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The war on Christmas

JOHNYJ

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For the last couple of years of because of greed
or liberal anti christian Bias.The major department stores in the USA have not been using the word " CHRISTMAS '.They use Holiday,winter anything,but CHRISTMAS. They like all those Christians buying in their stores they just dont respect them. The back lash has begun, this year fueled by the Fox TV network .Christians are complaining and where possible boycotting those that don't respect them.
Holiday Trees are back to being Christmas Trees, MerryChristmas signs are up. There are still some like Sears Roebuck and others that continue to push their PC/money hungry ways but they are being criticised and don't like it.
The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other. In m own area High schools dont allowe any Christmas music that is religious .So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells isin.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back.
 

26 X World Champs

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JOHNYJ said:
For the last couple of years of because of greed
or liberal anti christian Bias.The major department stores in the USA have not been using the word " CHRISTMAS '.They use Holiday,winter anything,but CHRISTMAS. They like all those Christians buying in their stores they just dont respect them. The back lash has begun, this year fueled by the Fox TV network .Christians are complaining and where possible boycotting those that don't respect them.
Holiday Trees are back to being Christmas Trees, MerryChristmas signs are up. There are still some like Sears Roebuck and others that continue to push their PC/money hungry ways but they are being criticised and don't like it.
The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other. In m own area High schools dont allowe any Christmas music that is religious .So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells isin.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back.
Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!

Give me a break! Stop you're whining! I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one. Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity.

Boo hoo hoo....poor subjugated American Christians!
 

doughgirl

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26 x World Champs says,"Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!"

And you are RIGHT !!!!!!!! About the evil liberals that is. There is a movement that is trying to criminalize Christianity. And its working. Read this book if you do not believe me, "The Criminalization of Chrisianity," Janet Folger.

"I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one."

And who is whining now?

"Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity."

You have no idea what is going on in this nation regarding Christianity do you?

JOhnny is absolutely right when he said, "The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other. In m own area High schools dont allow any Christmas music that is religious . So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells is in.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back."

It is not Christian paranoia its the secular one that can't abide Christians at all. They are like a vampire who is afraid of the light. They don't want Christmas hushed up........they want it totally gone, illiminated, exterminated.
 

debate_junkie

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26 X World Champs said:
Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!

Give me a break! Stop you're whining! I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one. Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity.

Boo hoo hoo....poor subjugated American Christians!
Without all the whining, some good points were made. I'm not Christian, so I could care less. However, I do find it a little nuts, that even in the Christmas holiday, the words Merry Christmas are offensive. In an effort to be all-inclusive, there IS an assult on the traditional celebration of Christmas... and my belief is this. It's all or nothing. Do I want to see Nativity scenes everywhere? hmmm whatever floats your boat, right? However, the words Merry Christmas offensive? I DON'T get that and I wish someone would give me a plausible reason other than it excludes Jews, or those celebrating Kwannzah, because in all actuality, the differences are PURELY religious.

You may not celebrate Christmas, but should the rest of the world stop? Your belief is your belief... should we all celebrate Hanukkah? or Kwaanza? I think there HAS to come a point where we stop wanting it one way.. or the highway!
 

doughgirl

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26XWorldchamps..........

These are just a few examples taken from that book.
They are documented and fact.

In Texas, 1995 Samuel Kent a federal judge told American students if they prayed in the name of JESUS, they would be sentenced to a 6 month jail term. (Worldnetdaily, 2001 "Santa is Appalled)

Judge Ira DeMent on October 30, 1997 tried to issue that a monitor who would roam the halls of high schools to listen in on conversations to make sure no one was praying. Prayer police? This was tried but overruled.

In Omaha Nebraska a student was prohibited from reading his bible silently during free time or even to open his bible at school. (Gierke v Blotzer)

It is unconstitutional for a school library to contain books that deal with Christianity or for a teacher to be seen with a personal copy of the bible at school (Roberts v Madigan, 1960)

In Maryland schools you can’t hand out Christmas cards to friends.
Red Poinsettias were banned from the Ramsey Court House in St Paul Minn because they offended a person who believes the flowers are a symbol of Christianity.
In Worthington Ohio, Students were prohibited from bringing in Christmas cookies with the colors red and green or in the shapes of bells or stars. Tolerance?????
It’s unconstitutional for a public cemetery to have a planter in the shape of a cross, that it might cause emotional damage to an unbeliever. (Warsaw v Tehachapi, 1990)

There are hundreds of examples of laws being changed against the Christian.

And who is tolerant?
 

