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The war on Christmas

Look at Barna statistics….
“Ninety one percent of all born again Christians do not have a Biblical worldview. As of 2003, the United States has about 210 million adults. About 80 million are born again Christians. Roughly 7 million have a Biblical worldview. That is just one out of every 30 adults in this nation.”

Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car anymore than sitting in church doesnt make one a Christian either. We have become a secular nation. I believe like Barna states in most of his polls that many are Christian for social reasons and in name only. They do not live by a Christian worldview.

I think we live in a time defined not by our morals but by our fascination with obscenity. You never hear good things on the news, and rarely a day goes by that the headlines are not about a sex scandal or rape, abuse, kidnapping, or some other sordid event around the country. We are a sexually sick nation. And this war over sex is now a tool being used to collapse moral foundations of major public institutions like the federal justice system, the educational system.


The United States Census in 2000 showed that “2 parent families now represent less than 25% of ALL households in America, down from 45% in 1960.

Over the same 40 year period the percentage of single-parent families tripled, the divorce rate doubled, the percentage of people getting married all dropped lower than ever before.

Cohabitation increased 1000% and the rate of illegitimacy rose by 500%.

Abortions are performed on 80% who are not married.”

Those who can’t see or deny watching the deteriorating moral climate of America live on some other planet. If you aren’t alarmed at the increases of kids killing kids, drug use, promiscuity, infidelity, homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, and the worst abortion………then I do not know what else to say. It’s all there. These are all signs of a decaying society.

Ask any teenager today what morals are, and I think you would be saddened to what their answer would be if any of them knew what the word "moral" meant.


These are taken taken from Bill Bennett’s INDEX OF LEADING CULTURAL INDICATORS; AMERICAN SOCIETY AT THE END OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.

1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
4. The number of children living in single parent homes up threefold
5. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%\
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000


Another study done by Rutgers University called “THE STATE OF OUR UNIONS:THE SOCIAL HEALTH OF MARRIAGE IN AMERICA”, 1999

“Key social indicators suggest that marriage in America is weakening. Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce. Marriages are also less happy. They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle.”

They suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.

People will look back like we are today wondering how we let things get so out of control. How did we succumb to the disease of secular humanism?

George Washington so wisely warned, "... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle."

Boy he was right.

If ya play by mans rules you lose, but if you play by Gods your never alone, He stands with you.
There is much to say about having a godly worldview and living a moral life.

Even though America is no longer a moral place………we who choose to follow God can’t lose site of what and how He tells us to live.
 
Tryreading responded to my statement....
("The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society.") "Ever hear of parents, and parenting? Not a new concept."

Then why teach sex education in the schools? Parents are doing a crap job in my estimation. They are to busy working out at the gym, keepin up with the Joneses...........Don't even get me started on this one. Most can't even get their children to do homework to hand in on time.

Tryreading commented on my statement,
("And the liberal, secular side controls schools today.")
"This is paranoia."

The content of education is the NEA's strategy; progressive, humanist values.

This is another topic and I won't even get started ....Humanist Manifesto.

This is a good article I think says a lot.

www.sntp.net/education/nea_humanist.htm
 
It's official - A Declaration of War on Christmas!

declaration-of-war800x1063.jpg
 
doughgirl said:
"Christianity be rammed down people's throats?"

Please tell me how Christianity is rammed down your throats?

We are not even a Christian nation anymore. We used to be but we are not today. We are a secular nation. Most people today even those claiming to be Christians say there are no moral absolutes.

I believe the culture we live in today is lost. We are made up of iconoclastic scholars and opinionmakers who are percieved as saviors who have changed society as we use to know and have remade culture in THEIR OWN IMAGE.

They have done this mainly through education; our schools and universities.
The institution that controls the schools sets the moral standard of society. And the liberal, secular side controls schools today. This is where children are brainwashed to accept or reject certain ideals. And those being rejected today are godly views. Today morals have no place in schools because there is no absolute morality. That is what the left says. And the secular side doesnt want any mention of God or that worldview talked about. Denying God leaves man free to abolish the past and decree the future....a pagan future.
Look at us. We have become one of the most violent and drugged nations on earth.


