Tired of pretending. Liberal Vs Progressive

[JohnnyDollar]

what year?

During Clintons last term.
Honestly, I wasn't very political back then. I didn't start getting political until 9/11. 6 months after 9/11, W said he wasn't concerned with Osama's where abouts. Which pissed me off, because Osama was supposedly responsible for 9/11. I became a die hard democrat when we all found out the lies about WMD.
When the 08 elections were coming up, I didn't like any of the democratic candidates. So I started researching the GOP candidates. That's when I stumbled onto Ron Paul. And I've been a conservative ever since.
When I was a democrat, the idea of having to support abortion and a few other things you have to support if you're a democrat, just didn't set right. But I was a good little dem soldier, until I'd finally had enough.

Honestly, I think I've always been a conservative. I just didn't know the details.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Tea Party, huh? I always wondered why you guys called yourselves after a bunch of liberals.

From 2007 to about mid 2008, we were the Tea Party. After that, the movement got stupid. And turned into the "anybody but Obama" party. I didn't object to Obama, near as much as I object to W Bush.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

You'll get no argument from me about how bad Trump is and how bad he used to be. NYC real estate is a tough business. You almost have to be crooked to do that up there. Hell, the agent I used to sell my last house, had a few tricks up his sleeve.


Reagan, IMO was no conservative. The ONLY thing conservative about Reagan was his speeches. His spending habit proves he was no conservative. He, along with the democrats, increased the debt ceiling like 17 times. We got one tax reduction and 4 tax increases. When it came to immigration, he was pretty conservative. He gave amnesty to over 3 million illegals. Something the left would praise him for today, had he not been a republican.
BTW, funny thing about that. With all the progressive things that Trump did, like the "wall," spending, bump stock ban, Planned Parenthood funding (etc etc etc), you'd think the left would praise him a little. But because of the progressive agenda, they're not allowed to praise anyone on the right. Even when he does something they would've done themselves.


Palin was a nice lady. And maybe a decent governor. But she was not qualified for national politics. And she damn sure wasn't anything us original Tea Party (07) supporters wanted.

I wasn't thrilled with everything Reagan did either, but it was called compromise... Sometimes that needs to be done for the good of the country. The country wasn't in great shape then.. The 70's were rocky, to put it nicely. Reagan inherited a weak economy and a country reeling from oil embargoes, assassinations, hostages, etc.. Compromise was needed...

Again in 2010 the country was reeling, but instead of compromise I saw videos of McConnell saying all he cared about was making Obama a 1 term president, that he didn't care that millions of Americans were losing their jobs and homes, I was done being a Republican... He wouldn't AND DIDN'T lift a finger to help the economy. The country, the working man, the economy needed help, and McConnell put the party 110% ahead of our country.. Hell, him and the Republicans actually blamed the working people for the crash, they excused, defended and blocked any laws that would hold the people who truly responsible for the crash, Wall Street...
I never have, nor will I ever forgive him, or the Republican Party for doing that. I have no use for that kind of 'politics'.

. NYC real estate is a tough business. You almost have to be crooked to do that up there

Not almost, you HAVE to be crooked in NYC real estate.. I 200% agree with that.. You are correct.. Still doesn't excuse Trump for screwing the little guys over and over by not paying them... Still doesn't excuse him for what he did, said, and lied about as president regarding the immigration issue... He and the GOP had the whole government for 2 years, they did almost nothing to fix our immigration problems.. Enforce and put teeth in e-verify... Problem solved... They didn't..

But they won't because he nor the GOP want the issues fixed. Their big business donors love immigrants, they work cheap and keep wages down...

But for years the GOP points just to the Dems as the reason there's immigration problems. And their base falls for it. The Dems deserve blame too, BUT NOT all of it..

 

[poweRob]

Being an actual conservative, it didn't take me very long to under the HUGE difference between conservatives & republicans.
Back when I called myself a democrat, "progressives" weren't really a thing. In fact, I don't really member any democrat politician calling themselves a progressive.
But to day, they're everywhere.
On political forums like this, the two get confused. Say something about a liberal, and someone else will correct you and say it's a progressive. Or visa versa.
I have the general idea about their differences. My problem is, liberals just don't do much to disassociate themselves with the whicko thinking of the progressives.
Where as true conservatives will tell you flat out, they wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire.

