Third night of unrest in Sweden over far-right anti-Islam rally

[Crunchtime]

He’s right, and you know it.

Pretending that the history of christianity is not blood soaked is ridiculous, false and self serving.

What’s the point? Why continue to beat that drum? What is the motivation for that?

 

[Crunchtime]

I doubt that there‘s a much clearer expession of Evangelical chauvinism out there.

You declared that yours is the “true” Christian church.

It’s’ little wonder that most of the rest of the christian community regards the likes of the late Falwell and the rest of the television carnival barkers as a joke and a threat.

For every TV evangelist, etal, there are millions of Christians who are faithful each day to what they believe, and to God that saved them. Youre just trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. Same as the other guy. It doesn’t work that way. It’s bigotry. Own it or be silent.

I said that Jesus said you must be born again. The true church, as you put it, is the born again church. You can be born again within the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that, for the most part.

A relationship with God is a relationship of the heart. We love Him. That love comes by the Holy Spirit. It’s spiritual, and it’s supernatural.

I exclude no one, but Jesus did. He said, except a man be born again, he shall not see the Kingdom of God.

 

[Tigerace117]

In your mind. We know our history. But it’s history and it’s isolated. I have never hurt anyone. Never owned a slave. Same difference. I’m a Christian. And glad of it.

In other words, you bury your head in your sand, desperately try to ignore reality, and scream like a banshee when your hypocrisy is exposed.

 

[Fishking]

He’s right, and you know it.

Pretending that the history of christianity is not blood soaked is ridiculous, false and self serving.

Yet all the historically Christian nations are the best places, with the highest levels of equality and human rights, on the planet. Hell, the rise of human rights even being a thing is recent and came out of all of these historically Christian nations. The uniqueness doesn't come in by mentioning periods in the past that were how you described above. That was the standard. The uniqueness comes in where it was those who left those horrible things behind and disavowed them.

Also, you're a bit off here. Christianity was pretty passive for hundreds of years, to the point that they wouldn't even fight back when being killed. It wasn't until the Roman government coopted Christianity by Constantine that those things you mentioned happened. So was it Christianity? I'd say it was the state the used Christianity as it's tool.

 

[Crunchtime]

In other words, you bury your head in your sand, desperately try to ignore reality, and scream like a banshee when your hypocrisy is exposed.

No. Those are your words and they aren’t an honest summation of the facts. You are a bigot. You attitude defines bigotry. What motivates such hatred is beyond my understanding so therefore I cannot continue trying to communicate with such a vitriolic individual.

 

[snakestretcher]

Have you ever read the Koran and seen all of the commandments in it on how to kill and oppress non Muslims?

So, do you really want to stick to the claim that anti- Muslim protests, including burning a book, or pouring pig blood on it, is actually worse than what Islam teaches to do to non believers?

If these Muslim immigrants did not want to live in a country where people have a right to free speech and free expression of ideas, then why did they immigrate to Sweden?

Have you ever read the Old Testament with all its commands to kill unbelievers, stone women to death, massacre babies along with plenty of smiting? Or is Christian violence somehow exempt? Here are some of the finest...

6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ignores

They don't get the coverage of ISIS or Boko Haram, but organizations like "The Army of God" are no less dangerous

www.salon.com

 

[snakestretcher]

Oh look everyone’s favorite moralistic tankie has arrived.

And he's correct. Don't like it? Tough.
Here are some of my favourite peaceful Christians:

6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ignores

They don't get the coverage of ISIS or Boko Haram, but organizations like "The Army of God" are no less dangerous

www.salon.com

 

[notquiteright]

Our news media would never cover this story. Sweden is the land of hot blonde women and socialist policy happiness.

And now the evil rot of Rabid Right hatred has reared its ugly head...

 

[snakestretcher]

And now the evil rot of Rabid Right hatred has reared its ugly head...

Inevitably and predictably so-and born of ignorance.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Hopefully they don't start flying planes into buildings or shooting up night clubs and newspapers and rock concerts like some other religions...

I'm quite sure that you could find 28 "Traditionalist/Fundamentalist Christians" (that's about 0.0000011875% of all "Christians" [19 is roughly the same percentage of all "Muslims"]) who would would be quite willing to "Die For God" by doing stuff like that.

 

[ChickenTendies]

If a poster quoted KKK or NeoNazi calls for extermination of non-whites, Jews etc, would you call it KKKophobia, or Naziophobia?

