The world's most succinct argument FOR the minimum wage.

I wouldn't care if they only wanted to increase the minimum to $8-9 per hour (more like the most recent changes); it is the proposed change to more than double it within 5 years that I think is a bad idea. Just because employers have been willing to pay many employees $8-12 per hour so far that doesn't mean they will be willing to pay nearly as many $15/hour even for more experienced workers let alone as the most basic entry-level starting wage; the extra money will add up for multiple people working full-time.

Even if we ignore the risk of increased unemployment and small business closures, I still don't see how it would be fair to the majority involved to basically devalue the dollar and increase prices that much that fast for everyone simply for the sake of the minority that currently make less than $15/hour.

What about people that don't get a raise and are already living paycheck to paycheck, should they have to max out their credit cards, sell their house, etc. because of this? What about retired people that only have so much saved and/or from pensions, social security, etc.? That's who I worry about more than teenagers still living with their parents that are actually making the 7.25 minimum these days.

The more all of us make, the more all of us spend. If one of us is making a ton of dough and all the rest of us are broke, the economy goes in the toilet. Henry Ford realized this a long time ago. Raise the minimum over time to 15 bucks and see all prices and spending adjust to the new minimum. If you think I am wrong, ask yourself if the reverse happened, would prices drop?

MrWonka said:

I made no such claim. My argument is that raising the minimum wage has little to no impact on the number of jobs available.

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How do you account for the fact that the academic literature on the question rather strongly suggests otherwise?

MrWonka said:

Bwahahahahahahahah!!!!

Four posts and you're still desperately trying to ignore the argument you can't rebuttal.

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"Everyone who disagrees with me is a poopy head" isn't an argument. It's an ad hominem fallacy, and not even an entertaining one.

The number of people who are looking for jobs and can't find them.

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Bingo. Does that number include the long-term unemployed who are therefore no longer actively searching?

ie: the people who would, in fact, be structurally unemployed?

cpwill said:

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a poopy head" isn't an argument. It's an ad hominem fallacy and not even an entertaining one.

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Look dude, either you go back and read the OP slower, ask someone smarter to read it for you or quit wasting my ****ing time with this crap. You haven't even attempted to address the point of this thread yet. Every time you reply without grasping the basics you just prove me correct.

cpwill said:

How do you account for the fact that the academic literature on the question rather strongly suggests otherwise?

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two reasons...
1.) It doesn't.

2.) If you actually read the OP like I asked you'd know that we've raised the MW more than 20 times since the 1930s and still, as recently as a few years ago we had full employment.
So I don't give a rat's ass what dipshit book your claiming says otherwise. We had full employment as recently as two years ago. You can't lose jobs if everybody has one.

MrWonka said:

Look dude, either you go back and read the OP slower, ask someone smarter to read it for you or quit wasting my ****ing time with this crap. You haven't even attempted to address the point of this thread yet. Every time you reply without grasping the basics you just prove me correct.

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The argument that people who disagree with you are "dipshits" and "the CBO is a bunch of self-centered shitbags who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves" is an ad hominem. It's not, actually a response to any of the points raised by the CBO when they point out that, yes, hiking the MW to $15 as proposed would likely cost about 1.4 million people their jobs, disproportionately the poorest among us.

MrWonka said:

two reasons...
1.) It doesn't.

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Sadly, it does. If you like, I can cite some of the relevant literature for you.

2.) If you actually read the OP like I asked you'd know that we've raised the MW more than 20 times since the 1930s and still, as recently as a few years ago we had full employment.
So I don't give a rat's ass what dipshit book your claiming says otherwise. We had full employment as recently as two years ago. You can't lose jobs if everybody has one.

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....what do you think 5% unemployment means?

Helix said:

the most succinct argument is to work as a server in a red state on a Tuesday night when nobody shows up. then don't spend the ten bucks all in one place.

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Servers are exempt from the minimum wage, so increasing the minimum wage is irrelevant for them.

MrWonka said:

If raising the minimum wage killed jobs the way right-wing dip shits claim it does then there should be no jobs left in America whatsoever.

