Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!JOHNYJ said:For the last couple of years of because of greed
or liberal anti christian Bias.The major department stores in the USA have not been using the word " CHRISTMAS '.They use Holiday,winter anything,but CHRISTMAS. They like all those Christians buying in their stores they just dont respect them. The back lash has begun, this year fueled by the Fox TV network .Christians are complaining and where possible boycotting those that don't respect them.
Holiday Trees are back to being Christmas Trees, MerryChristmas signs are up. There are still some like Sears Roebuck and others that continue to push their PC/money hungry ways but they are being criticised and don't like it.
The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other. In m own area High schools dont allowe any Christmas music that is religious .So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells isin.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back.
26 X World Champs said:Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!
Give me a break! Stop you're whining! I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one. Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity.
Boo hoo hoo....poor subjugated American Christians!
Not my point, allow me to clarify? Merry Christmas is OK with me. Nativity scenes on government property are not OK. Christmas songs in school? Sure, so long as there are songs from other faiths too. Is that fair?debate_junkie said:You may not celebrate Christmas, but should the rest of the world stop? Your belief is your belief... should we all celebrate Hanukkah? or Kwaanza? I think there HAS to come a point where we stop wanting it one way.. or the highway!
Please! The whining is ringing through the Internet. All of those "examples" are undocumented and in some instances 45 years old. None are from 2005, 2004, 2003? How come?doughgirl said:26XWorldchamps..........
These are just a few examples taken from that book.
They are documented and fact.
In Texas, 1995 Samuel Kent a federal judge told American students if they prayed in the name of JESUS, they would be sentenced to a 6 month jail term. (Worldnetdaily, 2001 "Santa is Appalled)
Judge Ira DeMent on October 30, 1997 tried to issue that a monitor who would roam the halls of high schools to listen in on conversations to make sure no one was praying. Prayer police? This was tried but overruled.
In Omaha Nebraska a student was prohibited from reading his bible silently during free time or even to open his bible at school. (Gierke v Blotzer)
It is unconstitutional for a school library to contain books that deal with Christianity or for a teacher to be seen with a personal copy of the bible at school (Roberts v Madigan, 1960)
In Maryland schools you can’t hand out Christmas cards to friends.
Red Poinsettias were banned from the Ramsey Court House in St Paul Minn because they offended a person who believes the flowers are a symbol of Christianity.
In Worthington Ohio, Students were prohibited from bringing in Christmas cookies with the colors red and green or in the shapes of bells or stars. Tolerance?????
It’s unconstitutional for a public cemetery to have a planter in the shape of a cross, that it might cause emotional damage to an unbeliever. (Warsaw v Tehachapi, 1990)
There are hundreds of examples of laws being changed against the Christian.
And who is tolerant?
For the last couple of years of because of greed
or liberal anti christian Bias.The major department stores in the USA have not been using the word " CHRISTMAS '.They use Holiday,winter anything,but CHRISTMAS.
So what are you gonna do about it?They like all those Christians buying in their stores they just dont respect them.
I wouldn't expect anything lessThe back lash has begun, this year fueled by the Fox TV network .Christians are complaining and where possible boycotting those that don't respect them.
I've always remembered them being called christmas trees.Holiday Trees are back to being Christmas Trees,
MerryChristmas signs are up.
There are still some like Sears Roebuck and others that continue to push their PC/money hungry ways but they are being criticised and don't like it.
Where?The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other.
I don't think I believe you. Maybe people just like jingle bells better?In m own area High schools dont allowe any Christmas music that is religious .So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells isin.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back.
26 X World Champs said:Not my point, allow me to clarify? Merry Christmas is OK with me. Nativity scenes on government property are not OK. Christmas songs in school? Sure, so long as there are songs from other faiths too. Is that fair?
What irks me is when someone write stuff like kids aren't allowed to wear red and green to school or say "Merry Christmas" in school but there's no proof of that at all, no links, just what appears to be made up whining.
The whining is irritating. I seem to recall that Bush lit the national Christmas Tree the other day, is that not enough proof that Christianity is not under full frontal assault?
