The war on Christmas

[tecoyah]

I am so very Glad I choose to be Pagan. Truth be told this entire Holiday is based on Solstice and Yule....it is well documented. We celebrate these Holidays in my home, we also have a Christmas tree, Stockings for St. Nicholas day. Lights on the house, Snowmen and Santas all over the place. We will go to Gramma house on Xmas day to let them be with the Kids, and open presents. I no longer wish people a happy Yule because of the negative attitude recieved from Christians (who took offense, Talk about Ironic)....so Merry Christmas is fine with me.
The point is.....If I, as a Practicing Pagan, dont really care what you call it.....why should anyone else. Just enjoy the time, and eat the Freakin' Cookies.

 

[JOHNYJ]

In this fight the extremists and intolerant are the anti-Christmas forces.Proved by simple logic.What holiday
is the 25th of December, By Act Of congress it is Christmas day! a Federal holiday .Not holiday, day, not winter day, its Christmas Day !
A spruce tree with lights and ornaments is a Christmas Tree,not a holiday tree.
All those people in all those stores aren't there because its winter,or snowing.There, there to buy stuff because its Christmas ! Some here can't even stand to say CHRIST-MAS ! they use Xmas
. Thanksgiving a native American holiday
in many schools its celebrated,but. The kids don't know why the pilgrims came to America,were they out for a ride,wha?.Because, to discuss why. Might involve mentioning Religion or even God ! so, who are the intolerant in this,is obvious and it isnt the Christians.

 

[BWG]

I'm going to continue to do what I've been doing most of my life, but some aren't going to be satisfied until they get things completely their way.




Christmas Controversy in Sapulpa
Posted: 12/2/2005 9:30:05 PM

Some churchgoers are accusing the Chamber of Commerce of taking Christ out of the town’s Christmas parade. Some churches are putting their own floats in the parade, to get their point across. The name of the parade now is the Winterfest Christmas parade, but some churches say that Christ should be the focus of the season, not winter. The Chamber says it has received dozens of letters and emails from people upset with Christmas being left out of the parade’s title. But the Chamber says the full name of the parade is actually The Sapulpa Chamber Winterfest Christmas Parade. The parade has had the same name for five years, and the Chamber says it has never received any complaints in the past. The Chamber says no one has ever requested that Christmas be removed from the parade’s title or theme. As of now, there are no plans to change the parade’s name.


Link Here

 

[t125eagle]

another thought...
my grandma said that when she was in school, you could pray in a group if you wanted to. Different groups meant different demoninations or religions and everyone got along. why not have that now? if you are Jewish, group with Jewish friends. If you are Muslim, group with muslim friends. if you are athiest, go group with other athiest. each group can pray, except for the athiest, and they can do what they like. its just a thought.

 

[Stu Ghatze]

another thought...
my grandma said that when she was in school, you could pray in a group if you wanted to. Different groups meant different demoninations or religions and everyone got along. why not have that now? if you are Jewish, group with Jewish friends. If you are Muslim, group with muslim friends. if you are athiest, go group with other athiest. each group can pray, except for the athiest, and they can do what they like. its just a thought.

I agree completely, ..& THAT is HOW things USED to be when COMMON SENSE used to rule, ..& NOT the politically correct police!

 

[t125eagle]

i think things would be better around the world if people used this common sense that we used to have. i think that left. lol.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Nowhere in this article does it say which songs they aren’t allowed to sing. If they want to sing songs like “jingle bells” and “Rudolph,” which aren’t overtly Christian, I can understand their grievance. But if they want to sings songs like “Jebus, Jebus, Jebus” or “Christ almighty: you the God for me” than I say **** ‘em, that **** is offensive. How would they feel if I were to go around caroling with songs they find offensive? How about some nice festive Eminem?



Poor christians just can’t get over the idea that bringing the religious aspects of their holidays into the classroom violates the separation of church from state. Can’t display nativity scenes or sing praises to your God in school sponsored events? Oh, no….. Jebus must be spinning in his grave.



