The worlds newest dictator

[Kelzie]

No matter what the outcome here this is a great post. I even stole it and sen t it to a Young person who has a debate homework assignment. Now she's got a secret weapon... knowledge that the others wont have.

It is not the otus of the person rebutting the argument to proved the person who is making the argument the terms he needs.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Nobody has ever linked any violence in Venezuela with a direct order from Chavez.

Just because he hasn't been linked to any violence doesn't mean he wasn't behind it. I'd imagine that if the reports about his oppresion of freedom of the press is true, nobody is getting the full story on him. Although I admire Chavez's efforts to try and get rid of poverty, if these things are true, than there is no way I could possibly support him.

 

[Inuyasha]

Just because he hasn't been linked to any violence doesn't mean he wasn't behind it. I'd imagine that if the reports about his oppresion of freedom of the press is true, nobody is getting the full story on him.

We could say that about any world leader. But if I said, "Just because there's no link between George Bush, violence and torture doesn't mean he's not sanctioning it." You would say "What? Are you out of your friggen' mind?"

Hard to get a full story on somebody in another government when we (I mean the people) have such a hard time getting the whole story on many of our own politicians. Politicians, they are a sneaky race.

 

[FinnMacCool]

We could say that about any world leader. But if I said, "Just because there's no link between George Bush, violence and torture doesn't mean he's not sanctioning it." You would say "What? Are you out of your friggen' mind?"

Actually, I would agree with you.

Hard to get a full story on somebody in another government when we (I mean the people) have such a hard time getting the whole story on many of our own politicians. Politicians, they are a sneaky race.

True that. Never liked any of them. I sometimes doubt if they are even human :shock:

 

[Inuyasha]

I don't think they are quite human. I think they might be on the lowest rung of talking primates. Talking is their bad point. After they have a couple of drinks i even wonder if their from this planet. They most often don't seem to be in touch with what is going on on Earth.

Earth is a dump, they even send us reject ET's. We don't get no intergalatic respect.

 

[Kelzie]

Just because he hasn't been linked to any violence doesn't mean he wasn't behind it. I'd imagine that if the reports about his oppresion of freedom of the press is true, nobody is getting the full story on him. Although I admire Chavez's efforts to try and get rid of poverty, if these things are true, than there is no way I could possibly support him.

It doesn't mean he wasn't behind it...or ummm...it doesn't mean he wasn't not behind it.

We can't prove it either way. Howabout that? :lol: And since we can't, I am not going to call him a dictator until we can. Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz. I dunno about his supposed reigning in of freedom of press. I ran across quite a few of opposition sites based out of Venezuela. Some even had new letters. He can't be limiting it that much.

 

[MSgt]

I read the wikipedia article. Many thanks Kelzie. Well at the very least, he doesn't seem like a dictator. Of course, I cannot be sure of him. Human rights is, obviously, my biggest concern. I guess we're just gonna have to wait and see.

Exactly. We will have to wait. He has thus far been very careful, but he continues to show that he is traveling down the road of a dictator.

Where we will screw up (because it is in our stupid nature) is that we will look the other way while receiving oil. Where have we done that before?

 

[Kelzie]

Exactly. We will have to wait. He has thus far been very careful, but he continues to show that he is traveling down the road of a dictator.

gunny, I'm going to have to ask you to stop your sniping. Please define dictator. And road. And what did you mean by "exactly", exactly?

 

[FinnMacCool]

It doesn't mean he wasn't behind it...or ummm...it doesn't mean he wasn't not behind it.

We can't prove it either way. Howabout that? And since we can't, I am not going to call him a dictator until we can. Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz. I dunno about his supposed reigning in of freedom of press. I ran across quite a few of opposition sites based out of Venezuela. Some even had new letters. He can't be limiting it that much.

You don't have to call him a dictator. All I'm saying is that if Chavez runs the gov't, its a bit naive to think that he doedsn't manipulate certain things. Just look at Bush. I don't think he's a dictator but I'm sure he has orchestrated certain things and I know there are some shady things that he has done, all completely deniable of course, but nonetheless I still believe he did it. Chavez could be the same way.

Besides Chavez doesn't have to be a dictator to be an asshole.

 

[Kelzie]

You don't have to call him a dictator. All I'm saying is that if Chavez runs the gov't, its a bit naive to think that he doedsn't manipulate certain things. Just look at Bush. I don't think he's a dictator but I'm sure he has orchestrated certain things and I know there are some shady things that he has done, all completely deniable of course, but nonetheless I still believe he did it. Chavez could be the same way.

Well of course he has some control over the government. It's a pretty big leap though to say that he was responsible for some of the violence because he has some influnce in the government.

 

[Touchmaster]

Interestingly, this is a 'dictator' with 65% popularity in opinion polls produced by the most respected of latin american producer of opinion polls, chile's latinbarometro. slightly better than the current US president's 35%, no?

