The worlds newest dictator

[Deegan]

Did I write the article? We don't need to do what Venezuela is doing to improve its lot. And Venezuela can't do what we do. They are too far down the food chain. They have to do what they have to do. Now my question to you (in the plural) Do you want to invade them and set up a pro-American government with a military dictator?

Here is am other site. Beware anti-Venezuelans it is pro-Chavez. Can you find me its opposite number.? I have searched but so far I can't find one..

I just questioned your intentions on why you would link an article like this one, it's obviously a socialists view of the situation. I have always found it interesting that some folks can assume the worst about someone intentions, and motivations, just because they may be rich, successful, wealthy, etc. This does not seem any different then most countries, 20% of a country being well off that is, I don't see the problem, and I certainly don't see the need to apologize for being wealthy. The point I am making is this, this is how most dictators have come to power, this same rhetoric gets them elected, but they rarely follow through. To answer your question, no, I do not want to overthrow Chavez, nor do I want to install any leader. I would like to see them do this, and I think we can help by assuring that the elections are fair. I think Carter did nothing more then lend his face and name, though I think the elections were clear, Hugo was the popular choice. I only now, believe that he has lost a lot of support, and he realizes this, now he must act quickly to hold on to his power. His actions as of late, they seem those of a desperate man, one that knows his popularity is at risk, so he blames others, mainly the U.S. This is all very carefully planned and plotted, democracy is being threatened there IMO, and it's disturbing to me.

 

[Kelzie]

Hey, GySgt, ask her to define her terms before you waste your time trying to convincer her of something. It's a losing proposition to keep offering evidence if you have no idea of whether or not your goal is even attainable. For example, if she's looking for a copy of the memo Chavez sent to have somebody killed that says "Hello, my name is Hugo Chavez, and I order that Juan Bloyo should be shot today... signed, Hugo Chavez" you know you're never going to fulfill your burden. Always ask for terms to be defined, and if you're lucky enough to get an answer, then you have your work cut out for you.

Hey don't make me seem like the bad guy. I've already asked for a working definition of a dictator so we're all on the same page.

 

[Kelzie]

Well maybe you would prefer Amnesty International......


http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/venezuela/document.do?id=ar&yr=2005

Whatever floats your boat. From your kindly provided source:

In August the President won a referendum on whether he should serve out the remaining two years of his six-year term. The opposition made allegations of electoral fraud but international observers and electoral authorities confirmed the legitimacy of the result.

 

[Deegan]

Whatever floats your boat. From your kindly provided source:

I never said he was not elected, I think he is not so popular today though. Is this really all you took from that? My God, you are a sympathizer.:doh

 

[Kelzie]

I never said he was not elected, I think he is not so popular today though. Is this really all you took from that? My God, you are a sympathizer.:doh

He's..not...so..popular...today...Refresh my memory. What percentage of the popular vote did he just get? He got a little over 50% in 2000.

And the rest of the stuff commented on violence in Venezuela. Nothing that can be linked to Chavez.

 

[MSgt]

I never said he was not elected, I think he is not so popular today though. Is this really all you took from that? My God, you are a sympathizer.:doh

I think she just like to play devil's advocate from time to time.

 

[robin]

.....and more garbage. By the way...care to tell us about the CIA and Pinochet?:roll:

Thanks for your infantile response to my posts. "More garbage & I'm a leftie... I'm bored, MI6 is as bad"
Now that is the same old garbage.. the same old garbage/cliches from an indoctrinated yank & it hardly denies the fact that the USA is the most self righteous, hypocritical nation on the planet.
You criticise the likes of Chavez for being a dictator yet you've spent decades actually supporting or installing dictators. You are a good example of a human being as absurd as a banana riding a seal. You're mad.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

 

[Deegan]

He's..not...so..popular...today...Refresh my memory. What percentage of the popular vote did he just get? He got a little over 50% in 2000.