Maybe we’ll get lucky and this will give Falwell an aneurism. I personally have nothing against the term ‘christmas tree,’ but I don’t see how calling it a ‘holiday tree’ makes one whit of difference. It’s a tree that’s displayed for the holidays. Sheesh, it’s not like they’re to call it “Satan’s Spruce” or something like that.



Couldn't agree more.

I agree with you 100% I teach at a school with a 20% Jewish population and 10% Muslim. For us to even have a "Christmas Concert" is an insult to 30% of the student body.

 

[26 X World Champs]

I agree with you 100% I teach at a school with a 20% Jewish population and 10% Muslim. For us to even have a "Christmas Concert" is an insult to 30% of the student body.

Exactly! It's too bad that the Christians who are now doing the "woe is me" talking points aren't confident enough in their own religion. Wouldn't you think that if you had an 80%+ majority somewhere you would stop whining about "the war on Christmas"?

You know what it's like? I love the Yankees, right? The Yankees have resources to make the playoffs, at the very least virtually every year. How shallow or callous would it be if I or an organized group of Yankees' fans complained that the Yankees do not spend enough money on players and that other teams now have a better chance of getting their annual playoff spot. You see what I mean? Wouldn't you tell me to "stop you're whining" if I started a thread entitled "The War on the NY Yankees"?

 

[tryreading]

JustMyPOV[/B]]
For what reason cannot a comprimise be reached on this issue? What exactly is wrong with simply providing a moment of silent meditation, during which time the kids may opt to pray or opt not to?

Why can't songs of varying cultures religious or non-religious be sung by school-kids?

Just give kids the choice. Let them decide what they find offensive and if they opt not to participate in a particular song or celebration, they should be lauded for exercising their freedom.

You say its okay to provide a moment of silence. It is not. The providing of it by the state is the problem. But the student(s) can provide for themselves a moment for meditation, it is legal and Constitutional. They can do this at will. They can pray if they want to. It is not banned.

A religious song can be sung in school, say at a talent show, if the student wants to sing one, and the religious song is not selected/conducted/led by the school teacher/administrator. If the student picks a song on his own and learns it without input from the state, he can sing it at a function in school. It is a misconception that this is illegal. Some schools have mistakenly barred kids from singing religious songs, like the 'Awesome God' case in New Jersey, because the admin people assume the act is illegal and don't want trouble, but they are wrong to do so. It is not illegal. A student can sing a song he likes in school even if God is the subject of it.

 

[tryreading]

All religions should be respected & tollerated in America, not punished just because one is larger or smaller than the other.

WHY should Christianity, & its holiday's, or sayings be censured because it happens to be the largest religion base in America??

Seems as if certain politically correct whackos think that by censuring the MAJORITIES religous words & beliefs, & limiting their celebrations, or their religious displays will help create this so called, FICTIONAL right of a "level playing field" mentality!

This is WHY we need good responsible judges on the supreme court...to end this invented mirage of "seeing whatever one wants to within the constitution", ...to end this lunacy!

You are not being punished by anybody, you may have a persecution complex.

Christianity is not censured. It is everywhere. The only restriction on it, and on all other religions, is that they can't be endorsed by the state. Your religion is not separated from state because Christians are the majority, but because it is Constitutionally mandated.

Your celebrations are not limited. They are everywhere. If Target or any other company refuses to use Merry Christmas in their advertisements, a business decision was made to do so, like galenrox said below. They did nothing illegal. Boycott them if you choose, if you have a problem with their policy.

The Supreme Court justices should not be cherry picked to insure a group that they will get their way. President Bush says it is wrong to appoint activist judges.

 

[doughgirl]

Church and state means that the government will not adopt ONE denomination as the state religion. In England the Anglican Church is the official religion. But in America there is no such denomination.The Christian faith is practiced by the majortiy of people in America.

Religious expression is permitted in the United States. The first amendment expressly protects that though atheists have twisted the interpretation of that amendment to say just the opposite. I believe the signers certainly would have agreed that the “wall of separation” was to prevent one Christian denomination from dominating, and was never intended to be a wedge between the government and Christianity.

