Transwomen are not women and why radfems object to the idea

[Napoleon]

I am not denying the past use. I am pointing out that these meanings are changing. And while the difference between "sex" and "gender" are all but solidified in language, the labels by which each is distinguished are still in ambiguity. The trend would seem to point to "male" as sex, and "man" as gender, but even those who hold to these changes, myself included, will still occasionally swap them out in the interchangeable fashion they were last used as, out of habit. The younger generations, however, are less inclined to maintain such use. The shift is happening. And who knows, maybe it will shift back again at some point. Or off into another direction altogether. Language changes, and definitions evolve.

Language usually evolves naturally over long periods of time not through the ham-fisted attempts of the squeaky wheel to force definitional changes that are not common parlance.

 

[Deuce]

You want to expand on that odd statement? I'm talking about changing rooms in gyms and swimming pools.

‘You think there’s an epidemic of dudes pretending to be trans so they can flash their dick at women in a changing room?

Are you unaware that the abuse almost universally goes the other way?

 

[Aristaeus]

‘You think there’s an epidemic of dudes pretending to be trans so they can flash their dick at women in a changing room?

Are you unaware that the abuse almost universally goes the other way?

A small minority. How many is too many? Anyway, they don't have to be deliberately flashing to make women uncomfortable.

Do you really think the young teenage girl going through puberty and self-conscious about her body is not going to feel uncomfortable getting changed in the same room as a grown man in a dress?

Do women not even have the right to get undressed without the presence of males?

 

[Deuce]

A small minority. How many is too many? Anyway, they don't have to be deliberately flashing to make women uncomfortable.

Do you really think the young teenage girl going through puberty and self-conscious about her body is not going to feel uncomfortable getting changed in the same room as a grown man in a dress?

Do women not even have the right to get undressed without the presence of males?

Men willing to do this are already capable of doing it. Do you think rapists care what sign is on the door?

 

[Aristaeus]

Men willing to do this are already capable of doing it. Do you think rapists care what sign is on the door?

Not sure a 'murderers will murder anyway so might as well make it legal' is a great argument. It's not about rape. Let me tell you what a woman I know told me:

In my gym, there are a few transwomen who use the women's changing rooms. Most of them just get in and out as quickly and with as little fuss as possible. But there's one who after taking a shower, stands naked in the changing area, penis out, and slowly puts body lotion on all over, and they're just deliberately doing it way too slowly and getting a kick out of it, and it makes all the women in the room uncomfortable, not just me.

The problem with ignoring what feminists say and calling them TERFs and telling them to choke on ladydick, is that you don't hear the bad examples - you only see stories of the brave transperson who has overcome prejudice and is all happy and proud.

It's only the gender critical people who are actually highlighting the other side of the story:

The transwoman sat naked in the changing room with their legs wide apart and penis out.
The transwoman chatting up 15 year old girls and talking to 11 year olds about putting tampons up their Vagina.
The transwoman stood naked in a women's toilet with an erection and posting a photo of it bragging (I've seen the photo).
The transwomen secretly recording other women getting undressed.
The transwoman posting a photo of themselves in a woman's toilet with a big knife, bragging about how they've scared some cis women away (I've seen the photo).
The rapist who is put into a women's prison and goes on to sexually assault two other women.
etc, etc, etc.

And yes, it's pretty much never transmen doing this shit.

 

[maquiscat]

So what should we now call an adult human male if man no longer means that? Adult human male hardly trips off the tongue. And while we're at it, can you provide a new definition of the word man? If a woman identifies as a man, what is she identifying as exactly? Is a man anyone who sticks to masculine stereotypes?

What are they asking to be called? And why is that a problem for your to call them that? As a default, there isn't a problem going with the statistical probability that someone is of the gender that they look like. Because in reality, you do not see their genitals, chromosomes or genes. You have no idea, if their exterior presentation is what they were born as, or is their gender identity, or that they just don't like to dress stereotypically as their matched sex/gender. In the end stereotypes mean nothing, because they change. Someone has to be the forerunners of that change.