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You are clearly more interested in baiting then intellectual discussion. The problem with a $15.00 minimum wage is that the consequences would be mostly negative, starting with massive layoffs followed by many low or no-skilled labor jobs becoming automated. Even ignoring all of that, the rise in the cost of goods and services would in the long run make the minimum wage increase a wash to those it's allegedly intended to help.

Two groups don't want the minimum wage raised.

Wealthy business owners and those white working class republican voters who have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda

rickc said:

Two groups don't want the minimum wage raised.

Wealthy business owners and those white working class republican voters who have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda

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By "Right Wing Propaganda" you mean "The Congressional Budget Office"?

Wayne Jr said:

Servers are exempt from the minimum wage, so increasing the minimum wage is irrelevant for them.

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$2.13 an hour. that exception should be removed.

Helix said:

$2.13 an hour. that exception should be removed.

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What effect do you think that would have on restaurant prices, and, as a result, whether or not lower income workers will be able to afford them, v restaurants becoming a luxury of the upper/middle classes?

cpwill said:

What effect do you think that would have on restaurant prices, and, as a result, whether or not lower income workers will be able to afford them, v restaurants becoming a luxury of the upper/middle classes?

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paying servers actual minimum wage? i doubt that it's going to price many out of the cheeseburger market.

Helix said:

paying servers actual minimum wage? i doubt that it's going to price many out of the cheeseburger market.

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Well, much of the cheeseburger market is fast food, and doesn't apply here.

The question is mandating $15 an hour minimum wage for waiters. So that's your sit-down, table-served restaurants: Outback, California Pizza Kitchen, Sushi places, Thai restaurants, etc.

What do you think the impact of that will be on their prices, and, what do you think the impact of those price changes will be on the ability of lower income folks to eat there?

cpwill said:

Well, much of the cheeseburger market is fast food, and doesn't apply here.

The question is mandating $15 an hour minimum wage for waiters. So that's your sit-down, table-served restaurants: Outback, California Pizza Kitchen, Sushi places, Thai restaurants, etc.

What do you think the impact of that will be on their prices, and, what do you think the impact of those price changes will be on the ability of lower income folks to eat there?

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i'm more for tying the minimum wage to inflation so that congress doesn't have to act. maybe eleven an hour with no server exception, and we focus on making post secondary education and job training as available as high school so that people aren't trying to support a family long term on an entry level salary.

Helix said:

i'm more for tying the minimum wage to inflation so that congress doesn't have to act. maybe eleven an hour with no server exception, and we focus on making post secondary education and job training as available as high school so that people aren't trying to support a family long term on an entry level salary.

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I'm a H-U-G-E fan of expanding our support for post-secondary options instead of putting all resources into supporting the relatively small percentage of those who are most likely to already be headed towards ending up the best off. I'm weighing making some kind of a trade part of our kids' high school, so, even if they go to college, they have that to fall back on or pursue as a profession. Mark me down for the petition, march, advocacy, etc.

But.... The question itself kinda remains: what is the effect of that sudden hike in labor costs likely to be in terms of prices at restaurants, and what effect will that have on whether those restaurants are more limited to the middle/upper classes?

rickc said:

Two groups don't want the minimum wage raised.

Wealthy business owners and those white working class republican voters who have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda

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You left out elderly and/or disabled retirees living on fixed pension incomes.

cpwill said:

What effect do you think that would have on restaurant prices, and, as a result, whether or not lower income workers will be able to afford them, v restaurants becoming a luxury of the upper/middle classes?

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IMO, restaurants are already out of range of the rank and file. Definition of a restaurant requires a little narrowing.....

Rexedgar said:

IMO, restaurants are already out of range of the rank and file. Definition of a restaurant requires a little narrowing.....

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I listed the ones I used to eat at back when I was young, dumb, and low income. After having a family, expenses changed a bit.

Helix said:

i'm more for tying the minimum wage to inflation so that congress doesn't have to act. maybe eleven an hour with no server exception, and we focus on making post secondary education and job training as available as high school so that people aren't trying to support a family long term on an entry level salary.