Schools are being forced legally to support an atheist view of the world, since no form of religious expression is any longer acceptable to a religious or non-religious minority. MINORITY. Everyone is entitled to the free exercise of religion without government intervention that might aid or hinder the individual's right to freely exercise his or her own personal religious beliefs. This is the reason why the First Amendment exists, to protect our religious rights. I can't stand Clinton but he even said,once in his weekly radio address.... " I have never believed the Constitution required our schools to be religion-free zones, or that our children must check their faith at the schoolhouse door.'' (Washington: Reuters 18 December 1999 "Religion Has Place in Public Schools")

No school has the right to tell a child they can't read the Bible, pray to God, hand out Christmas cards........wear red and green, or sing CHRISTMAS songs or even bring in religious items for show and tell.


They can do whatever they want to stop Christians from celebrating Christmas,,,, but nothing that they do can destroy the miraculous gift of God's mercy who came to the earth as Our Savior.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

It's their right to not have to say Christmas, or whatever, but who cares? It's so trivial that they come off as whinny cry babies.

My official opinion: Whatever.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Church and state means that the government will not adopt ONE denomination as the state religion. In England the Anglican Church is the official religion. But in America there is no such denomination.The Christian faith is practiced by the majortiy of people in America.

Religious expression is permitted in the United States. The first amendment expressly protects that though atheists have twisted the interpretation of that amendment to say just the opposite. I believe the signers certainly would have agreed that the “wall of separation” was to prevent one Christian denomination from dominating, and was never intended to be a wedge between the government and Christianity.

Schools are being forced legally to support an atheist view of the world, since no form of religious expression is any longer acceptable to a religious or non-religious minority. MINORITY. Everyone is entitled to the free exercise of religion without government intervention that might aid or hinder the individual's right to freely exercise his or her own personal religious beliefs. This is the reason why the First Amendment exists, to protect our religious rights. I can't stand Clinton but he even said,once in his weekly radio address.... " I have never believed the Constitution required our schools to be religion-free zones, or that our children must check their faith at the schoolhouse door.'' (Washington: Reuters 18 December 1999 "Religion Has Place in Public Schools")

No school has the right to tell a child they can't read the Bible, pray to God, hand out Christmas cards........wear red and green, or sing CHRISTMAS songs or even bring in religious items for show and tell.


They can do whatever they want to stop Christians from celebrating Christmas,,,, but nothing that they do can destroy the miraculous gift of God's mercy who came to the earth as Our Savior.

How are American schools teaching Atheism? Atheism is the believe in no god(s). Secularism, allows the belief in religion, except that governmentsmust not endorse any religion or create law based on religious views..

So it seems that secularism is being pushed in American schools not atheism.

There is a clear distinction.

Lastly I see religion as a deeply personal thing, whether you believe in god(s) or not. So why is it that Christians are demanding in the U.S and in Australia, that Christianity be rammed down people's throats?

But.....

As for the whole Christmas tree, holiday tree thing. Its a bloody tree. I'm an atheist and I don't have a problem with a Christmas tree. That's what it is. What the hell is a Holiday tree?

 

[tryreading]

Religious expression is permitted in the United States. The first amendment expressly protects that though atheists have twisted the interpretation of that amendment to say just the opposite. I believe the signers certainly would have agreed that the “wall of separation” was to prevent one Christian denomination from dominating, and was never intended to be a wedge between the government and Christianity. .

Religious expression is protected here.

The Constitution only deals with Christianity? You say it prevents one Christian denomination from dominating... I think it prevents all religions from dominating.

Schools are being forced legally to support an atheist view of the world, since no form of religious expression is any longer acceptable to a religious or non-religious minority. MINORITY. Everyone is entitled to the free exercise of religion without government intervention that might aid or hinder the individual's right to freely exercise his or her own personal religious beliefs. This is the reason why the First Amendment exists, to protect our religious rights. I can't stand Clinton but he even said,once in his weekly radio address.... " I have never believed the Constitution required our schools to be religion-free zones, or that our children must check their faith at the schoolhouse door.'' (Washington: Reuters 18 December 1999 "Religion Has Place in Public Schools")

Now it gets confused. Schools certainly do not support an athiest view if they are neutral. They support no view.