26 X World Champs

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debate_junkie said:
You may not celebrate Christmas, but should the rest of the world stop? Your belief is your belief... should we all celebrate Hanukkah? or Kwaanza? I think there HAS to come a point where we stop wanting it one way.. or the highway!
Not my point, allow me to clarify? Merry Christmas is OK with me. Nativity scenes on government property are not OK. Christmas songs in school? Sure, so long as there are songs from other faiths too. Is that fair?

What irks me is when someone write stuff like kids aren't allowed to wear red and green to school or say "Merry Christmas" in school but there's no proof of that at all, no links, just what appears to be made up whining.

The whining is irritating. I seem to recall that Bush lit the national Christmas Tree the other day, is that not enough proof that Christianity is not under full frontal assault?

The question to those who protest the changes to Christmas is what changes are acceptable? What should be done to make it all-inclusive? Please be specific as to what you would do to make everyone happy, not just the Christians who feel so attacked.
 

26 X World Champs

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doughgirl said:
26XWorldchamps..........

These are just a few examples taken from that book.
They are documented and fact.

In Texas, 1995 Samuel Kent a federal judge told American students if they prayed in the name of JESUS, they would be sentenced to a 6 month jail term. (Worldnetdaily, 2001 "Santa is Appalled)

Judge Ira DeMent on October 30, 1997 tried to issue that a monitor who would roam the halls of high schools to listen in on conversations to make sure no one was praying. Prayer police? This was tried but overruled.

In Omaha Nebraska a student was prohibited from reading his bible silently during free time or even to open his bible at school. (Gierke v Blotzer)

It is unconstitutional for a school library to contain books that deal with Christianity or for a teacher to be seen with a personal copy of the bible at school (Roberts v Madigan, 1960)

In Maryland schools you can’t hand out Christmas cards to friends.
Red Poinsettias were banned from the Ramsey Court House in St Paul Minn because they offended a person who believes the flowers are a symbol of Christianity.
In Worthington Ohio, Students were prohibited from bringing in Christmas cookies with the colors red and green or in the shapes of bells or stars. Tolerance?????
It’s unconstitutional for a public cemetery to have a planter in the shape of a cross, that it might cause emotional damage to an unbeliever. (Warsaw v Tehachapi, 1990)

There are hundreds of examples of laws being changed against the Christian.

And who is tolerant?
Please! The whining is ringing through the Internet. All of those "examples" are undocumented and in some instances 45 years old. None are from 2005, 2004, 2003? How come?

You even posted some examples where rulings were in FAVOR or religious freedom?

I really felt reading your examples that virtually each and every one of them were the exact pettiness that I find distasteful.

How come you don't mention the zillions of TV ads for Xmas, print ads, radio ads, the absolute availability of anything Xmas in every part of America. The thousands of public Xmas trees displayed, the TV specials about Xmas etc.?

You chose to list some petty nonsense that in my opinion in no way has diminished Xmas.

The Constitution is quite clear on these things, no religious displays by the government, state, local or federal. Are you against the constitution or just against the parts that you disagree with? Is that cake and eat it too?
 

FinnMacCool

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For the last couple of years of because of greed
or liberal anti christian Bias.The major department stores in the USA have not been using the word " CHRISTMAS '.They use Holiday,winter anything,but CHRISTMAS.
Oh not because theres Haunakah along with chirstmas? And why should that bother you?
They like all those Christians buying in their stores they just dont respect them.
So what are you gonna do about it?
The back lash has begun, this year fueled by the Fox TV network .Christians are complaining and where possible boycotting those that don't respect them.
I wouldn't expect anything less
Holiday Trees are back to being Christmas Trees,
I've always remembered them being called christmas trees.
MerryChristmas signs are up.
They're up at my neighbors every year
There are still some like Sears Roebuck and others that continue to push their PC/money hungry ways but they are being criticised and don't like it.
The liberal/pc people still win in many places in some places children cant wear red & green colors becasue they are Christmas colors,they can't say merry Christmas to each other.
Where?
In m own area High schools dont allowe any Christmas music that is religious .So Handle's Messiah is out and jingle bells isin.The fight does go on and Christians are fighting back.
I don't think I believe you. Maybe people just like jingle bells better?
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Not my point, allow me to clarify? Merry Christmas is OK with me. Nativity scenes on government property are not OK. Christmas songs in school? Sure, so long as there are songs from other faiths too. Is that fair?

What irks me is when someone write stuff like kids aren't allowed to wear red and green to school or say "Merry Christmas" in school but there's no proof of that at all, no links, just what appears to be made up whining.