 

[maquiscat]

When you say man and woman and you don't mean the conventional meaning of that word you are speaking a different language you may be using English words but it is cognitive dissonance to me.

If you want to communicate with people you have to speak the language with the meaning that is commonly accepted.

Phrases like woman with the penis or man with a vagina is cognitive dissonance. By what criteria are you calling them a man or a woman?

Key words, and my exact point. Sex and gender as separate aspects of a person are now commonly accepted, which is why the language is changing. Refusing to accept change is cognitive dissonance. For a while it was commonly accepted that "gay" meant festive and joyful. Then it became commonly accepted that it meant a homosexual slur. Now it is commonly accepted that it means a homosexual, with no negative connotations.

 

[maquiscat]

Language usually evolves naturally over long periods of time not through the ham-fisted attempts of the squeaky wheel to force definitional changes that are not common parlance.

Usually is not always. I've watched the word "gay" evolve at least twice within my lifetime, as previously noted. Many other words have done so as well. Words that were once slang are not normal parts of the language. Lingual evolution is both rapid and slow. IIRC, from the panel I sat in with Marc Okrand, shifts and additions in meanings occur much faster than changes in the words themselves. Even so, the change is words such as "colour" to "color" occurred in just a couple of decades. Both words are still proper spellings, and currently mean the same. But it's a shift that has occurred over a short period of time.

 

[Rickeroo]

Imagine white people telling black people that not only can white people can identify as black, but white people who do so are just as black as they are and their black culture now also belongs to white people who identify as black. It is men telling women that they (men) are going to define what a woman is, not women. It is fundamentally sexist.

What you're saying is correct, however the dominant socially leftist whims of the day have made the determination that sex is a choice. To your racial point, take two people. One is an ardent leftist in favor of affirmative action, the other a Nazi.

They both agree on this point: Race is immutable, can't be changed, and is not a choice. This concept is as unyielding as the laws of physics.

 

[maquiscat]

Not sure a 'murderers will murder anyway so might as well make it legal' is a great argument. It's not about rape. Let me tell you what a woman I know told me:

In my gym, there are a few transwomen who use the women's changing rooms. Most of them just get in and out as quickly and with as little fuss as possible. But there's one who after taking a shower, stands naked in the changing area, penis out, and slowly puts body lotion on all over, and they're just deliberately doing it way too slowly and getting a kick out of it, and it makes all the women in the room uncomfortable, not just me.

The problem with ignoring what feminists say and calling them TERFs and telling them to choke on ladydick, is that you don't hear the bad examples - you only see stories of the brave transperson who has overcome prejudice and is all happy and proud.

It's only the gender critical people who are actually highlighting the other side of the story:

The transwoman sat naked in the changing room with their legs wide apart and penis out.
The transwoman chatting up 15 year old girls and talking to 11 year olds about putting tampons up their Vagina.
The transwoman stood naked in a women's toilet with an erection and posting a photo of it bragging (I've seen the photo).
The transwomen secretly recording other women getting undressed.
The transwoman posting a photo of themselves in a woman's toilet with a big knife, bragging about how they've scared some cis women away (I've seen the photo).
The rapist who is put into a women's prison and goes on to sexually assault two other women.
etc, etc, etc.

And yes, it's pretty much never transmen doing this shit.

And this is where you are putting the condition in front of the action.

The ciswoman sat naked in the changing room with their legs wide apart.
The ciswoman chatting up 15 year old girls and talking to 11 year olds about putting tampons up their Vagina.
The ciswoman stood naked in a women's toilet posting a photo of it bragging.
The ciswoman secretly recording other women getting undressed.
The ciswoman posting a photo of themselves in a woman's toilet with a big knife, bragging about how they've scared some cis women away (I've seen the photo).
The ciswoman rapist who is put into a women's prison and goes on to sexually assault two other women.

These actions do NOT get any more acceptable when it is a ciswoman doing it. It is the actions we have to be worried about, not whether some tiny minority of a minority is more likely to do so.