Maybe the liberals are a dying breed, much like conservatives. Maybe the progressives are pushing them out. It seems that when the DNC get's a decent liberal candidate, he/she get's thrown under the bus because he/she doesn't align themselves with the new progressive way of thinking. Obama may have been the last liberal to be elected president.
That is, unless the liberal voters stand up to this new age BS. Young liberals aren't bad. You can talk to them. Like us true conservatives, they listen to all the information, and make a decision. Where are progressive will believe even facebook headlines and share that propaganda 1 million times, before someone points out to them that it's not true.

If there's any actual liberals on this forum, I'd like to hear from you and your idea's about this new progressive BS that's being force into your party.

It's OK to stand up and be heard. I didn't when I left the GOP because I was a conservative and realized there was no room in the GOP for actual conservatism.

Such a broken political intellect.

How about a progressive previous republican?

 

[Craig234]

JFK & Barry Goldwater wouldn't last two years in this political climate.

You don't know that much about JFK IMO, and much less about the country's problems. You talk a lot of nonsense about progressives (you're right about Republicans), but you don't say a word about the biggest problem, which "conservatives" gave the country, plutocracy.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

I wasn't thrilled with everything Reagan did either, but it was called compromise... Sometimes that needs to be done for the good of the country. The country wasn't in great shape then.. The 70's were rocky, to put it nicely. Reagan inherited a weak economy and a country reeling from oil embargoes, assassinations, hostages, etc.. Compromise was needed...

I stopped compromising my principles when I dumped my last political party. The Libertarians.
Honestly, I think Carter could've been the best president this country had ever had, had he had the backing of his own party. The fought him every step of the way.
Carter was in favor of all sorts of energy. Including coal. What ever it took to get us off foreign sources of energy. He also believe that the current generation should do the hard work and solve our own problems, without foreign money or influence. If we had solved those problems then, we wouldn't be $26+trillion in debt to the Federal Reserve. Reagan started us on a path that hasn't changed course since. Borrow from the fed. Make everything look like it's great." That is until the bill comes due. The boom and bust cycles haven't stopped since. This has forced the Federal Reserve to over inflate the USD value to the point that $10hr is now a poverty wage. And because of that, American manufacturing has left this country buy the 10's of thousands.
W did it. Clinton did it. Obama did it. Trump REALLY did it.

Again in 2010 the country was reeling, but instead of compromise I saw videos of McConnell saying all he cared about was making Obama a 1 term president, that he didn't care that millions of Americans were losing their jobs and homes, I was done being a Republican... He wouldn't AND DIDN'T lift a finger to help the economy. The country, the working man, the economy needed help, and McConnell put the party 110% ahead of our country.. Hell, him and the Republicans actually blamed the working people for the crash, they excused, defended and blocked any laws that would hold the people who truly responsible for the crash, Wall Street...
I never have, nor will I ever forgive him, or the Republican Party for doing that. I have no use for that kind of 'politics'.

You got me on that one. In 2010, I was too busy trying to make a go as a small business owner. I bought a semi truck in 2009 (IIRC), and that's all I knew or cared about. I remember W's bank bailout. That pissed me off. Why not give the money to the homeowners, so they can pay off or pay down their mortgages. The banks still end up with the money. But people got to keep their houses.
Obama bailing out GM also pissed me off. GM did it to themselves with their lease purchase scheme, that force millions of cars, good cars, into the used car lots. People were buying the hell out of them, instead of new cars.
In 09, I also bought a 2001 pickup. It only had 52,000 miles on it. And was about 1/2 the price of a new vehicle. I told my friends about Carmax (where I got mine) and in the next 4 years, a few of them had also bought used cars, instead of new. And because most of the American vehicles (or their parts) are made in Mexico, (thanks to the trade deals that Reagan started, and NAFTA) there was no patriotism in buying American. At least not in the car market.