The whining is irritating. I seem to recall that Bush lit the national Christmas Tree the other day, is that not enough proof that Christianity is not under full frontal assault?

The question to those who protest the changes to Christmas is what changes are acceptable? What should be done to make it all-inclusive? Please be specific as to what you would do to make everyone happy, not just the Christians who feel so attacked.

Christmas Music Banned at...Christmas Concert

Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today on the decision by Florida Gulf Coast University (FGCU) to ban Christmas music from this year’s Christmas concert:

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7027


Another school
censoring Christmas?
Teachers reportedly prohibited from wearing pins, using C-word

Teachers at a Georgia elementary school reportedly were told to nix any religious pins and refrain from referring to a party as a "Christmas" party, while the local district has censored certain religious Christmas songs from its "winter" program.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47640


Boston "holiday tree" stirs controversy

BOSTON (Reuters) - Boston set off a furor this week when it officially renamed a giant tree erected in a city park a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051125...iv1ujSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-

(remind me not to search yahoo anymore for links... they're just too dang long)

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1356566

So Champs.. there are a few examples... mostly from this year about the assult on Christmas... carols in schools, trees being renamed "holiday" trees. If I were to paste anymore, you'd be reading for the next week.

Christmas tree's are Christmas trees. Christmas carols are Christmas carols. Whatever happened to opting out of something because it didn't fit in with one's belief systems, much like a judge recuses himself from a case because of conflicts of interest?

I still don't see the relativity of inclusiveness, and yet the removal of anything Christmas in the public forum. That to me isn't inclusive, it's pandering... to those that scream the loudest.
 

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RE : 26X world champs # 2
Every year in NYC prospect park they set up a Menorah the size of a shed. If a christian out fit put up a nativity scene the size of a bread box in a public park the ACLU would go nuts.
I grew up in a jewish neighorhood sang Hanukkah songs in public school. Never saw a chistian kid through a fit because of it. On stage there was usualy a Christmas tree and a Menorah. Never saw a kid have a problem with being told Happy
Hannukah or Merry Christmas.
If any kid or adult has a problem with seeing a nativity scene. They should realy seek help.
Also your love of accuracy.The United States Constitution only forbids the establishment of a state religion or the interference with the free practice of any religion. It is an ' interpretation ' by the Supreme court that has caused all this BS. with the division between church and state.
 

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i think its sad. the united states were founded on so many good christian principles and its all going down the drain. so many atheist have made such a fuss and now its harder to be a christian than ever before in this country. i've read in several books, the Beatles Anthology included, that when John Lennon made a certain comment the country went nuts. of course he was misquoted. he was talking to a reporter in england saying that people are not going to church as they should and they way things were going, "christianity will go. it will wither away and die. the Beatles will be around longer than Jesus". the " " part is the part that the american press heard and the bealtes songs were banded from a lot of radio stations, records were burned. it was madness. now, people are argueing over what to call a christmas tree! for petes sake! i think we should still have prayer in school instead of a moment of silence. if you are agnostic or aethist, you dont have to pray. if you are jewish, pray to god. i shall not print his name because i know what it means. if you are muslim, pray to allah. its that simple in my opinion.
 

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t125eagle said:
i think its sad. the united states were founded on so many good christian principles and its all going down the drain. so many atheist have made such a fuss and now its harder to be a christian than ever before in this country.
And why is that? What can't you do anymore that makes it so hard to be a Christian? Do you think athiests have different principles than Christians? How about Jews or Muslims? Do they have different principles too?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how Christians are being treated unequally when there are churches every couple of blocks that don't pay taxes and where there are dozens if not hundreds of weekly shows on TV that are all about being Christian. Do you see any Jewish or Muslim TV shows?
t125eagle said:
i think we should still have prayer in school instead of a moment of silence. if you are agnostic or aethist, you dont have to pray. if you are jewish, pray to god. i shall not print his name because i know what it means. if you are muslim, pray to allah. its that simple in my opinion.
Why should there be prayers outloud in school? It's been determined to be unconstitutional not to mention that anyone can pray anywhere they want at anytime. You might have to do it silently at times, but you can always pray, no one will ever stop you.

I find it interesting when people say that non-religious people over react to religion, especially if it spills over to where non-religious people are "blamed" for societies problems!

Government must be areligious, always, and for some reason this really bothers some Americans who want government to choose a religion that in effect would exclude part of the population.