The question to those who protest the changes to Christmas is what changes are acceptable? What should be done to make it all-inclusive? Please be specific as to what you would do to make everyone happy, not just the Christians who feel so attacked.
And why is that? What can't you do anymore that makes it so hard to be a Christian? Do you think athiests have different principles than Christians? How about Jews or Muslims? Do they have different principles too?t125eagle said:i think its sad. the united states were founded on so many good christian principles and its all going down the drain. so many atheist have made such a fuss and now its harder to be a christian than ever before in this country.
Why should there be prayers outloud in school? It's been determined to be unconstitutional not to mention that anyone can pray anywhere they want at anytime. You might have to do it silently at times, but you can always pray, no one will ever stop you.t125eagle said:i think we should still have prayer in school instead of a moment of silence. if you are agnostic or aethist, you dont have to pray. if you are jewish, pray to god. i shall not print his name because i know what it means. if you are muslim, pray to allah. its that simple in my opinion.
26 X World Champs said:And why is that? What can't you do anymore that makes it so hard to be a Christian? Do you think athiests have different principles than Christians? How about Jews or Muslims? Do they have different principles too?
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how Christians are being treated unequally when there are churches every couple of blocks that don't pay taxes and where there are dozens if not hundreds of weekly shows on TV that are all about being Christian. Do you see any Jewish or Muslim TV shows?
Why should there be prayers outloud in school? It's been determined to be unconstitutional not to mention that anyone can pray anywhere they want at anytime. You might have to do it silently at times, but you can always pray, no one will ever stop you.
I find it interesting when people say that non-religious people over react to religion, especially if it spills over to where non-religious people are "blamed" for societies problems!
Government must be areligious, always, and for some reason this really bothers some Americans who want government to choose a religion that in effect would exclude part of the population.
Religious freedom is everywhere in the USA.
Xmas is everywhere you turn, and identified as Xmas. How many Xmas specials are there on TV in December? C'mon, to me it's like a spoiled child the day after Halloween complaining that his parents won't let him eat candy.debate_junkie said:But you HAVE to admit, it's suspect when people are being told that the word Christmas cannot be used to identify a tree, or a party, right?
I agree. I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is that government gives tons of special privileges to religion. In theory Christians are not complaining about Christianity not being allowed in government, they're complaining about religion not being permitted. Which, BTW, is why HAPPY HOLIDAYS works in public so well. As a Jew it feels a bit odd when someone who doesn't know me assumes I'm Christian and wishes me Merry Christmas. I still appreciate the thought, but I would appreciate the person and respect them more for saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS.debate_junkie said:ALL houses of worship, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim are tax exempt in the United States of America. So that is a moot point, Champs, and I think you even know that.
Government is closed on Xmas, as are schools, stores, parking regulations, etc.debate_junkie said:Government is trying to be areligious, and in doing so is being exclusionary to the Christian holiday of Christmas. Schools are a government entity, right? Schools are banning christmas carols, and even the word being used in school, right? So aren't they deciding religion for that particular school?
26 X World Champs said:Xmas is everywhere you turn, and identified as Xmas. How many Xmas specials are there on TV in December? C'mon, to me it's like a spoiled child the day after Halloween complaining that his parents won't let him eat candy.
I agree. I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is that government gives tons of special privileges to religion. In theory Christians are not complaining about Christianity not being allowed in government, they're complaining about religion not being permitted. Which, BTW, is why HAPPY HOLIDAYS works in public so well. As a Jew it feels a bit odd when someone who doesn't know me assumes I'm Christian and wishes me Merry Christmas. I still appreciate the thought, but I would appreciate the person and respect them more for saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS.
Government is closed on Xmas, as are schools, stores, parking regulations, etc.
As a Jew with kids do you think I'm comfortable with Xmas songs being sung in their public school? Or do you think it's OK for my children to see Xmas being celebrated in their school but not their religion? Same is true for all the other minority religions. Children are impressionable, if they see that one religion is favored by the government more than another or more than their religion doesn't that send the wrong message?