As far as McConnell goes, Screw him and Pelosi.
BTW, why in the HELL does the democratic party keep putting Pelosi in the House chair? Especially when the left complains about the establishment. She's THE biggest reason as to why amendments aren't allowed on the House floor any longer. Which is a HUGE assault on our republic democracy.
Now, Amendments have to be approved in committee, before they're allowed on the House floor for a vote. "Committee" is code for "getting the lobbyist approval."

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Part Duh

Not almost, you HAVE to be crooked in NYC real estate.. I 200% agree with that.. You are correct.. Still doesn't excuse Trump for screwing the little guys over and over by not paying them... Still doesn't excuse him for what he did, said, and lied about as president regarding the immigration issue... He and the GOP had the whole government for 2 years, they did almost nothing to fix our immigration problems.. Enforce and put teeth in e-verify... Problem solved... They didn't..

Again, you have powerful lobbyist who control the immigration laws. Our elected puppets do as they say do, or they'll be "unelected." Neither side cares about our immigration policies. They don't care that we lose jobs to illegals or legal ones. This is an old argument I've had with many Trump supporters. Legal immigrants:
1. Take American jobs
2. Devalue the labor for those jobs.
3. Take their money home.

The only difference is they're documented and pay a little tax. And all those immigrants that Trump hired for his resort, still has the same effect as the construction contractor who hires illegals. The company pays less. And Americans are out of a job.
A lot of those refugees the democrats fought to bring over here. They're working in meat packing houses and other industries all over the country. The same places Americans used to work. But the companies are paying probably 1/3rd for the labor.
This is one thing I praised Trump for doing. His limit was 15,000. Biden is like 62,000. So that's 62,000 American jobs gone. And if that company has to rehire Americans, you can bet it won't be much more than our own minimum wage.
The pic is an example. From a friend of mine who lives in west Texas, he says photographs aren't allowed inside the encampments. But they house refugess until an apartment or house comes available. And it's paid for by the government.
View attachment 67343981

But they won't because he nor the GOP want the issues fixed. Their big business donors love immigrants, they work cheap and keep wages down...

But for years the GOP points just to the Dems as the reason there's immigration problems. And their base falls for it. The Dems deserve blame too, BUT NOT all of it..

Until we have access to all the information, I'd say both sides are just as guilty.
Example: Why didn't Pelosi impeach W for the WMD lies? Because she knew about it about the same time W knew. And didn't say a word about when she knew. Which was long before we the people knew. Plus she went along with the war in Iraq, even after finding out the truth.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Such a broken political intellect.

How about a progressive previous republican?

View attachment 67343977

View attachment 67343978

OIC. You're playing the Semantic game. I love that game.

I get to be the car.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

You don't know that much about JFK IMO, and much less about the country's problems. You talk a lot of nonsense about progressives (you're right about Republicans), but you don't say a word about the biggest problem, which "conservatives" gave the country, plutocracy.

How many times do I have to remind you, this thread, and all the others I post, aren't about me.
I appreciate how you give me so much attention. It's really quite flattering.
Since I'm enjoying all this "rent free" between your years, I was wondering if you could move your eye socket over just a little, so my big screen TV will rest against your forehead.

P.S. I just noticed your "political leaning" as a progressive. That explains a lot.

I was just wondering. How does it feel to have help to destroy what the decent liberals have help build for the last 100 years? How you took their stance against violent druggies, and turn those same people into martyrs. How you've helped destroy all the advancements the liberals made on the subject of racism. The progressive have reunited the race wars in this country. Made all cops out to be worse than the violent thugs you now praise.
You've also opened the flood gates of immigrants that will do nothing but devalue the labor of those jobs. But also keep Americans from working those jobs.
And how does it feel to be the BIGGEST reason why men (transwomen) are stomping on womens rights, all over this country. And even in high schools.

You folks are destroying what the liberals have been trying to do for 100 years. And you've done it only 10 years. You're like the spoiled step kids of the decent liberals in this country.

 

[Craig234]

How many times do I have to remind you, this thread, and all the others I post, aren't about me.

You're posting nonsense. You posted opinions, I posted my opinion of them. You seem obsessed with me.