Religious freedom is everywhere in the USA.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
And why is that? What can't you do anymore that makes it so hard to be a Christian? Do you think athiests have different principles than Christians? How about Jews or Muslims? Do they have different principles too?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how Christians are being treated unequally when there are churches every couple of blocks that don't pay taxes and where there are dozens if not hundreds of weekly shows on TV that are all about being Christian. Do you see any Jewish or Muslim TV shows?

Why should there be prayers outloud in school? It's been determined to be unconstitutional not to mention that anyone can pray anywhere they want at anytime. You might have to do it silently at times, but you can always pray, no one will ever stop you.

I find it interesting when people say that non-religious people over react to religion, especially if it spills over to where non-religious people are "blamed" for societies problems!

Government must be areligious, always, and for some reason this really bothers some Americans who want government to choose a religion that in effect would exclude part of the population.

Religious freedom is everywhere in the USA.
But you HAVE to admit, it's suspect when people are being told that the word Christmas cannot be used to identify a tree, or a party, right?

ALL houses of worship, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim are tax exempt in the United States of America. So that is a moot point, Champs, and I think you even know that.

As far as prayer... praying outloud isn't necessary to achieve the desired result, so we agree there.

Government is trying to be areligious, and in doing so is being exclusionary to the Christian holiday of Christmas. Schools are a government entity, right? Schools are banning christmas carols, and even the word being used in school, right? So aren't they deciding religion for that particular school?
 

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debate_junkie said:
But you HAVE to admit, it's suspect when people are being told that the word Christmas cannot be used to identify a tree, or a party, right?
Xmas is everywhere you turn, and identified as Xmas. How many Xmas specials are there on TV in December? C'mon, to me it's like a spoiled child the day after Halloween complaining that his parents won't let him eat candy.
debate_junkie said:
ALL houses of worship, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim are tax exempt in the United States of America. So that is a moot point, Champs, and I think you even know that.
I agree. I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is that government gives tons of special privileges to religion. In theory Christians are not complaining about Christianity not being allowed in government, they're complaining about religion not being permitted. Which, BTW, is why HAPPY HOLIDAYS works in public so well. As a Jew it feels a bit odd when someone who doesn't know me assumes I'm Christian and wishes me Merry Christmas. I still appreciate the thought, but I would appreciate the person and respect them more for saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS.
debate_junkie said:
Government is trying to be areligious, and in doing so is being exclusionary to the Christian holiday of Christmas. Schools are a government entity, right? Schools are banning christmas carols, and even the word being used in school, right? So aren't they deciding religion for that particular school?
Government is closed on Xmas, as are schools, stores, parking regulations, etc.

As a Jew with kids do you think I'm comfortable with Xmas songs being sung in their public school? Or do you think it's OK for my children to see Xmas being celebrated in their school but not their religion? Same is true for all the other minority religions. Children are impressionable, if they see that one religion is favored by the government more than another or more than their religion doesn't that send the wrong message?

During Passover should public schools have an outdoor homage to the Passover Seder? By this I mean should a Jewish holiday be extolled, separately, in public places too? The bottom line is that religion has no place in any public school or square, but you can build the greatest nativity scene you want on any private property that can still be easily viewed by the masses and that will evoke the "spirit" of the season.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Xmas is everywhere you turn, and identified as Xmas. How many Xmas specials are there on TV in December? C'mon, to me it's like a spoiled child the day after Halloween complaining that his parents won't let him eat candy.

I agree. I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is that government gives tons of special privileges to religion. In theory Christians are not complaining about Christianity not being allowed in government, they're complaining about religion not being permitted. Which, BTW, is why HAPPY HOLIDAYS works in public so well. As a Jew it feels a bit odd when someone who doesn't know me assumes I'm Christian and wishes me Merry Christmas. I still appreciate the thought, but I would appreciate the person and respect them more for saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

Government is closed on Xmas, as are schools, stores, parking regulations, etc.

As a Jew with kids do you think I'm comfortable with Xmas songs being sung in their public school? Or do you think it's OK for my children to see Xmas being celebrated in their school but not their religion? Same is true for all the other minority religions. Children are impressionable, if they see that one religion is favored by the government more than another or more than their religion doesn't that send the wrong message?

During Passover should public schools have an outdoor homage to the Passover Seder? By this I mean should a Jewish holiday be extolled, separately, in public places too? The bottom line is that religion has no place in any public school or square, but you can build the greatest nativity scene you want on any private property that can still be easily viewed by the masses and that will evoke the "spirit" of the season.
And I agree with you, but you're missing my point, where it's ok to denounce the Christmas holiday.. in the name to be non offensive. Did you know the state of Pennsylvania 2 years ago, in the state capital put menorah's all over the Rotunda, but denied the nativity scene, because they didn't want to be offensive? THAT'S the type of stuff I'm talking about. Kids ARE singing Hanukkah and Kwaanza songs in school, but the mere mention of Jesus Christ has the non-believers crying foul.