During Passover should public schools have an outdoor homage to the Passover Seder? By this I mean should a Jewish holiday be extolled, separately, in public places too? The bottom line is that religion has no place in any public school or square, but you can build the greatest nativity scene you want on any private property that can still be easily viewed by the masses and that will evoke the "spirit" of the season.
I just can't agree with you, I'm sorry. Show me even one weekly Jewish show vs. the countless number of Christian shows every Sunday? These shows this time of year are 100% Xmas.debate_junkie said:No matter how you mask it, there IS an assult on Christmas, in the name of being "tolerant" to other religions. And I will stick with my earlier assertion... it's ALL or NOTHING.
26 X World Champs said:I just can't agree with you, I'm sorry. Show me even one weekly Jewish show vs. the countless number of Christian shows every Sunday? These shows this time of year are 100% Xmas.
My bottom line is that religion should not be in any public arena without exception, and for me it doesn't matter which religion it is.
Since there are quadzillion ways that Christianity is displayed everyday in every hamlet in America and since no one is preventing anyone from practicing their religion in anywhere except on government property it seems to me that Christianity is prospering in America. My God! Look at the leader of the country, isn't he a born again Christian? Doesn't he mention God in his speeches all the time? Isn't God part of his public personna? If Bush brings his religion into his politics then it is natural for the opposition to dispute his choices and to dispute it's place in the public arena if they feel it is improper.
I really think this comes down to some Christians wanting their religion to run rampant in the government, and any attempt to curb the expanse of Christianity in government is met with an outcry of "the war on Christmas" or "the attack on Christianity in America." I'm sorry, I just don't feel that is true, but that is simply my humble opinion. This is not an issue that one can say is absolute fact either way.
Huh? Are you saying Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athesiest, Wickers, et al celebrate the birth of Christ?debate_junkie said:It sounds to me that you are automatically qualifying anyone who celebrates Christmas as Christian, and if that is so, then you are gravely mistaken. How is the Christmas tree a symbol of Christianity?
Here's a simple POLITE expression that insures everyone is not offended, HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Perhaps not for you, but for me being considerate means saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS. Perhaps you live in a place that lacks diversity. I live in New York City, probably the most diverse city in the world. Here it is customary to say HAPPY HOLIDAYS because you don't know who's affiliated with which religion or non-religion. Why are you so against being sensitive to other people?debate_junkie said:How is saying, Merry Christmas offensive to you? Simply because you don't celebrate it? You mention you feel put off because people say, Merry Christmas.. which is probably what they're used to.. Are they supposed to stop and say... OMG I don't know this person, how should I wish them a merry christmas?
I do not understand what you wrote here? It reads to me "my way or the highway" which I find insensitive. Do you live somewhere where everyone is the same?debate_junkie said:Geesh, that's expecting a little much, don't you think? For someone to IMPLICITLY change the way they relate to other people, simply because you "don't practice" the religion of Christmas (as you seem to denote the only people who celebrate it are Christians)
I again have no idea why you've written that I am against Bush or anyone for that matter expressing their personal religious beliefs, for I am not. What I wrote and I guess what you misunderstood was that if Bush uses his bully pulpit to preach to America he should naturally expect opposition to what he's saying, be it political or religious. You misunderstood my post.debate_junkie said:I could care less about Bush and his pandering to the Religious Right. They're all a bunch of lunatics, in my opinion. You don't like it, elect a Jewish president. Elect a Muslim president. But how dare you insist that someone NOT be able to express their faith, even if they are the leader of the free world. The Constitution does NOT go away simply because he is president (OMG did I just stick up for the man? Someone quick, feel my head, I think I'm delirious)
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document in the USA, it has nothing at all to do with the law. It is a sacred document, but not a legal one, it carries no weight at all.debate_junkie said:And if "religion" if you will, doesn't belong in government, I guess the Constitution of the United States, and the Declaration of Independence should be disqualified, as well as US currency, if I'm reading your logic correctly.
debate_junkie said:Christmas Music Banned at...Christmas Concert
Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today on the decision by Florida Gulf Coast University (FGCU) to ban Christmas music from this year’s Christmas concert:
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7027
debate_junkie said:Another school
censoring Christmas?