 

[bongsaway]

Being an actual conservative, it didn't take me very long to under the HUGE difference between conservatives & republicans.
Back when I called myself a democrat, "progressives" weren't really a thing. In fact, I don't really member any democrat politician calling themselves a progressive.
But to day, they're everywhere.
On political forums like this, the two get confused. Say something about a liberal, and someone else will correct you and say it's a progressive. Or visa versa.
I have the general idea about their differences. My problem is, liberals just don't do much to disassociate themselves with the whicko thinking of the progressives.
Where as true conservatives will tell you flat out, they wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire.

Maybe the liberals are a dying breed, much like conservatives. Maybe the progressives are pushing them out. It seems that when the DNC get's a decent liberal candidate, he/she get's thrown under the bus because he/she doesn't align themselves with the new progressive way of thinking. Obama may have been the last liberal to be elected president.
That is, unless the liberal voters stand up to this new age BS. Young liberals aren't bad. You can talk to them. Like us true conservatives, they listen to all the information, and make a decision. Where are progressive will believe even facebook headlines and share that propaganda 1 million times, before someone points out to them that it's not true.

If there's any actual liberals on this forum, I'd like to hear from you and your idea's about this new progressive BS that's being force into your party.

It's OK to stand up and be heard. I didn't when I left the GOP because I was a conservative and realized there was no room in the GOP for actual conservatism.

Lol, seventy four or five million trump voters and you are trying to convince us that true conservatives wouldn't piss on trump if he was on fire. For some reason or other your statement and the amount of votes trump received don't quite fit.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Lol, seventy four or five million trump voters and you are trying to convince us that true conservatives wouldn't piss on trump if he was on fire. For some reason or other your statement and the amount of votes trump received don't quite fit.

It fits. Maybe you just don't see it.

BTW, between Trump and Biden, I'd vote for Trump. But I didn't vote for either of them. But there are some conservatives that see voting for the lesser of two evils, as the way to go. And so they cast their vote for Trump.
Note: Not every Trump voter is a conservative. <<<< That's important. Because of the way you worded your post. As if all trump voters were conservative. Fact is, I'm pretty sure that Trump got some liberal votes. Simply because Trump was pretty liberal.
Funding planned Parenthood. Banning bump stocks. spending like a drunken progressive.

 

[noonereal]

I was a Republican for 30 plus years, then around 2010 I saw there was absolutely NOTHING conservative about the Republican Party anymore.

Same here but I knew in 2000 that Bush was amassing the unwashed into a political "stupid" block of voters. I still vote GOP down ballot but Bush, Palin and Trump? I knew better as I said.
Now I will not vote GOP for ANYONE. Not my neighbor the judge, not my friend the country executive, no one. They empower Trumpism. Trumpism must end.

 

[eohrnberger]

Such a broken political intellect.

How about a progressive previous republican?

View attachment 67343977

119 Years ago is a long time.
The situation hasn't largely changed since then?

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Same here but I knew in 2000 that Bush was amassing the unwashed into a political "stupid" block of voters. I still vote GOP down ballot but Bush, Palin and Trump? I knew better as I said.
Now I will not vote GOP for ANYONE. Not my neighbor the judge, not my friend the country executive, no one. They empower Trumpism. Trumpism must end.

I guess we've all got our reasons. But not voting for someone because of their party is as bad as voting for someone, just because of their party.

Honestly, if I don't know the people on the ballot, I just don't vote. And so far, I've slept well after doing that.

 

[noonereal]

I guess we've all got our reasons. But not voting for someone because of their party is as bad as voting for someone, just because of their party.

Look at Congress, do our reps vote as individuals? No. Why then vote for individuals?

When they start to vote their conscience again, then I'll vote for individuals again.

 

[trouble13]

Being an actual conservative, it didn't take me very long to under the HUGE difference between conservatives & republicans.
Back when I called myself a democrat, "progressives" weren't really a thing. In fact, I don't really member any democrat politician calling themselves a progressive.
But to day, they're everywhere.
On political forums like this, the two get confused. Say something about a liberal, and someone else will correct you and say it's a progressive. Or visa versa.
I have the general idea about their differences. My problem is, liberals just don't do much to disassociate themselves with the whicko thinking of the progressives.
Where as true conservatives will tell you flat out, they wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire.

Maybe the liberals are a dying breed, much like conservatives. Maybe the progressives are pushing them out. It seems that when the DNC get's a decent liberal candidate, he/she get's thrown under the bus because he/she doesn't align themselves with the new progressive way of thinking. Obama may have been the last liberal to be elected president.
That is, unless the liberal voters stand up to this new age BS. Young liberals aren't bad. You can talk to them. Like us true conservatives, they listen to all the information, and make a decision. Where are progressive will believe even facebook headlines and share that propaganda 1 million times, before someone points out to them that it's not true.

If there's any actual liberals on this forum, I'd like to hear from you and your idea's about this new progressive BS that's being force into your party.

It's OK to stand up and be heard. I didn't when I left the GOP because I was a conservative and realized there was no room in the GOP for actual conservatism.

What are the hallmarks of being a TRUE conservative?

 

[Visbek]

"improve" is just their opinion. I don't see a lot of the sjw's pushing for anything that's "improved."

Do you actually want to understand the terms you're using, or do you just want to beg the question?

Their idea's on racism is teaching blacks to hate whites.

All this pronoun business, imo, isn't an improvement either.

It isn't to you. That doesn't mean it isn't an improvement to anyone, or to society as a whole.

Any time you have to "force" half of the people to do something, then their rights are violated.

Oh, really?

Are seat belt laws a violation of rights?
Are speed limits a violation of rights?
Are zoning laws a violation of rights?
Is taxation a violation of rights?
Are requirements to educate a child a violation of rights?
Are anti-discrimination laws a violation of rights?

Forcing people to accept something they don't believe in, like baking a gay wedding cake (or anything along those lines) goes against someone's beliefs. And it also goes against their right to liberty.

Over the centuries, we've seen tons of examples of people citing religious justifications for slavery, segregation, racism, sexism, and homophobia. (Here's a typical example from Bob Jones in 1960.)

Ultimately, it's not about religious beliefs. It's using religious excuses to justify bigotry.

Oh, and... a wedding cake isn't a religious sacrament. In fact, wedding receptions aren't religious ceremonies. Just FYI.

The reasons why Clinton lost has to do with her connection with the establishment and MIC.....

No, it doesn't. She lost because of sexism, because of her personality, and because the Electoral College has wound up giving Republican Presidential candidates an undemocratic and unfair advantage. She got almost 3 million votes more than Trump. If she had gotten 12,000 additional votes in a few states, she would have won.

If you don't believe me, consider that Biden faced the same opponent, has a similar history and platform, and got the most votes of any Presidential candidate in US history. Hmmmm.

A lot of democrats were tired of the Clinton/Bush era.

Her popular vote tally suggests otherwise.

Had their not been an electoral college, then I don't think Clinton would've had more votes than Trump.

Again: She won the popular vote.

Obviously, both parties' strategies would be very different if there was no Electoral College. However, Republicans have shown a remarkable adherence to unpopular policies over the past several decades, and it's not clear that even eliminating the EC would cause them to drop those unpopular policies, delink themselves from the plutocrats pushing them, and stop race baiting.

But because of the EC, most conservatives on the west and east coast, just don't even bother voting.

Cool story bro. But... it's just not true. 70% of eligible California voters participated in the 2020 election; in New York, it was around 65%. 2020 had the highest turnout in over 100 years.

Trump simply got the snot beaten out of him, and the main reasons he got so many votes was incumbency and partisanship. That shouldn't surprise anyone who was actually alive and conscious in 2020.


All of this, while fascinating, is largely aside the point. Again, "progressivism" isn't a brand-new thing invented by AOC two years ago. It's been a part of the American landscape for decades, and part of the Democratic party since the 70s or 80s. It's no more necessarily extreme or dogmatic than conservatism. Meanwhile, liberalism is on the decline across the political spectrum. Yes, people get the two mixed up. That doesn't mean you should mix them up, too.

 

[Visbek]

What are the hallmarks of being a TRUE conservative?

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[poweRob]

OIC. You're playing the Semantic game. I love that game.

I get to be the car.
View attachment 67343985

Wow.. what a pathetic dodge. Alas, I expected as much from someone who doesn't know the meaning of words and stuff.

 

[poweRob]

119 Years ago is a long time.
The situation hasn't largely changed since then?

Look at the ****ing message he was bringing. Not much different.

 

[Craig234]

"Where as true conservatives will tell you flat out, they wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire."

"between Trump and Biden, I'd vote for Trump."

Says a lot about the minds of that crowd.

They want to sound like they're strongly principled...

 

[LostInSeattle]

I stopped compromising my principles when I dumped my last political party. The Libertarians.
Honestly, I think Carter could've been the best president this country had ever had, had he had the backing of his own party. The fought him every step of the way.
Carter was in favor of all sorts of energy. Including coal. What ever it took to get us off foreign sources of energy. He also believe that the current generation should do the hard work and solve our own problems, without foreign money or influence. If we had solved those problems then, we wouldn't be $26+trillion in debt to the Federal Reserve. Reagan started us on a path that hasn't changed course since. Borrow from the fed. Make everything look like it's great." That is until the bill comes due. The boom and bust cycles haven't stopped since. This has forced the Federal Reserve to over inflate the USD value to the point that $10hr is now a poverty wage. And because of that, American manufacturing has left this country buy the 10's of thousands.
W did it. Clinton did it. Obama did it. Trump REALLY did it.

Dude, I disagree with you on many things but you never cease to surprise me. I agree with you completely about both Carter and Clinton. Clinton and Walmart outsourcing manufacturing expertise to China for "lower cost" goods turned me permanently aware from corporatist democrats.

As far as McConnell goes, Screw him and Pelosi.

Yup.

BTW, why in the HELL does the democratic party keep putting Pelosi in the House chair?

Corporatist democrats still control the party.

 

[Ginger Ale]

I went from liberal to progressive. I learned the further the Democrat went to the middle, the more he didn't care as much about the people of this country, but the campaign donors, and appeasing big business lobbies. Corporate Dems do not come to mind when I think of "for the people." If we were smart, we wouldn't allow donors at all, because they're more like loan sharks.

I went with the party who thinks every single person deserves respect, and that the government should work for who elected them. So affordable healthcare, education, and clean air, safe food and water to consume with everyone treated fairly and equal. The basic necessities of life. Why else would I elect a president or any branch of government?

The government should represent the people from a progressive view. Most progressives look around the world and see programs that work the best for the people who populated it. Then suggest we do the same. If that's what you think is a crazy idea, then you can see why I'd question what exactly you think our government should be working on?

I often notice the right referring to the government like a separate entity. The government is doing this or that to us. That's because our government hasn't been working for it's people for a long time, and America is almost an Oligarchy.

Progressive stands for PROGRESS. We want to progress into the future, not go back to the "good" old days.

I vote independent, and I think we all should because party politics has influenced choice.

 

[eohrnberger]

Look at the ****ing message he was bringing. Not much different.

I am looking at the message Teddy Roosevelt was bringing.

Then, Standard Oil controlled 90% of oil production in the US. The closest similar situation we would have now is:

“You know that you’ve made it big when your company name gets turned into a common English verb. If you’ve ever casually mentioned to a friend that you plan on Googling something, then you know what I mean. That word association is easy to understand because Alphabet (NASDAQ:GOOG)(NASDAQ:GOOGL) — the company formerly known as Google — has dominated the internet search market for more than a decade.”

‘Monopoly’ and American Capitalism

by Kevin Stoda According to James Poniewozik and a mass of American studies experts, “If you want to understand the American attitude toward capitalism, look inside your hall closet. There&#8…

eslkevin.wordpress.com

My guess would be that Facebook and Twitter dominance in their markets is similar.

Wouldn't these companies be even more significant than the Standard Oil example from history, in that these companies are controlling the flow and distribution of information in the society?

So, yes, similarities to history, but also different than those similarities in history, wouldn't you say?