And the same poll asked whether voters were dissatisfied with the way democracy was working in their country. 40% were dissatisfied in Venezuela in 2005 down from 70% in 1996. Going down the wrong path hmm? Interestingly the Venezuelan 40% was the second lowest number of dissatisfied respondents in latin america, after Uruguay, which has also recently elected a moderate socialist government.

Here is a link showing the data from the UK's Economist, which is incidentally is a RIGHT-leaning finance magazine.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5093522

Hows about that then.

Interesting also to note that the Venezuelan economy has grown by 17.5% and 10.5% in the last two years respectively, which compares rather well with the US growth of 3.5% in 2004, so these mad socialists dont neccesarily throw the economy down the pan do they?

And despite all these cries about freedom of expression people seem to conveniently ignore that fact that the private media (controlled by the elite that have lost influence elsewhere) is consistently and very vocally anti-chavez day-in day-out and yet still seems to be operating 7 years after he took office.

Food for thought, no?

And if anyone can provide links about lack of freedom to expression from a human rights group not based in the US (HRW is a well known tool of US interests) then id be interested to see it.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Well of course he has some control over the government. It's a pretty big leap though to say that he was responsible for some of the violence because he has some influnce in the government.

Quite right. That is why we have to wait to see what becomes of him.

 

[Touchmaster]

anyone gonna look at that link then?

this is the graph that shows the fears may perhaps be a little unfounded...

http://www.economist.com/images/20051029/CAM723.gif

 

[Touchmaster]

So to summarise, I dont think we need to worry too much about democracy in a country where 11 elections have been held in 7 years, where the incumbent leader has an approval rating of 65%, where 60% of the country are satisfied or very satisfied with the way democracy is working (the second highest on the continent), where the majority of the press and tv are virulently anti-government and have been for years, and where the economy is the second fastest growing in Latin America - and where levels of poverty and illiteracy are falling and access to healthcare and education is improving - and private investment both national and international is continuing apace.

PS, did anyone look at voter turnout levels for US congressional elections that are run separately from presidential elections...
you might be surprised how low it is.. and thats with no cynical 'boycott' in place
(hint - in 2002 37% of people of voting age voted for the US congress - at a conservative estimate no more than two thirds of them will have voted in the republican majority, ie less than 25% of the population - does that render it illegitimate dictatorial rule?) http://www.eac.gov/election_resources/02to.htm

 

[MSgt]

gunny, I'm going to have to ask you to stop your sniping. Please define dictator. And road. And what did you mean by "exactly", exactly?

Well, you've already defined "dictator."

The "path" is a direction traveled by Castro.

And "exactly" meaning...precisely.

There is too much contriversy surrounding this. How can so many people, before Robertson's outburst, declare him a dictator and so many declare him as the complete opposite? Something isn't right.

 

[Kelzie]

So to summarise, I dont think we need to worry too much about democracy in a country where 11 elections have been held in 7 years, where the incumbent leader has an approval rating of 65%, where 60% of the country are satisfied or very satisfied with the way democracy is working (the second highest on the continent), where the majority of the press and tv are virulently anti-government and have been for years, and where the economy is the second fastest growing in Latin America - and where levels of poverty and illiteracy are falling and access to healthcare and education is improving - and private investment both national and international is continuing apace.

PS, did anyone look at voter turnout levels for US congressional elections that are run separately from presidential elections...
you might be surprised how low it is.. and thats with no cynical 'boycott' in place
(hint - in 2002 37% of people of voting age voted for the US congress - at a conservative estimate no more than two thirds of them will have voted in the republican majority, ie less than 25% of the population - does that render it illegitimate dictatorial rule?) http://www.eac.gov/election_resources/02to.htm

I looked. And I agree.

 

[Kelzie]

Well, you've already defined "dictator."

The "path" is a direction traveled by Castro.

And "exactly" meaning...precisely.

I'm joking you fool. :lol:

 

[MSgt]

I'm joking you fool. :lol:

I knew that. I tracked the whole "sniping" discussion.

 

[Kelzie]

I knew that. I tracked the whole "sniping" discussion.

Wish I could snipe. That would be pretty cool. What's the recoil on those thar sniping rifle thingies?

 

[Kandahar]

Interestingly, this is a 'dictator' with 65% popularity in opinion polls produced by the most respected of latin american producer of opinion polls, chile's latinbarometro.

Well duh, I'm sure Hitler's approval rating was high too, immediately after his democratic election. Chavez hasn't yet taken a stranglehold on his country, but he definitely seems to be heading in that direction.

slightly better than the current US president's 35%, no?

This is irrelevant, and by even bringing it up you immediately show that you're only defending Chavez because he holds certain political views.