No matter how you mask it, there IS an assult on Christmas, in the name of being "tolerant" to other religions. And I will stick with my earlier assertion... it's ALL or NOTHING.

And as for being a parent with kids, do you think I want my kids singing Hanukkah songs? How about Kwaanza songs? How about the fact that Christmas in my house has NOTHING to do with religion, and ALL to do with family?

I could care less the meaning that traditional Christians have for the holiday. However, do you see me saying how "uncomfortable" it is? No, because in the end, that is THEIR choice, and I can simply choose to make it mean whatever for me and my family.
 
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26 X World Champs

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debate_junkie said:
No matter how you mask it, there IS an assult on Christmas, in the name of being "tolerant" to other religions. And I will stick with my earlier assertion... it's ALL or NOTHING.
I just can't agree with you, I'm sorry. Show me even one weekly Jewish show vs. the countless number of Christian shows every Sunday? These shows this time of year are 100% Xmas.

My bottom line is that religion should not be in any public arena without exception, and for me it doesn't matter which religion it is.

Since there are quadzillion ways that Christianity is displayed everyday in every hamlet in America and since no one is preventing anyone from practicing their religion in anywhere except on government property it seems to me that Christianity is prospering in America. My God! Look at the leader of the country, isn't he a born again Christian? Doesn't he mention God in his speeches all the time? Isn't God part of his public personna? If Bush brings his religion into his politics then it is natural for the opposition to dispute his choices and to dispute it's place in the public arena if they feel it is improper.

I really think this comes down to some Christians wanting their religion to run rampant in the government, and any attempt to curb the expanse of Christianity in government is met with an outcry of "the war on Christmas" or "the attack on Christianity in America." I'm sorry, I just don't feel that is true, but that is simply my humble opinion. This is not an issue that one can say is absolute fact either way.
 
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26 X World Champs said:
I just can't agree with you, I'm sorry. Show me even one weekly Jewish show vs. the countless number of Christian shows every Sunday? These shows this time of year are 100% Xmas.

My bottom line is that religion should not be in any public arena without exception, and for me it doesn't matter which religion it is.

Since there are quadzillion ways that Christianity is displayed everyday in every hamlet in America and since no one is preventing anyone from practicing their religion in anywhere except on government property it seems to me that Christianity is prospering in America. My God! Look at the leader of the country, isn't he a born again Christian? Doesn't he mention God in his speeches all the time? Isn't God part of his public personna? If Bush brings his religion into his politics then it is natural for the opposition to dispute his choices and to dispute it's place in the public arena if they feel it is improper.

I really think this comes down to some Christians wanting their religion to run rampant in the government, and any attempt to curb the expanse of Christianity in government is met with an outcry of "the war on Christmas" or "the attack on Christianity in America." I'm sorry, I just don't feel that is true, but that is simply my humble opinion. This is not an issue that one can say is absolute fact either way.
It sounds to me that you are automatically qualifying anyone who celebrates Christmas as Christian, and if that is so, then you are gravely mistaken. How is the Christmas tree a symbol of Christianity? A Christmas party in school? Concerts, I'll give you, because some of the traditional carols do mention the "birth". How is saying, Merry Christmas offensive to you? Simply because you don't celebrate it? You mention you feel put off because people say, Merry Christmas.. which is probably what they're used to.. Are they supposed to stop and say... OMG I don't know this person, how should I wish them a merry christmas? Geesh, that's expecting a little much, don't you think? For someone to IMPLICITLY change the way they relate to other people, simply because you "don't practice" the religion of Christmas (as you seem to denote the only people who celebrate it are Christians)

I could care less about Bush and his pandering to the Religious Right. They're all a bunch of lunatics, in my opinion. You don't like it, elect a Jewish president. Elect a Muslim president. But how dare you insist that someone NOT be able to express their faith, even if they are the leader of the free world. The Constitution does NOT go away simply because he is president (OMG did I just stick up for the man? Someone quick, feel my head, I think I'm delirious)

And if "religion" if you will, doesn't belong in government, I guess the Constitution of the United States, and the Declaration of Independence should be disqualified, as well as US currency, if I'm reading your logic correctly.
 