And the rest of the stuff commented on violence in Venezuela. Nothing that can be linked to Chavez.

The vote is in question, and the EU is supposed to hand down a report today, here's the story, but it is U.S criticism, so this won't mean much obviously.:spin:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051206...dFvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

 

[MSgt]

Thanks for your infantile response to my posts. "More garbage & I'm a leftie... I'm bored, MI6 is as bad"
Now that is the same old garbage.. the same old garbage/cliches from an indoctrinated yank & it hardly denies the fact that the USA is the most self righteous, hypocritical nation on the planet.
You criticise the likes of Chavez for being a dictator yet you've spent decades actually supporting or installing dictators. You are a good example of a human being as absurd as a banana riding a seal. You're mad.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

Soooo the thread is about Chavez....you barge in and turn the thread into how bad the CIA and America is.....and then I say crying about the CIA constantly is boring and I might as well cry about MI6....and then you say I'm infantile for bringing up MI6 after you brought up the CIA which deviated from the thread of Chavez.:roll:

...and more garbage from Canucks best friend.

 

[Deegan]

Soooo the thread is about Chavez....you barge in and turn the thread into how bad the CIA and America is.....and then I say crying about the CIA constantly is boring and I might as well cry about MI6....and then you say I'm infantile for bringing up MI6 after you brought up the CIA which deviated from the thread of Chavez.:roll:

...and more garbage from Canucks best friend.

My gosh, these folks and their one track minds, they must have bleeding ulcers due to our terrible country.:roll:

 

[FinnMacCool]

Okay I've been reading this thread since it started and I still can't take a stance. So I have two questions for you all.

1) What are Chavez politics? Obviously socialist but what more specifically? Theres a difference between being a communist and being a social democrat or whatever else comes in between. That I think is important.

2) what types of reforms is he making?

3) How has behaved as a president so far? Has he been generally tolerant of other opinions or has he been oppressive?

I'm a little skeptical that Chavez would actually order killings this early in the game, if its true he is turning into a dictator. I don't know the man though and I'm trying to make an opinion on him. Anything you an tell me is helpful

 

[FinnMacCool]

Another thing. Socialism isn idealogy but there are extremes of everything. Communism is one example. To paint a picture of socialism as "evil", as I'm seeing some people (*cough*Deegan*cough) is just left overs of Cold War propaganda ands its both inaccurate and wrong.

 

[Kandahar]

Okay I've been reading this thread since it started and I still can't take a stance. So I have two questions for you all.

1) What are Chavez politics? Obviously socialist but what more specifically? Theres a difference between being a communist and being a social democrat or whatever else comes in between. That I think is important.

Well officially he's a socialist and he's never really publicly endorsed communism. But his policies are a lot more like Cuba's than Sweden's.

2) what types of reforms is he making?

Destroying economic freedom, ruining his country's credit, illegally funnelling money to socialist politicians elsewhere in South America, and supporting terrorism in Colombia.

3) How has behaved as a president so far? Has he been generally tolerant of other opinions or has he been oppressive?

He has sharply cracked down on freedom of the press, and imprisoned his political opponents on sketchy criminal charges.

 

[FinnMacCool]

He has sharply cracked down on freedom of the press, and imprisoned his political opponents on sketchy criminal charges.

Should I take your word for it or are you willing to provide a source?

Destroying economic freedom, ruining his country's credit, illegally funnelling money to socialist politicians elsewhere in South America, and supporting terrorism in Colombia.

yeah I can trust that.

 

[Inuyasha]

The vote is in question, and the EU is supposed to hand down a report today, here's the story, but it is U.S criticism, so this won't mean much obviously.:spin:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051206...dFvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

I thought the article was pretty good and gives a good balance to the one I posted (the article not the web site). There are also links to some other articles at the end of the piece and those too are interesting. I especially like the one from the CSM. I still have two left to read.