And the same poll asked whether voters were dissatisfied with the way democracy was working in their country. 40% were dissatisfied in Venezuela in 2005 down from 70% in 1996. Going down the wrong path hmm? Interestingly the Venezuelan 40% was the second lowest number of dissatisfied respondents in latin america,

Again, a high approval rating doesn't say anything about his authoritarian tendencies.

after Uruguay, which has also recently elected a moderate socialist government.

ALSO? MODERATE? What exactly is moderate about Hugo Chavez? You can't be serious.

Here is a link showing the data from the UK's Economist, which is incidentally is a RIGHT-leaning finance magazine.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5093522

Hows about that then.

Interesting also to note that the Venezuelan economy has grown by 17.5% and 10.5% in the last two years respectively, which compares rather well with the US growth of 3.5% in 2004, so these mad socialists dont neccesarily throw the economy down the pan do they?

That growth rate is not sustainable. Unlike the US economy, the Venezuelan economy is almost entirely dependent on the price of one natural resource, which happens to currently be selling for a lot. In 2003, the Venezuelan economy SHRANK by 11%. Such erratic growth is NOT healthy for an economy.

And despite all these cries about freedom of expression people seem to conveniently ignore that fact that the private media (controlled by the elite that have lost influence elsewhere) is consistently and very vocally anti-chavez day-in day-out and yet still seems to be operating 7 years after he took office.

Food for thought, no?

You're right that there are a few anti-Chavez media sources left, but you drastically exaggerate their influence.

And if anyone can provide links about lack of freedom to expression from a human rights group not based in the US (HRW is a well known tool of US interests) then id be interested to see it.

Wow. I love how you dismiss everything coming out of a country with the largest economy and the third-largest population in the world as automatically not credible. Again, this just shows that you're an idiot and doesn't further your argument at all.

 

[cnredd]

What's the recoil on those thar sniping rifle thingies?

Gunny's in the military...start using military terms he could understand...

Hey Gunny!...What's the recoil on those thar SRTs?...:2wave:

 

[Kelzie]

Well duh, I'm sure Hitler's approval rating was high too, immediately after his democratic election. Chavez hasn't yet taken a stranglehold on his country, but he definitely seems to be heading in that direction.



This is irrelevant, and by even bringing it up you immediately show that you're only defending Chavez because he holds certain political views.



Again, a high approval rating doesn't say anything about his authoritarian tendencies.



ALSO? MODERATE? What exactly is moderate about Hugo Chavez? You can't be serious.



That growth rate is not sustainable. Unlike the US economy, the Venezuelan economy is almost entirely dependent on the price of one natural resource, which happens to currently be selling for a lot. In 2003, the Venezuelan economy SHRANK by 11%. Such erratic growth is NOT healthy for an economy.



You're right that there are a few anti-Chavez media sources left, but you drastically exaggerate their influence.



Wow. I love how you dismiss everything coming out of a country with the largest economy and the third-largest population in the world as automatically not credible. Again, this just shows that you're an idiot and doesn't further your argument at all.

Please don't call people an idiot. I'm a-askin nicely.

 

[MSgt]

Wish I could snipe. That would be pretty cool. What's the recoil on those thar sniping rifle thingies?

They're not bad at all. Although, I've never fired the M-40 (Sniper Rifle).

 

[Kelzie]

They're not bad at all. Although, I've never fired the M-40 (Sniper Rifle).

Oh. Oops gunny. Don't feel bad. They're called SRTs now. I won't tell anyone.

 

[Touchmaster]

Kandahar
Well considering the US is the only country whose government has decided to take an interest in the obviously gigantic problems in Venezuela, I thought it would be interesting to point out that the current administration there perhaps shouldnt throw stones..

People were saying he wasnt popular any more, the 65% approval rating (from late 2005) perhaps refutes that.. I think comparing him to hitler is a little disingenuous here - Chavez has been in power for seven years and his approval rating has risen over that time..

Im not defending chavez, and i have no set ideologies (clearly unlike some of the posters here), im just trying to look past the rhetoric and propaganda..

So with a high approval rating you are authoritarian, and without presumably you are more democratic???

The countries growth plunged in 2003 because of the sabotage of the entire oil industry by the old elite that were trying to oust chavez by destabilising the economy. that it recovered so quickly is testament to the government's fiscal prudence.

There are still just as many anti-chavez media sources as there ever was. all the main commercial tv stations and newspapers are still running just as they ever were - if you can read spanish i suggest you check them out if you want to see media that makes fox news look fair and balanced - against the government.

Of course i dont discount us sources or us charities. Im just saying that only us sources seem to be coming up with the more wild accusations about chavez, linked as they are with the us establishment which fears any attempt at self-determination in its perceived backyard. im sure the british empire was the same in its day.
Im more inclined to trust the combined opinion of the rest of the world than those of one country and its stooges in another country.