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I really can't be certain on whether or not there's an actual, widespread assault on Christmas or on Christianity, but I have seen examples of it. Not all, but some liberals seem to be hiding a seething hatred for religion (and Christianity in particular) behind what would otherwise seem like a legitimate liberal ideology. On the other hand, I can't help but think that there's an equal amount of Christians who think it would be favorable to ignore the establiment clause of the first amendment in order to promote their own beliefs.

In a way, I can identify with this. As a Christian, I could understand the concept of putting God above one's country, but I don't think that sort of policy is beneficial to one's God or one's county. This is probably a paranoid view to have, but I think "relaxing" the first amendment in the name of "tradition" would actually lead to something resembling an established state religion.

For that reason, I don't care about tradition, and i don't care about how many people it upsets. Federal buildings shouldn't have the ten commandments in it, and official prayer shouldn't be held on school grounds. I don't think church property and whatnot should be treated differently tax-wise, and I think the government should stop paying for the textbooks of kids going to private schools.

On the flip side of things, while I'd agree with a strict separation here, I think it can be brought to a whole different level that's just. . . wrong. Every time I hear about kids being prohibited from independently praying on there own, or bringing in their own religious symbols to a public place, then that just pisses me off. To do that is to discourage the free practice of religion, and is counter-productive to the first amendment's cause.

In the case of place not bound to the government adhering to a secularized movement, that's just stupid. Christmas is a religious holiday that's celebrated both religiously and secularly. To not call it "Christmas", it's name is just absurd. He who supports this sort of thing in a department store or some similar place, is probably in favor of just annihilating religion.

Merry Christmas, and Happy Hanukkah.
 

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debate_junkie said:
It sounds to me that you are automatically qualifying anyone who celebrates Christmas as Christian, and if that is so, then you are gravely mistaken. How is the Christmas tree a symbol of Christianity?
Huh? Are you saying Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athesiest, Wickers, et al celebrate the birth of Christ?
debate_junkie said:
How is saying, Merry Christmas offensive to you? Simply because you don't celebrate it? You mention you feel put off because people say, Merry Christmas.. which is probably what they're used to.. Are they supposed to stop and say... OMG I don't know this person, how should I wish them a merry christmas?
Here's a simple POLITE expression that insures everyone is not offended, HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Perhaps not for you, but for me being considerate means saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS. Perhaps you live in a place that lacks diversity. I live in New York City, probably the most diverse city in the world. Here it is customary to say HAPPY HOLIDAYS because you don't know who's affiliated with which religion or non-religion. Why are you so against being sensitive to other people?
debate_junkie said:
Geesh, that's expecting a little much, don't you think? For someone to IMPLICITLY change the way they relate to other people, simply because you "don't practice" the religion of Christmas (as you seem to denote the only people who celebrate it are Christians)
I do not understand what you wrote here? It reads to me "my way or the highway" which I find insensitive. Do you live somewhere where everyone is the same?
debate_junkie said:
I could care less about Bush and his pandering to the Religious Right. They're all a bunch of lunatics, in my opinion. You don't like it, elect a Jewish president. Elect a Muslim president. But how dare you insist that someone NOT be able to express their faith, even if they are the leader of the free world. The Constitution does NOT go away simply because he is president (OMG did I just stick up for the man? Someone quick, feel my head, I think I'm delirious)
I again have no idea why you've written that I am against Bush or anyone for that matter expressing their personal religious beliefs, for I am not. What I wrote and I guess what you misunderstood was that if Bush uses his bully pulpit to preach to America he should naturally expect opposition to what he's saying, be it political or religious. You misunderstood my post.
debate_junkie said:
And if "religion" if you will, doesn't belong in government, I guess the Constitution of the United States, and the Declaration of Independence should be disqualified, as well as US currency, if I'm reading your logic correctly.
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document in the USA, it has nothing at all to do with the law. It is a sacred document, but not a legal one, it carries no weight at all.

The Constitution? Pretty clear that it prohibits government from taking a stance on religion, pro or against any and all religions, hence no organized prayers in public schools, no nativity scenes, etc. The Constitution is what protects all of us from a theocracy.

US Currency? It was not until July of 1955 that it became a law, certainly it had nothing to do with our founding fathers, the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

I personally find it not offensive to have it on money. Why? I am not forced to recite it, it is not specific at all to Christianity, and it is actually the legal official motto of the USA. One thing it definitely is not, is Christian only, and therein lies the difference.
 

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I've been observing this debate from afar, and I wasn't going to get involved, but I've been doing some thinking as to how this could be comprimised to appease both sides of the argument. Both sides of this issue seem to like to take it to an extreme, one way or the other.