Minority doesn't matter.

The individual does, in this country, have the right to freely exercise his religion.

Children do not have to leave their faith outside the school. What are you talking about? The child is just as religious in school or out, and can worship his God there. But the school itself can't lead prayer or promote religion.

No school has the right to tell a child they can't read the Bible, pray to God, hand out Christmas cards........wear red and green, or sing CHRISTMAS songs or even bring in religious items for show and tell..

No school tells a child this. If you know of one that does, sue them, because they're wrong They can read the Bible and pray if they want to, as long as they don't disrupt classes.

They can do whatever they want to stop Christians from celebrating Christmas,,,, but nothing that they do can destroy the miraculous gift of God's mercy who came to the earth as Our Savior.

Please. Why do you feel so persecuted? Celebrate all you want. If you don't think you can celebrate Christmas, you have developed some type of complex. Go outside and scream The Lord's Prayer to the heavens, and maybe you'll feel better.

 

[JOHNYJ]

JustMyPOV[/B]]
For what reason cannot a comprimise be reached on this issue? What exactly is wrong with simply providing a moment of silent meditation, during which time the kids may opt to pray or opt not to?

Why can't songs of varying cultures religious or non-religious be sung by school-kids?

Just give kids the choice. Let them decide what they find offensive and if they opt not to participate in a particular song or celebration, they should be lauded for exercising their freedom.

You say its okay to provide a moment of silence. It is not. The providing of it by the state is the problem. But the student(s) can provide for themselves a moment for meditation, it is legal and Constitutional. They can do this at will. They can pray if they want to. It is not banned.

A religious song can be sung in school, say at a talent show, if the student wants to sing one, and the religious song is not selected/conducted/led by the school teacher/administrator. If the student picks a song on his own and learns it without input from the state, he can sing it at a function in school. It is a misconception that this is illegal. Some schools have mistakenly barred kids from singing religious songs, like the 'Awesome God' case in New Jersey, because the admin people assume the act is illegal and don't want trouble, but they are wrong to do so. It is not illegal. A student can sing a song he likes in school even if God is the subject of it.

The moment of silence idea is a good example of who is intolerant and fanatical. Christians don't require that a moment of silence be used for prayer. Many school administrators like the idea because it helps calm down the students. So they can procede orderly to their first class.Its the ACLU that objects becasue,someone might use the moment to, pray !

 

[doughgirl]

"Christianity be rammed down people's throats?"

Please tell me how Christianity is rammed down your throats?

We are not even a Christian nation anymore. We used to be but we are not today. We are a secular nation. Most people today even those claiming to be Christians say there are no moral absolutes.

I believe the culture we live in today is lost. We are made up of iconoclastic scholars and opinionmakers who are percieved as saviors who have changed society as we use to know and have remade culture in THEIR OWN IMAGE.

They have done this mainly through education; our schools and universities.
The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society. And the liberal, secular side controls schools today. This is where children are brainwashed to accept or reject certain ideals. And those being rejected today are godly views. Today morals have no place in schools because there is no absolute morality. That is what the left says. And the secular side doesnt want any mention of God or that worldview talked about. Denying God leaves man free to abolish the past and decree the future....a pagan future.
Look at us. We have become one of the most violent and drugged nations on earth.

 

[hipsterdufus]

i think things would be better around the world if people used this common sense that we used to have. i think that left. lol.

Agreed.

The term "Happy Holidays" is inclusive to most people this time of year. That's why the clerk at Wal-mart should say that, rather than assuming the entire world celebrates Christmas.

It's just common sense.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Please tell me how having a Christmas tree, or a Christmas party is bringing religious symbols into the schools? Last time I checked... tree's and party's are secular celebration's of the holiday, or am I just misguided.

uhh - do you see any word in Christmas tree or Christmas party that might have a Christian connotation? :doh

 

[tryreading]

The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society.