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Yep, having more folks become able to escape having to work in “entry level” McJobs is far more practical than trying to devise ways of having McJobs become viable McCareers.

cpwill said:

I'm a H-U-G-E fan of expanding our support for post-secondary options instead of putting all resources into supporting the relatively small percentage of those who are most likely to already be headed towards ending up the best off. I'm weighing making some kind of a trade part of our kids' high school, so, even if they go to college, they have that to fall back on or pursue as a profession. Mark me down for the petition, march, advocacy, etc.

But.... The question itself kinda remains: what is the effect of that sudden hike in labor costs likely to be in terms of prices at restaurants, and what effect will that have on whether those restaurants are more limited to the middle/upper classes?

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if paying people $2.13 is the limit a restaurant owner can offer a worker, then the business model needs some work.

as for a vocational school at the high school, i think that's a great idea. we had one. it helped a lot of kids get started in trades.

cpwill said:

I'm a H-U-G-E fan of expanding our support for post-secondary options instead of putting all resources into supporting the relatively small percentage of those who are most likely to already be headed towards ending up the best off. I'm weighing making some kind of a trade part of our kids' high school, so, even if they go to college, they have that to fall back on or pursue as a profession. Mark me down for the petition, march, advocacy, etc.

But.... The question itself kinda remains: what is the effect of that sudden hike in labor costs likely to be in terms of prices at restaurants, and what effect will that have on whether those restaurants are more limited to the middle/upper classes?

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Well for starters, we could do away with tipping like they do in Europe. We all pay an extra 15-20 points to pay workers because their employer wants us to subsidize them.

Helix said:

if paying people $2.13 is the limit a restaurant owner can offer a worker, then the business model needs some work.

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If you succeed in your proposed changes, it will. Specifically, it will fire or severely curtail it's staff's hours, and increase prices so as to keep low income people from being as able to afford it

If it's one of the mega chains, who will be better able to afford the transition. If it's a mom and pop, less so. :-/

My town is right on the edge of rural and urban. We have a nice and improving downtown, racially diverse neighborhood, etc. But it's all family owned. Local ice cream parlor is rated the best in the State, has been on the food network, BBC, etc. Restaurants, are: a general hamburger American fusion joint, a couple of diners, a Mexican place, a healthy juice bar thing... We've got a quincinera shop that connects to a stylist, a florist, a barbershop, a couple of boutiques, a crafts place, and a martial arts venue. Some friends of ours are saving up to open a coffee shop.

But the restaurant side is all by hitting local kids. Probably a significant portion of the kids who have grown up here have, at one point, slung ice cream in that shop.

Over on the other side, across the in between space and the highway, is McWorld. Anything locally owned there is the little side shops nestled into the Food Lion. Restaurants are Hardee's, McDonalds, a Mexican chain, a couple of pizza chains..... They've got the money. They've got the backing of massive international corporations. All we've got is a nice town.

The idea that, if you aren't McWorld, you don't deserve to exist... that, if you can't pay a 16 year old enough to feed a family of four for scooping ice cream part time.... "lols, guess your business model sucks!" .....strikes me as disconnected from reality as it is destructive. What are we supposed to tell the Quincinera store, or the Mexican family who makes actual delicious Mexican food? "Sorry, a socialist from Vermont thinks you are an oppressor; go back to Mexico, you loser with a terrible business plan, whose dream doesn't deserve to survive because people you have never met and never served find it unaesthetic."?

And so those fun little local businesses will close. McWorld will survive; in fact, McWorld will benefit from having had the State crush it's competition. We will get another ugly dunkin donut / baskin robbins to replace the ice cream shop. Maybe an Applebee's instead of the family restaurants, or a Waffle House to replace the family diners.

as for a vocational school at the high school, i think that's a great idea. we had one. it helped a lot of kids get started in trades.

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That's excellent to hear. Our current system is so destructive, and focuses our efforts on those who probably need it least. Education should say least try to help others.