But if you want to go with the probabilities, 57% of rapist are white. So by your logic, we need to keep all white men away from women. 72% of rapes are committed by someone the person knows. Again by your logic, we need to keep women away from the people they know. 48% of rapes occur in the home. Guess we need to keep women out of their homes now too.

 

[maquiscat]

What you're saying is correct, however the dominant socially leftist whims of the day have made the determination that sex is a choice. To your racial point, take two people. One is an ardent leftist in favor of affirmative action, the other a Nazi.

They both agree on this point: Race is immutable, can't be changed, and is not a choice. This concept is as unyielding as the laws of physics.

False claim. The claim is that sex and gender are separate and that neither is a choice and that in some people they do not match each other per the statistical norm, much like some people do not fall under the statistical norm of being right handed.

 

[Aristaeus]

And this is where you are putting the condition in front of the action.

The ciswoman sat naked in the changing room with their legs wide apart.
The ciswoman chatting up 15 year old girls and talking to 11 year olds about putting tampons up their Vagina.
The ciswoman stood naked in a women's toilet posting a photo of it bragging.
The ciswoman secretly recording other women getting undressed.
The ciswoman posting a photo of themselves in a woman's toilet with a big knife, bragging about how they've scared some cis women away (I've seen the photo).
The ciswoman rapist who is put into a women's prison and goes on to sexually assault two other women.

These actions do NOT get any more acceptable when it is a ciswoman doing it. It is the actions we have to be worried about, not whether some tiny minority of a minority is more likely to do so.

But if you want to go with the probabilities, 57% of rapist are white. So by your logic, we need to keep all white men away from women. 72% of rapes are committed by someone the person knows. Again by your logic, we need to keep women away from the people they know. 48% of rapes occur in the home. Guess we need to keep women out of their homes now too.

This is beyond stupid.

 

[Aristaeus]

What are they asking to be called? And why is that a problem for your to call them that? As a default, there isn't a problem going with the statistical probability that someone is of the gender that they look like. Because in reality, you do not see their genitals, chromosomes or genes. You have no idea, if their exterior presentation is what they were born as, or is their gender identity, or that they just don't like to dress stereotypically as their matched sex/gender. In the end stereotypes mean nothing, because they change. Someone has to be the forerunners of that change.

What is the dictionary definition of a man if it is not adult human male? Because if dictionaries are going to be rewritten, you need something to take the place of the current definition.

 

[Rickeroo]

False claim. The claim is that sex and gender are separate and that neither is a choice and that in some people they do not match each other per the statistical norm, much like some people do not fall under the statistical norm of being right handed.

Society can't solve this analogy:

Gender is to sex as <blank> is to race

Taking the spirit of the OP, we can propose that if Bruce Jenner can be a woman by gender (choice) while at the same time not being a woman by sex (biology), then Rachel Dolezal can be Black by choice while at the same time not Black by race.

We allow the meaning of the word "woman" to include Bruce Jenner. We will certainly not allow the expansion of the term "Black" to include Rachael Dolezal, despite her genuine longing to define herself that way.

 

[maquiscat]

This is beyond stupid.

We've been saying that about your arguments all thread. Catch up!

What is the dictionary definition of a man if it is not adult human male? Because if dictionaries are going to be rewritten, you need something to take the place of the current definition.

This goes along with my point of the changing nature of the words. They are in flux right now. It's not yet settled out like "sex" and "gender" are. It may turn out that new labels are created to handle gender, and "man" and "woman" go back to being about sex. We'll see. In the meantime, conversations will have to context the words within each conversation.

 

[maquiscat]

Society can't solve this analogy:

Gender is to sex as <blank> is to race

Gender is to sex as skin color is to race. Next.

ETA: Although it might be more accurate to say Gender is to skin color as sex is to race. The former two might not match preconceived stereotypical generalizations, while the latter two are physical traits separate from the former two.