Interesting that you decided to respond with a strawman instead of anything of substance. The op cherrypicked the verses from the Quran, without context. These verses were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad during a time of unrest for Muslims. They had been driven out of Mecca — which for many Muslims had been home since birth — by those who refused to accept Muhammad’s teachings. These pagans and idolaters continued to wage war against Muslims even after forcing them to flee from Mecca, but Muhammad remained reluctant to retaliate until God revealed to him the best course of action. Even when God did command Muslims to kill unbelievers, He did so with the provision that they must first be granted the opportunity to convert to Islam or leave Mecca peacefully. Not only that, but if you actually dove a little deeper you would see that the Quran has numerous commandments to be kind to one another, and one verse in particular where God commanded Muhammad to not force religious beliefs upon non-believers, saying:

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Quran, 2:256)

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

So no planes into buildings, and no nightclubs shot up for being gay? Thought not. Did they violently take over a country and ban girls from going to school?

Yeah, didn't think so...

They did, however, "violently take over a country" and "ban -girls- 'N■■■■■s' (and not just the 'Girl N■■■■■s') from going to school". That happened in the country where the first university degree to a female was granted on July 16, 1840. Do you know the name of that country?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

It’s history. Yes, it happened, but a long time ago. And the majority was done by Catholics. The Crusades. The Inquisition. There were Protestant wars, but nothing compared to what the Catholics did.

You don’t get to call people names because of what happened 500 years ago. That’s stupid, and it’s bigotry.

How long does it take after "Group X" stops doing "Y" before the statement "Group X has never done Y." becomes true?

If the US _[fill in the blank]_ Party changed its name to "The New American Socialist Democratic Workers' Party", when would it become true that "The NASis invaded France and also murdered over 15,000,000 people (including around 6,000,000 Jews)."?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I understand it well... thanks.

Sorry, Protestants can't reform Christianity to their vision and kick the others out, claiming they are no longer Christians.

That is ridiculous.

Other than minor points of conduct and ritual, the SOLE difference between "Christianity" and either "Islam" or "Judaism" is the belief that Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret was "divine" (rather than simply a "prophet").

Technically, one could totally reject the authenticity of that book commonly known as "The Bible" and govern a religion according to the precepts of "Jedi" and the religion would still be "Christian" PROVIDED that it taught that Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret was "divine".

 

[Crunchtime]

Yet all the historically Christian nations are the best places, with the highest levels of equality and human rights, on the planet. Hell, the rise of human rights even being a thing is recent and came out of all of these historically Christian nations. The uniqueness doesn't come in by mentioning periods in the past that were how you described above. That was the standard. The uniqueness comes in where it was those who left those horrible things behind and disavowed them.

Also, you're a bit off here. Christianity was pretty passive for hundreds of years, to the point that they wouldn't even fight back when being killed. It wasn't until the Roman government coopted Christianity by Constantine that those things you mentioned happened. So was it Christianity? I'd say it was the state the used Christianity as it's tool.

Agree

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

The first Christians were Jews...

More correctly "The first Christians (at least most of them) had been Jews.". Once cannot be BOTH a "Christian" and a "Jew" because the "Jews" do not consider that Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret was "divine".

The Jews referred to the early followers of Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret as "Nazarenes". The followers of Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret considered themselves to be "Jews" (of the new revelation) NOT "Christians" and called themselves "The Way".

then there is something about Antioch when they became "Christians".

It was around 105 AD when the Romans first (as far as we know from official records) referred to them as "Christians". That term was used disparagingly as they were considered to be a threat to peace, order, and good government.

How is this relevant to Protestants?

Well, for one thing, "Protestants" are simply another branch of "Christianity" and get both the credit and the blame for what went on before them.

This is sort of like the way that the members of "Claque Failed Casino Operator" insist that today's "Democratic Party" is responsible for slavery and all of its ills in the United States of America because it has the same name as the "Democratic Party" that existed in the southern states from the 1850s to the 1950s.

 

[Tender Branson]

Why are you guys reviving this 3-month old thread ?

There are no riots in Sweden RIGHT NOW ...

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Interesting that you decided to respond with a strawman instead of anything of substance. The op cherrypicked the verses from the Quran, without context. These verses were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad during a time of unrest for Muslims. They had been driven out of Mecca — which for many Muslims had been home since birth — by those who refused to accept Muhammad’s teachings. These pagans and idolaters continued to wage war against Muslims even after forcing them to flee from Mecca, but Muhammad remained reluctant to retaliate until God revealed to him the best course of action. Even when God did command Muslims to kill unbelievers, He did so with the provision that they must first be granted the opportunity to convert to Islam or leave Mecca peacefully. Not only that, but if you actually dove a little deeper you would see that the Quran has numerous commandments to be kind to one another, and one verse in particular where God commanded Muhammad to not force religious beliefs upon non-believers, saying:

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Quran, 2:256)

And that is why the vast majority of Muslims are NOT the covert terrorists that the "conservatives" want you to think that they are.

 

[Tigerace117]

No. Those are your words and they aren’t an honest summation of the facts. You are a bigot. You attitude defines bigotry. What motivates such hatred is beyond my understanding so therefore I cannot continue trying to communicate with such a vitriolic individual.

Crying “bigotry” because I point out the facts you are so desperate to avoid only proves my point bud.

You running away because you can’t bear to face the fact that millions upon millions upon millions of innocent people died at the hands of Christians is downright comical.

 

[JH Oldoc]

They had been driven out of Mecca

. Pahleez, Muslims murdered and displaced the Meccan pagans who preceded them, stole the magic space rock, their ceremonies, the name of their god. Muhammad, if he was a real historical character or not, was a militant. Islam was born in militancy, murder and theft, and it is indeed the aim that everyone be converted by one or another means as you yourself noted.
Now, before you tell me that "Christians" (in a classic whataboutism) have done all the same, be assured that it is wholly untrue. The church of Rome maybe, even certainly, but they aren't Christians. What came out of, and after in the legacy of Nicea was not that.
. In any case both are radical conservative cults every bit as bad as what we see in America today, ie Trumptardism et al - which I have little if any tolerance for (conservatism).

 

[Crunchtime]

Y

Crying “bigotry” because I point out the facts you are so desperate to avoid only proves my point bud.

You running away because you can’t bear to face the fact that millions upon millions upon millions of innocent people died at the hands of Christians is downright comical.

Your lies don’t make it true. And it’s not comical. It’s sad.

 

[vanceen]

In the interest of disentangling things a bit...

This "debate" about Christian atrocities has its roots in TUCurmudgeon's assertion that fundamentalist and traditionalist Christians believe that forced conversion is a good thing.

On its face, that looks like a statement about what the broad consensus of non-modernist Christians believe today. As such, it is total nonsense. It is simply and completely untrue.

This led somehow to the question of whether Christians at any time have been violently aggressive or indulged in things like forced conversion. And the answer has to be "yes". I could qualify it a bit better by saying that it's certainly true that people who identified themselves as Christians have been guilty of horrible crimes through history, some of them in the name of Christ.

(Granted some, if not most, of the examples given in this thread of Christian depradations are quite a stretch. One poster put up links about various paranoid schizophrenics shooting up mosques or synagogues as if it was supposed to be evidence of how Christians behave. Extremist fringe groups have been brought up, as if they somehow represent Christians in general.)

But aside from these rhetorical excesses, there is no denying that awful things have been done by people who would tell you that they are Christians, and ostensibly to further the Christian mission. These kinds of things have no justification in New Testament scriptures, and Christians seem to have come to appreciate that fact progressively more over the last few hundred years.

So... No, "traditional" and "fundamentalist" Christians do no accept forced conversion. That's preposterous.

At the same time, it is pointless to try to defend the past by saying "that was a different kind of Christian that wasn't really a Christian", and so forth. As a Christian, my attitude is that those things were very, very wrong and the people who did them were at best very, very wrong-headed.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

And he's correct. Don't like it? Tough.
Here are some of my favourite peaceful Christians:

6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ignores

They don't get the coverage of ISIS or Boko Haram, but organizations like "The Army of God" are no less dangerous

www.salon.com

In the minds of far-right Republicans, Obama committed the ultimate sin by daring to mention that Christianity has a dark side and citing the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition as two examples from the distant past. Obama wasn’t attacking Christianity on the whole but rather, was making the point that just as not all Christians can be held responsible for the horrors of the Inquisition,

The inquisition was a right and good thing that eliminated sources of subversion in Spain and caused many people to renounce error and save their souls.

Since your article starts with a false and atheistic view of history I see no reason why I should believe their claims

 

[Metric Mouse]

They did, however, "violently take over a country" and "ban -girls- 'N■■■■■s' (and not just the 'Girl N■■■■■s') from going to school". That happened in the country where the first university degree to a female was granted on July 16, 1840. Do you know the name of that country?

Holy shit, Islamic militants violently took over country and banned women from school this century?

Sounds awful. I hope they stop.

 

[Metric Mouse]

I'm quite sure that you could find 28 "Traditionalist/Fundamentalist Christians" (that's about 0.0000011875% of all "Christians" [19 is roughly the same percentage of all "Muslims"]) who would would be quite willing to "Die For God" by doing stuff like that.

Hey, let me know when some person claims the virgin mary or st. peter or buddha compels them to detonate in a market, or on an airplane...

Two Killed, Almost 30 Wounded In Afghan Market Attack Amid Spate Of Attacks

At least two people are dead and 28 others wounded after an explosion ripped through a market in the eastern Afghan province of Nangarhar.

gandhara.rferl.org