The Christian side thinks they should be able to inundate the schools with as much of their religion as they please, and if other people don't like it they should keep their kids home. The far left thinks that the schools should be devoid of any religion (except for their own, of course).

For what reason cannot a comprimise be reached on this issue? What exactly is wrong with simply providing a moment of silent meditation, during which time the kids may opt to pray or opt not to? Why can't songs of varying cultures religious or non-religious be sung by school-kids? People quibbling over things that mean almost nothing in the grand scheme is all that prevents this rather utopian view from being reality. Just give kids the choice. Let them decide what they find offensive and if they opt not to participate in a particular song or celebration, they should be lauded for exercising their freedom.

While I'm not a man of religion, myself, I never found anything about anyone else's religion at all offensive, and I enjoyed singing along with my classmates. Singing the Dradel song didn't turn me Jewish, nor did singing "Oh Holy Night" turn me Christian. Both are lovely songs and only served to hike my interest in learning about other cultures, which is something that I think in today's highly polarized political and religious climate would behoove us all.
 
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debate_junkie said:
Christmas Music Banned at...Christmas Concert

Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today on the decision by Florida Gulf Coast University (FGCU) to ban Christmas music from this year’s Christmas concert:

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7027
Nowhere in this article does it say which songs they aren’t allowed to sing. If they want to sing songs like “jingle bells” and “Rudolph,” which aren’t overtly Christian, I can understand their grievance. But if they want to sings songs like “Jebus, Jebus, Jebus” or “Christ almighty: you the God for me” than I say **** ‘em, that **** is offensive. How would they feel if I were to go around caroling with songs they find offensive? How about some nice festive Eminem?

debate_junkie said:
Another school
censoring Christmas?
Teachers reportedly prohibited from wearing pins, using C-word

Teachers at a Georgia elementary school reportedly were told to nix any religious pins and refrain from referring to a party as a "Christmas" party, while the local district has censored certain religious Christmas songs from its "winter" program.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=47640
Poor christians just can’t get over the idea that bringing the religious aspects of their holidays into the classroom violates the separation of church from state. Can’t display nativity scenes or sing praises to your God in school sponsored events? Oh, no….. Jebus must be spinning in his grave.

debate_junkie said:
Boston "holiday tree" stirs controversy

BOSTON (Reuters) - Boston set off a furor this week when it officially renamed a giant tree erected in a city park a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051125/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg-
Maybe we’ll get lucky and this will give Falwell an aneurism. I personally have nothing against the term ‘christmas tree,’ but I don’t see how calling it a ‘holiday tree’ makes one whit of difference. It’s a tree that’s displayed for the holidays. Sheesh, it’s not like they’re to call it “Satan’s Spruce” or something like that.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1356566 said:
…Douglas Laycock, a constitutional law professor at the University of Texas at Austin. "This is a publicity trick,” he said. “And it’s a fundraising tool.”
Couldn't agree more.
 

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Befuddled_Stoner said:
Nowhere in this article does it say which songs they aren’t allowed to sing. If they want to sing songs like “jingle bells” and “Rudolph,” which aren’t overtly Christian, I can understand their grievance. But if they want to sings songs like “Jebus, Jebus, Jebus” or “Christ almighty: you the God for me” than I say **** ‘em, that **** is offensive. How would they feel if I were to go around caroling with songs they find offensive? How about some nice festive Eminem?



Poor christians just can’t get over the idea that bringing the religious aspects of their holidays into the classroom violates the separation of church from state. Can’t display nativity scenes or sing praises to your God in school sponsored events? Oh, no….. Jebus must be spinning in his grave.



Maybe we’ll get lucky and this will give Falwell an aneurism. I personally have nothing against the term ‘christmas tree,’ but I don’t see how calling it a ‘holiday tree’ makes one whit of difference. It’s a tree that’s displayed for the holidays. Sheesh, it’s not like they’re to call it “Satan’s Spruce” or something like that.



Couldn't agree more.
Please tell me how having a Christmas tree, or a Christmas party is bringing religious symbols into the schools? Last time I checked... tree's and party's are secular celebration's of the holiday, or am I just misguided.

And Champs, since I just woke up I'll give you the long and short of it. I was raised outside of Philadelphia, and for most of my young life, my great aunt and uncle lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. We would be gently reminded that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and after feeling 2 inches small for a matter of seconds, would respond with a quick Happy Hanukkah. I come from a place where tolerance was the norm(once it was established their belief systems were different), and where people didn't get offended. It seems trivial to me... the operative words being.. TO ME... to get offended over the words Merry Christmas, and Christmas, especially when there are bigger things to worry about. It appears small to me, and I usually never sweat the small stuff. So if it is a big deal to you, my apologies. We'll just agree to disagree.
 