Taking the spirit of the OP, we can propose that if Bruce Jenner can be a woman by gender (choice) while at the same time not being a woman by sex (biology), then Rachel Dolezal can be Black by choice while at the same time not Black by race.

We allow the meaning of the word "woman" to include Bruce Jenner. We will certainly not allow the expansion of the term "Black" to include Rachael Dolezal, despite her genuine longing to define herself that way.

And yet a lot of light skinned POC are allowed to identify as white. How interesting.

 

[Aristaeus]

We've been saying that about your arguments all thread. Catch up!

There was one point in this thread where I had some hope that you might acknowledge that the debate may not be as black and white as you originally thought. It appears you have went back to your original obstinance. Be grateful that being a male puts you in a privileged position when it comes to having the opposite sex in your changing rooms as you are in the stronger group.

Enjoy your cognitive dissonance
Enjoy watching male-puberty athletes smashing women's world records
Enjoy telling the teenage girl who's self conscious about her body that she's a bigot if she's uncomfortable getting undressed in front of an adult man.

 

[CLAX1911]

Key words, and my exact point. Sex and gender as separate aspects of a person are now commonly accepted, which is why the language is changing. Refusing to accept change is cognitive dissonance. For a while it was commonly accepted that "gay" meant festive and joyful. Then it became commonly accepted that it meant a homosexual slur. Now it is commonly accepted that it means a homosexual, with no negative connotations.

Not really a useful statement. What does man and woman mean if they don't have anything to do with sex anymore what is the point of these words?

 

[CLAX1911]

False claim. The claim is that sex and gender are separate and that neither is a choice and that in some people they do not match each other per the statistical norm, much like some people do not fall under the statistical norm of being right handed.

Gender absolutely is a choice it's not an immutable characteristic it's not a characteristic at all. As far as I can tell it means nothing but what you call yourself.

so first you have to show that it's a characteristic by saying what the hell the words man and woman mean and then show it's something inherent that's going to be an uphill battle for you.

 

[CLAX1911]

There was one point in this thread where I had some hope that you might acknowledge that the debate may not be as black and white as you originally thought. It appears you have went back to your original obstinance. Be grateful that being a male puts you in a privileged position when it comes to having the opposite sex in your changing rooms as you are in the stronger group.

Enjoy your cognitive dissonance
Enjoy watching male-puberty athletes smashing women's world records
Enjoy telling the teenage girl who's self conscious about her body that she's a bigot if she's uncomfortable getting undressed in front of an adult man.

This Insanity that seems to be permeating our culture is postmodernism to the extreme. Where we don't classify people by their sex anymore the words forced sexes are being redefined into meaningless garbage.

I've been on this guy for two days to tell me what the hell man and woman mean if they don't mean what they always meant and he can't do it because they mean nothing in his reality.

 

[maquiscat]

Not really a useful statement. What does man and woman mean if they don't have anything to do with sex anymore what is the point of these words?

They describe gender and not sex. But I get what you are saying to a point. What is the gender without sex. I guess we'll find out.

 

[CLAX1911]

They describe gender and not sex. But I get what you are saying to a point. What is the gender without sex. I guess we'll find out.

If you don't know what gender is how can you be sure it's separate from sex?

 

[maquiscat]

There was one point in this thread where I had some hope that you might acknowledge that the debate may not be as black and white as you originally thought. It appears you have went back to your original obstinance. Be grateful that being a male puts you in a privileged position when it comes to having the opposite sex in your changing rooms as you are in the stronger group.

I'm not the one making the black and white claim of sex and gender being the same thing.

 

[maquiscat]

If you don't know what gender is how can you be sure it's separate from sex?

Let's take the game a step further then. What is a male and a female? What are the deciding factors? How do you tell a male from a female when you first meet someone?

 

[CLAX1911]

Let's take the game a step further then. What is a male and a female? What are the deciding factors? How do you tell a male from a female when you first meet someone?

Female is the biological designation for people that can bear offspring, male is the biological definition for people that can fertilize the egg.

It's the basic biology.