Ever hear of parents, and parenting? Not a new concept.

And the liberal, secular side controls schools today.

This is paranoia.

This is where children are brainwashed to accept or reject certain ideals. And those being rejected today are godly views.

Can't teach God in schools.

Today morals have no place in schools because there is no absolute morality. That is what the left says.

Morals exist in schools. Can't teach God though.

And the secular side doesnt want any mention of God or that worldview talked about.

Who cares what the secular want. A kid can say God in school, he can pray, he can be religious. The school can't promote that though, it can't preach or lead prayer. And why would you want to push religion in schools, to a captive audience? It shouldn't be forced on anyone, but sought voluntarily.

Look at us. We have become one of the most violent and drugged nations on earth.

Please prove this.

 

[tryreading]

uhh - do you see any word in Christmas tree or Christmas party that might have a Christian connotation? :doh

Funny, and true. There is a blindness involved in this debate.

 

[26 X World Champs]

They have done this mainly through education; our schools and universities. The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society. And the liberal, secular side controls schools today. This is where children are brainwashed to accept or reject certain ideals.

Wow! I'm taken aback by this paragraph. You really wrote that schools and universities are brainwashing children away from God?

What does that say about these children's parents? What does it say about elected officials? Teachers? All conspiring to defeat Christianity? Wow!

I wrote several times in this thread that there are certain believers of the Christian faith who must have it all, religion everywhere, and anything less than everywhere is an attack or war against Christianity. This type of thinking is extremely radical in my mind, way, way, way out there.

It's sad to me that there are people who really believe that the world is out to destroy Christianity in the USA, especially considering that 85% of the USA is supposed to be Christian. As a Jew, or a non-christian this thinking is disturbing to me as I am being told that I'm not equal to you because I'm not Christian, rather I am brainwashing the children of America simply by being secular.

Scary stuff being secular, eh?

 

[tryreading]

The moment of silence idea is a good example of who is intolerant and fanatical. Christians don't require that a moment of silence be used for prayer. Many school administrators like the idea because it helps calm down the students. So they can procede orderly to their first class.Its the ACLU that objects becasue,someone might use the moment to, pray !

The moment of silence idea is promoted by religious people for religious reasons. You know that. If you are saying its not I don't think you are being honest.

If the teacher wants quiet in the classroom, a firm SHUDDUP! should do it.

 

[26 X World Champs]

The moment of silence idea is promoted by religious people for religious reasons. You know that. If you are saying its not I don't think you are being honest.

If the teacher wants quiet in the classroom, a firm SHUDDUP! should do it.

I agree! For example if a teacher asks his class to observe a moment of silence to reflect on the victims of 9-11 that cannot be considered religious or a violation of anything.

However, if this same teacher asks his class for a moment of silence to pray to your higher power or simply reflect on yourself if you do not believe in a higher power this is very wrong and he would be segregating his class etc.

 

[tryreading]

Scary stuff being secular, eh?

Alas, I'm scared too, we are so persecuted. To deal with the unfairness, I'm going to take a moment of silence, might go make a cocktail.

 

[Dogger807]

They have done this mainly through education; our schools and universities.
The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society. And the liberal, secular side controls schools today. This is where children are brainwashed to accept or reject certain ideals. And those being rejected today are godly views. Today morals have no place in schools because there is no absolute morality. That is what the left says. And the secular side doesnt want any mention of God or that worldview talked about. Denying God leaves man free to abolish the past and decree the future....a pagan future.
Look at us. We have become one of the most violent and drugged nations on earth.

Actually a recent study shows the US as one of the most religious in the world and shows a direct coalition between higher religious levels and greater social ills.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Of course that's not gonna stop you from blaming all perceived ills on secularism.

The real irony of this whole thread is the fact that Xmas was originally a ploy by early christians to win converts away from the pagans and their winter holidays. It's also not chance that easter falls right around summer solice. The easter bunny is a pagan figure after all.

In a nutshell the whole war on Christmas idea is nothing more than the bully complaining that the dog bit him after being kicked repeatedly. :wow: