This Before And After Image Of Afghanistan Is Hard To Believe

[the_recruit]

I also know who is responsible for the situation the Afghans have been experiencing and it is not the Afghans. They are not responsible for the Taliban. Quite the opposite. They warned the US about the mad arabs let out of jail and their ideas of kill other Muslims for not thinking like them. The US was told repeatedly by Abdul Haq and asked to support Afghans but no, the US chose instead to fund and train those who would become Al Qaeda. She also deliberately turned a blind eye when Afghan refugee children were given the most extreme education funded by the Saudi's which did not even address the basics of education and taught them nothing of their Afghan heritage - just trained them to be fanatics.

The CIA knew all about this and thought it was fine having Afghan fanatics. They would fight the Russians more crazily. The US had no care for the Afghans. According to RAWA, the US even turned a blind eye when democratic Afghan fighters were murdered by these mad arabs.

So look nearer to home if you want to know why the Afghans have had such hell.

The Taliban are a Pakistan monstrosity, don't try to blame that on the US. The US could have intervened, should have intervened to prevent the Taliban from seizing power, but that's not the same thing.

 

[alexa]

The Taliban are a Pakistan monstrosity, don't try to blame that on the US. The US could have intervened, should have intervened to prevent the Taliban from seizing power, but that's not the same thing.

No, I am not talking about the US not stopping the Taliban taking power. I am talking about the US being complicit in the education of innocent Afghan refugee children so that they were brainwashed into becoming the Taliban which has no foundation in Afghan tradition.

The Reagan administration sensed the most hard-line elements of the resistance were less likely to reach negotiated settlements, but the goal was to cripple the Soviet Union, not free the Afghan people. Recognizing the historically strong role of Islam in Afghan society, they tried to exploit it to advance U.S. policy goals. Religious studies along militaristic lines were given more importance than conventional education in the school system for Afghan refugees in Pakistan. The number of religious schools (madrassas) educating Afghans rose from 2,500 in 1980 at the start of Afghan resistance to over 39,000. The United States encouraged the Saudis to recruit Wahhabist ideologues to come join the resistance and teach in refugee institutes.

-snip-

Out of these madrassas came the talibs (students), who later became the Taliban.

This was no accident. It seemed that such policies were intentionally initiated that way to drag young Afghans towards extremism and war, and to be well prepared not only to fight a war of liberation, but to fight the foes and rivals of foreigners at the expense of Afghan destruction and blood. And the indoctrination and resulting radicalization of Afghan youth that later formed the core of the Taliban wasn't simply from outsourcing but was directly supported by the U.S. government as well, such as through textbooks issued by the U.S. Agency for International Development for refugee children between 1986 and 1992, which were designed to encourage such militancy.

Read more: The U.S. and the Afghan Tragedy « RAWA News

However you say it, the Taliban are not native to Afghanistan and do not represent Afghan heritage and tradition as Ecofarm seems to believe. The are a product of the US/Soviet war over Afghanistan and the choice of the US to support Arab extremism rather than Afghan heritage.

 

[spud_meister]

Read the wiki. I lived in rural Africa for two years; no electricity, running water or paved floors; was that make believe.

Of course, living without electricity in Africa clearly makes you an expert about 60's Afghanistan.

 

[Northern Light]

by Geoffrey Ingersoll



http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5112c4a969beddd072000000-1280-448-940-/afghanistanimage.jpg

Read more: Before And After Afghanistan Image - Business Insider

This is so sad. The effects of war are terrible. What's more depressing is the priceless cultural knowledge and advancements that a civilization loses as it's bombed back to the stone age.

People don't realize that once a people are destroyed their legacy is lost forever.

Aghanistan will eventually rebuild - probably not in my lifetime - but it will not be the same incarnation as it was last time. That Afghanistan is gone for good.

 

[ecofarm]

Of course, living without electricity in Africa clearly makes you an expert about 60's Afghanistan.

That's an absurd conclusion. My response was in regard to this:

I am not going to say any more. I told you my, and many others, experience of Afghanistan. Being poor does not make a person a savage which is more than can be said for the way they have been treated by the West. You are living in make believe. I have better things to do than feed such.

I know about the developing world poor better than anyone here.

Alexa made an ignorant assumption about what "noble savage" meant and then went on to attack my knowledge and me personally.

Do you not see the insult? Do you still not understand my response?

 

[ecofarm]

there were established bus lines and people hitch hiking. It was pretty common

No one has provided any evidence of such or numbers. Pretending that Afghanistan was a nice country is silly. It's always been a backwards craphole.

 

[Helix]

the backstory to some of this is in The Kite Runner. it's pretty sad and frightening.