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debate_junkie said:
And Champs, since I just woke up I'll give you the long and short of it. I was raised outside of Philadelphia, and for most of my young life, my great aunt and uncle lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. We would be gently reminded that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and after feeling 2 inches small for a matter of seconds, would respond with a quick Happy Hanukkah. I come from a place where tolerance was the norm(once it was established their belief systems were different), and where people didn't get offended. It seems trivial to me... the operative words being.. TO ME... to get offended over the words Merry Christmas, and Christmas, especially when there are bigger things to worry about. It appears small to me, and I usually never sweat the small stuff. So if it is a big deal to you, my apologies. We'll just agree to disagree.
Merry Christmas does not offend me at all, but I know plenty of Jews that do take offense to it in that it makes them feel a form of segregation or it makes them feel like a minority rather than part of the whole.

We're not talking about Earth shattering feelings, but what I am simply saying is that Xmas is truly everywhere so separating it a la Church and State not only is what the Constitution demands but also what should be politically sensitive as well.

Xmas in school is just not right when sponsored by the school. If students want to say Merry Xmas or whatever no one will stop them from privately expressing their felicitations.

I also just can't get over the feeling that I sense when the "Woe is Me Christmas is under Attack" lobby tries to push Xmas further into the public domain that it already dominates.

BTW - I feel very strongly that one's personal relationship with their higher power should be a very private matter, and that the attempt by any organized group to over extend it's point of view into someone else's space is what is at the heart of my feelings.

It comes down to my not wanting to have my life invaded by someone else's religion if I am in public somewhere and my choice is my privacy.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Boo hoo! Poor deprived Christians! It's so hard to be a Christian today, everywhere you turn in public Christianity is being overrun by evil Liberals!

Give me a break! Stop you're whining! I'm Jewish and it is totally offensive to read posts like this one. Reading junk like this makes me realize how many "Christians" there still are in the USA who are unable to tolerate diversity.

Boo hoo hoo....poor subjugated American Christians!




The truth IS that NOBODY should be offended by anybody's own particular religous beliefs because of political correctness, or the celebrations of them as ALL people are FREE to express their OWN beliefs.

All religions should be respected & tollerated in America, not punished just because one is larger or smaller than the other.

WHY should Christianity, & its holiday's, or sayings be censured because it happens to be the largest religion base in America??

So what next IF other religions become the majority in America, ..Do we censure their religious belief system, & traditions for the sake of those not in the majority?

Seems as if certain politically correct whackos think that by censuring the MAJORITIES religous words & beliefs, & limiting their celebrations, or their religious displays will help create this so called, FICTIONAL right of a "level playing field" mentality!

This is WHY we need good responsible judges on the supreme court...to end this invented mirage of "seeing whatever one wants to within the constitution", ...to end this lunacy!
 
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Stu Ghatze said:
The truth IS that NOBODY should be offended by anybody's own particular religous beliefs because of political correctness, or the celebrations of them as ALL people are FREE to express their OWN beliefs.
And they are, absolutely, just not in events or institutions sponsored by or owned by the government.
Stu Ghatze said:
All religions should be respected & tollerated in America, not punished just because one is larger or smaller than the other.
Exactly the reason why government should always have no opinion in religious matters, large or small. I think the government needs to be 100% neutral 100% of the time.
Stu Ghatze said:
WHY should Christianity, & its holiday's, or sayings be censured because it happens to be the largest religion base in America??
This is the crux of what I consider to be the public whining of certain Christians and Christian rights groups. Everywhere you look in December you see and hear Christmas. To think otherwise is what I consider to be the whine or spoiled child factor, you know the kid, the one no matter how much they have always want more and will cry and cry until he gets his way.
Stu Ghatze said:
Seems as if certain politically correct whackos think that by censuring the MAJORITIES religous words & beliefs, & limiting their celebrations, or their religious displays will help create this so called, FICTIONAL right of a "level playing field" mentality!
Nothing is being censored IMHO, this is a mis-statement. Allowing Christian (or any prayers or any religious songs) in the public square is unconstitutional, period. Majority has absolutely nothing to do with it, nada, zero, zilch.

If the government officially calls a tree a "Holiday Tree" you can still call it a Xmas tree but the government is not taking sides, it's simply acknowledging everyone, something that those who want Christmas in government don't want, they want their cake and eat it too.
 
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