 

[Deegan]

Another thing. Socialism isn idealogy but there are extremes of everything. Communism is one example. To paint a picture of socialism as "evil", as I'm seeing some people (*cough*Deegan*cough) is just left overs of Cold War propaganda ands its both inaccurate and wrong.

Huh?

I never said evil, never, I will say that it does not work, and has not worked, but never evil. We all have some social programs, but when they interfere with captialism, it's gone too far. This Chavez idea, of take from the rich, give to the poor, this will fail as well, always has.:doh

 

[FinnMacCool]

The election has further polarized Venezuela, already deeply divided by Chavez's "revolutionary" rhetoric, his leftist policies and his increasingly close ties with Cuba's Fidel Castro.

Does anyone see a little bias in this? Isn't Chavez's form of socialism more "evolutionary" then "revolutionary"? And I don't get the assertion about the extremely close ties to Fidel Castro. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Deegan]

Does anyone see a little bias in this? Isn't Chavez's form of socialism more "evolutionary" then "revolutionary"? And I don't get the assertion about the extremely close ties to Fidel Castro. What does that have to do with anything?

Are you really that ignorant?

If I was hanging with Saddam and Fidel, I would hope that someone would take notice, and slap some sense in to me.:shock:

And there is nothing new about Chavez's plan, it's failed before, it will again.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Huh?

I never said evil, never, I will say that it does not work, and has not worked, but never evil. We all have some social programs, but when they interfere with captialism, it's gone too far. This Chavez idea, of take from the rich, give to the poor, this will fail as well, always has.

I can't really respond properly to that because I am unusure exactly of Chavez's policies are. But I think summing up everything hes trying to do in one sentence doesn't work well.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Are you really that ignorant?

If I was hanging with Saddam and Fidel, I would hope that someone would take notice, and slap some sense in to me.

And there is nothing new about Chavez's plan, it's failed before, it will again.

Where has it failed? I want to see where your coming from.

 

[Deegan]

Where has it failed? I want to see where your coming from.

This gentleman has expressed it much better then I could, or perhaps I'm just too lazy!


http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/libertarianism/failed.html

 

[teacher]

I think she just like to play devil's advocate from time to time.

Communication relay......

 

[FinnMacCool]

This gentleman has expressed it much better then I could, or perhaps I'm just too lazy

I only had to read the first paragraph to know how general this article is. Socialism is a very broad political movement. In some different forms its actually more capitalist then people think. Democratic Socialism in particular is an extremly wide ranging political movement with may different philosophies and variations of how things should generally be done. Chavez seems to be a democratic socialist. That is why I keep asking for what exactly is stances on things are but it seems like nobody even knows.

I'm not a fan of extreme left socialism ( communist/marxism etc) and, in a way, I hope its dead.

 

[Deegan]

I only had to read the first paragraph to know how general this article is. Socialism is a very broad political movement. In some different forms its actually more capitalist then people think. Democratic Socialism in particular is an extremly wide ranging political movement with may different philosophies and variations of how things should generally be done. Chavez seems to be a democratic socialist. That is why I keep asking for what exactly is stances on things are but it seems like nobody even knows.

So.....you don't really want to know, do you?

How can you expect me, or anyone, to get the information that he refuses to provide? He is very tight lipped about his policies, good luck finding anything relevant.:roll:

 

[Inuyasha]

I only had to read the first paragraph to know how general this article is. Socialism is a very broad political movement. In some different forms its actually more capitalist then people think. Democratic Socialism in particular is an extremly wide ranging political movement with may different philosophies and variations of how things should generally be done. Chavez seems to be a democratic socialist. That is why I keep asking for what exactly is stances on things are but it seems like nobody even knows.

I'm not a fan of extreme left socialism ( communist/marxism etc) and, in a way, I hope its dead.

You are right about the loose use of the word "Socialism" in some quarters. last year i was in Spain just after the "Socialists" won and i heard one guy say "Them again? When the hell is the left going to win something?"