 

[Thrilla]

I also know who is responsible for the situation the Afghans have been experiencing and it is not the Afghans. They are not responsible for the Taliban. Quite the opposite. They warned the US about the mad arabs let out of jail and their ideas of kill other Muslims for not thinking like them. The US was told repeatedly by Abdul Haq and asked to support Afghans but no, the US chose instead to fund and train those who would become Al Qaeda. She also deliberately turned a blind eye when Afghan refugee children were given the most extreme education funded by the Saudi's which did not even address the basics of education and taught them nothing of their Afghan heritage - just trained them to be fanatics.

The CIA knew all about this and thought it was fine having Afghan fanatics. They would fight the Russians more crazily. The US had no care for the Afghans. According to RAWA, the US even turned a blind eye when democratic Afghan fighters were murdered by these mad arabs.

So look nearer to home if you want to know why the Afghans have had such hell.

Mohammed Omar, an afghan mullah, is responsible for the Taliban... not the US..... he got his support from Pakistan.
in addition, Mujahideen =/= Taliban....

where the Mujahideen messed up is in not pushing a unified government into place after then booted the USSR out... not doing so pushed Afghanistan into a civil war, and that is no ones fault but Afghans.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Of course, living without electricity in Africa clearly makes you an expert about 60's Afghanistan.

no, silly, he just stayed at the holiday in

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No one has provided any evidence of such or numbers. Pretending that Afghanistan was a nice country is silly. It's always been a backwards craphole.

Nothing I wrote deals with any type of judgement regarding Afghanistan. It dealt with the rather common usage of the hippy trail and the fact Afghanistan was a prominent stop over on it, and that your claims to the contrary were wrong.

But, if you were not even aware of the hippie trail, I doubt you have much knowledge of the region, from the 60's and 70's, to begin with.

 

[ecofarm]

Nothing I wrote deals with any type of judgement regarding Afghanistan. It dealt with the rather common usage of the hippy trail and the fact Afghanistan was a prominent stop over on it, and that your claims to the contrary were wrong.

But, if you were not even aware of the hippie trail, I doubt you have much knowledge of the region, from the 60's and 70's, to begin with.

One of the author's opening sentences and a false premise is that ~"westerners would visit Afghanistan and particularly Kabul often". That's dishonest. It was a craphole that only dirty hippies seeking danger and desert mountains would bother with. There were no hawaiian t-shirts, resorts, casinos, world class restaurants and such. If we include diplomatic ventures, research and business attempts as "visits", then maybe there are a few but "often" is right out.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

One of the author's opening sentences and a false premise is that ~"westerners would visit Afghanistan and particularly Kabul often".

they would

That's dishonest. The was a craphole that only dirty hippies seeking danger and desert mountains would bother with

let's not try to disguise your blatant ignorance by arguing hippies from europe and the UK are not "western".

There were no hawaiian t-shirts, resorts, casino, world class restaurants and such.

where were these things claimed, and how does this argument now reconcile with your earlier assertions of these people all being spies?

 

[rocket88]

One of the author's opening sentences and a false premise is that ~"westerners would visit Afghanistan and particularly Kabul often". That's dishonest. It was a craphole that only dirty hippies seeking danger and desert mountains would bother with. There were no hawaiian t-shirts, resorts, casinos, world class restaurants and such. If we include diplomatic ventures, research and business attempts as "visits", then maybe there are a few but "often" is right out.

That's fine, but it was still probably nicer than it was after the Soviets invaded, which was probably nicer than when the Taliban took power, and probably nicer than before the Americans came and blew the Hell out of whatever was left.

 

[ecofarm]

they would




let's not try to disguise your blatant ignorance by arguing hippies from europe and the UK are not "western".





where were these things claimed, and how does this argument now reconcile with your earlier assertions of these people all being spies?

Do you have citations for tourist visits to Afghanistan in the 1960s?

 

[ecofarm]

That's fine, but it was still probably nicer than it was after the Soviets invaded, which was probably nicer than when the Taliban took power, and probably nicer than before the Americans came and blew the Hell out of whatever was left.

I'm sure it's nicer now that the Taliban are not in charge.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Do you have citations for tourist visits to Afghanistan in the 1960s?

Look, if you want to deny the existence of the hippy trail and it's popularity, it' s not something I'm going to argue over. Because it just proves you're totally ignorent of the subject

 

[ecofarm]

Look, if you want to deny the existence of the hippy trail and it's popularity, it' s not something I'm going to argue over. Because it just proves you're totally ignorent of the subject

I do not deny the hippy trail. Well, maybe I will but first let's get you online. I deny that it constitutes visitors to Afghanistan "often". How many hippie trailers were there, total and per year?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I do not deny the hippy trail. Well, maybe I will but first let's get you online. I deny that it constitutes visitors to Afghanistan "often". How many hippie trailers were there, total and per year?

1) you original claimed them as anti-soviet spies

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...-afghanistan-hard-believe.html#post1061441603

2) the route was used enough that people could reliably hitchhike it and there were commercial bus lines, and well places for room and board. So yes, often seems more than appropriate here

3) no, I do not have a census of numbers per year, and doubt any exist. But we both know this is some pathetic attempt to explain away your earlier ignorance.

Yes, you were wrong on the internet. get over it

 

[ecofarm]

1) you original claimed them as anti-soviet spies

I specified 32 years ago.

3) no, I do not have a census of numbers per year, and doubt any exist. But we both know this is some pathetic attempt to explain away your earlier ignorance.

Your ignorance is holding up the analysis. Let's say there were 1000 hippie trailers over 10 years. That is not ~"westerners visiting often". So, what other tourists we got?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I specified 32 years ago.

The hippie trail was in use back in the 60's

Your ignorance is holding up the analysis. Let's say there were 1000 hippie trailers over 10 years. That is not ~"westerners visiting often". So, what other tourists we got?

so commercial bus routes and a decently sized hospitality industry are going to spring up for a 100 visitors per year?

you were wrong, learn to deal with it, mate

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Afghanistan Earthquake Information

In 1998 there were two major earthquakes in Afghanistan over 6,000 people died. Most buildings are adobe type structures or brick or stone. Not the best building materials for earthquakes. http://cires.colorado.edu/~bilham/Afghan.pdf

Afghanistan

1965 03 14 - Hindu Kush, Afghanistan - M 7.8
1998 02 04 - Afghanistan-Tajikistan Border Region - M 5.9 Fatalities 2,323
1998 05 30 - Afghanistan-Tajikistan Border Region - M 6.6 Fatalities 4,000
2002 03 03 - Hindu Kush Region, Afghanistan - M 7.4 Fatalities 166
2002 03 25 - Hindu Kush Region, Afghanistan - M 6.1 Fatalities 1,000
2004 04 05 - Hindu Kush Region, Afghanistan - M 6.6 Fatalities 3
2005 12 12 - Hindu Kush Region, Afghanistan - M 6.5 Fatalities 5
2009 10 29 - Hindu Kush region, Afghanistan - M 6.2

 

[ecofarm]

The hippie trail was in use back in the 60's

I'm aware of when hippies existed and when the Soviets occupied. I dunno why you thought otherwise, as I specified only anti-Soviet spies after the occupation, which was 1980 and not hippie time anyway.

so commercial bus routes and a decently sized hospitality industry are going to spring up for a 100 visitors per year?

Ok, I was kinda bein' a dick because you wouldn't even breach the subject on any factual level. Let's say 10k over 10 years. That's still not "westerners visiting often".

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I'm aware of when hippies existed and when the Soviets occupied. I dunno why you thought otherwise, as I specified only anti-Soviet spies after the occupation, which was 1980 and not hippie time anyway.

this is the comment you originally responded to with your spy claim "Prior to three-plus decades of war, Afghanistan, and Kabul in particular, had a pretty solid set up, one that westerners would often visit."

Note, the use of "prior"

Ok, I was kinda bein' a dick because you wouldn't even breach the subject on any factual level. Ok, let's say 10k over 10 years. That's still not "westerners visiting often".

it was a well traveled hippy hotspot like Pushkar and Goa is today.

PS making up numbers and tossing them out isn't 'factual"

 

[ecofarm]

this is the comment you originally responded to with your spy claim "Prior to three-plus decades of war, Afghanistan, and Kabul in particular, had a pretty solid set up, one that westerners would often visit."

Note, the use of "prior"

So, we need numbers for the hippie trailers and other tourists, 1960s. What about disco people, they didn't go backpacking?

 

[the_recruit]

No, I am not talking about the US not stopping the Taliban taking power. I am talking about the US being complicit in the education of innocent Afghan refugee children so that they were brainwashed into becoming the Taliban which has no foundation in Afghan tradition.




Read more: The U.S. and the Afghan Tragedy « RAWA News

However you say it, the Taliban are not native to Afghanistan and do not represent Afghan heritage and tradition as Ecofarm seems to believe.

Yes, as I said the Taliban are a creation of the Pakistan and the ISI. The idea espoused by your article is a typical re-interpretation of history to demonize the US. The US has never supported the Taliban. We supported the Mujahideen. As Thrilla has already pointed out, the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. The Mujahideen did not become the Taliban. After the mutual enemy that glued the Mujahideen together, the Soviet invasion, was lifted the Mujahideen fractured along ethnic and ideological lines into a number of groups that vied for power in the ensuing Civil War. I could just as easily claim that the US's support of the Mujahideen led to the creation of the Northern Alliance led by Massoud, who fought directly AGAINST the Taliban.

The are a product of the US/Soviet war over Afghanistan and the choice of the US to support Arab extremism rather than Afghan heritage.

Arab extremism? And you think I'm the one ignorant of Afghan history and culture? Arabs =/= any militant Muslim with an AK-47.

There are very few ethnic Arabs in Afghanistan, even fewer in the Taliban. Afghan ethnicity is mostly Pashtun (~40%), Tajik (~30%), Hazara (~15%), and a smattering of others. A basic understanding of Afghan ethnicity is absolutely necessary if you hope to have any understanding of Afghan society.