Oh well, if that's the way God is, I don't want to spend eternity with him.

But what you say is bull. You have just said that no Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or members of any reliogion other than Christianity can go to heaven. And you call your God merciful! Yeah right!

What if there was a Jew who was absolutely perfect. He never tried to hurt anyone, and helped the poor whenever he could. He traveled the world helping people, never thinking about himself. Would he go to Hell because he didn't believe in Jesus? Or do you think your God would have mercy on this wonderful person? The Church says Jews can go to Heaven, why do you contradict the teachings of the Church?

BTW, Hitler believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Do you think he went to Heaven?
Hitler believed HE was the messiah. just ask any Christian that was alive during the war, and you will get the same answer as this. you go to heaven for confessing your sins. none of the others do that. Jews outright reject Jesus. the choice is whether or not you ACCEPT THE GIFT THAT IS GIVEN. He offers, but you need to accept. accepting it requires to admit that you are a sinner, confess your sins, and ask Jesus to put them on his tab "officially." they are all on the tab, but until you sign the dotted line, the contract is null and void.:cool:
 
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