Teachers reportedly prohibited from wearing pins, using C-word
Teachers at a Georgia elementary school reportedly were told to nix any religious pins and refrain from referring to a party as a "Christmas" party, while the local district has censored certain religious Christmas songs from its "winter" program.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=47640
debate_junkie said:Boston "holiday tree" stirs controversy
BOSTON (Reuters) - Boston set off a furor this week when it officially renamed a giant tree erected in a city park a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051125/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg-
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1356566 said:…Douglas Laycock, a constitutional law professor at the University of Texas at Austin. "This is a publicity trick,” he said. “And it’s a fundraising tool.”
Befuddled_Stoner said:Nowhere in this article does it say which songs they aren’t allowed to sing. If they want to sing songs like “jingle bells” and “Rudolph,” which aren’t overtly Christian, I can understand their grievance. But if they want to sings songs like “Jebus, Jebus, Jebus” or “Christ almighty: you the God for me” than I say **** ‘em, that **** is offensive. How would they feel if I were to go around caroling with songs they find offensive? How about some nice festive Eminem?
Poor christians just can’t get over the idea that bringing the religious aspects of their holidays into the classroom violates the separation of church from state. Can’t display nativity scenes or sing praises to your God in school sponsored events? Oh, no….. Jebus must be spinning in his grave.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and this will give Falwell an aneurism. I personally have nothing against the term ‘christmas tree,’ but I don’t see how calling it a ‘holiday tree’ makes one whit of difference. It’s a tree that’s displayed for the holidays. Sheesh, it’s not like they’re to call it “Satan’s Spruce” or something like that.
Couldn't agree more.
Merry Christmas does not offend me at all, but I know plenty of Jews that do take offense to it in that it makes them feel a form of segregation or it makes them feel like a minority rather than part of the whole.debate_junkie said:And Champs, since I just woke up I'll give you the long and short of it. I was raised outside of Philadelphia, and for most of my young life, my great aunt and uncle lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. We would be gently reminded that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and after feeling 2 inches small for a matter of seconds, would respond with a quick Happy Hanukkah. I come from a place where tolerance was the norm(once it was established their belief systems were different), and where people didn't get offended. It seems trivial to me... the operative words being.. TO ME... to get offended over the words Merry Christmas, and Christmas, especially when there are bigger things to worry about. It appears small to me, and I usually never sweat the small stuff. So if it is a big deal to you, my apologies. We'll just agree to disagree.
26 X World Champs said:Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!
Give me a break! Stop you're whining! I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one. Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity.
Boo hoo hoo....poor subjugated American Christians!
And they are, absolutely, just not in events or institutions sponsored by or owned by the government.Stu Ghatze said:The truth IS that NOBODY should be offended by anybody's own particular religous beliefs because of political correctness, or the celebrations of them as ALL people are FREE to express their OWN beliefs.
Exactly the reason why government should always have no opinion in religious matters, large or small. I think the government needs to be 100% neutral 100% of the time.Stu Ghatze said:All religions should be respected & tollerated in America, not punished just because one is larger or smaller than the other.
This is the crux of what I consider to be the public whining of certain Christians and Christian rights groups. Everywhere you look in December you see and hear Christmas. To think otherwise is what I consider to be the whine or spoiled child factor, you know the kid, the one no matter how much they have always want more and will cry and cry until he gets his way.Stu Ghatze said:WHY should Christianity, & its holiday's, or sayings be censured because it happens to be the largest religion base in America??
Nothing is being censored IMHO, this is a mis-statement. Allowing Christian (or any prayers or any religious songs) in the public square is unconstitutional, period. Majority has absolutely nothing to do with it, nada, zero, zilch.Stu Ghatze said:Seems as if certain politically correct whackos think that by censuring the MAJORITIES religous words & beliefs, & limiting their celebrations, or their religious displays will help create this so called, FICTIONAL right of a "level playing field" mentality!
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