Doughgirl you obviously have no concept of secularism. Secularism is the belief that government should be seperate from religion, and that religion is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to practice, and NOT GOVERNMENT TO MANDADTE.

If you think that secularlism is going to lead to pagenism, how about you read up on Turkey. It's constitution is strictly secular, yet I am unable to see any evidence that the majority muslim nation is turning into a pagen craddle. Unless you equate Islam to pagenism.

Lastly secularism does not deny god. It just states that it is up to the individual to practice religious values, not the state. Maybe that is what scares you the most. People having their own individual freedom to have religious choice, to have their own freedom to practice it is an individual. To have their own strength in belief, without the need for government mandates.

It seems that securalism tends to be given a bad rep in America, and Australia. It seems that some people equate securalism with millitant marxist-communism, which was inherenty atheist and mandated the destruction of all religion.

Secularism is not anti-religion, but rather treats all religions equally, because the basis of the secular principle, is that governments should not mandate any religion, force people to adopt religion, or make religious based laws. Secularism actually protects all people's religious beliefs.

Lastly there is no evidence that secularism encourages people to be any more violent, or more likely to use drugs. So don't make statements if you don't have any evidence or data to back up your claims.
 
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IMHO just debating this pointless issue is a TOTAL waste of time. It's the kind of "distraction du jour" that the corporate media loves to focus on.

No matter what is said or done here, how eloquent the argument, the same crap will rear it's ugly head next season. Especially if there's not a missing white girl in the Carribean. :roll:
 
dogger807 said:
In a nutshell the whole war on Christmas idea is nothing more than the bully complaining that the dog bit him after being kicked repeatedly. :wow:

Good analogy. The Christians are downtrodden? Stifled? Controlled?

Every city in Central Florida that I have visited has a street display celebrating Christmas. Its everywhere. In St. Cloud (Osceola County), we don't need street lights this time of year, because the entire city glows.

This is a control issue, as far as Christians wanting religious symbols in public buildings, prayer in schools, Christmas displays in public venues. They want their faith inserted into the lives of all Americans, many of whom don't want or need it.

They call this a Christian nation, and remind us that the country is 86% Christian (depending on which poll is quoted). A majority this strong can be persecuted? I don't think so.

Disclaimer: I do not hate Christians. I respect their faith and would fight for them to have the right to worship. I just don't respect particular individuals who say they want I.D. in schools, and Roman Crosses in the court houses.
 
I just have one question. Why are all these secularists coming out about this anti-Christmas shinannigans now? I don't remember this stuff happening in the 90's.
 
hipsterdufus said:
IMHO just debating this pointless issue is a TOTAL waste of time. It's the kind of "distraction du jour" that the corporate media loves to focus on.

No matter what is said or done here, how eloquent the argument, the same crap will rear it's ugly head next season. Especially if there's not a missing white girl in the Carribean. :roll:

Nicely put.
 
doughgirl said:
Look at Barna statistics….
“Ninety one percent of all born again Christians do not have a Biblical worldview. As of 2003, the United States has about 210 million adults. About 80 million are born again Christians. Roughly 7 million have a Biblical worldview. That is just one out of every 30 adults in this nation.”

Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car anymore than sitting in church doesnt make one a Christian either. We have become a secular nation. I believe like Barna states in most of his polls that many are Christian for social reasons and in name only. They do not live by a Christian worldview.

I think we live in a time defined not by our morals but by our fascination with obscenity. You never hear good things on the news, and rarely a day goes by that the headlines are not about a sex scandal or rape, abuse, kidnapping, or some other sordid event around the country. We are a sexually sick nation. And this war over sex is now a tool being used to collapse moral foundations of major public institutions like the federal justice system, the educational system.

Bad news sells papers. Sad but true, if there is bad news anywhere the media will jump all over it. And you wanna talk about sex? Read the bible it's one of the most obscene books ever put to paper.

doughgirl said:
The United States Census in 2000 showed that “2 parent families now represent less than 25% of ALL households in America, down from 45% in 1960.

Over the same 40 year period the percentage of single-parent families tripled, the divorce rate doubled, the percentage of people getting married all dropped lower than ever before.

Cohabitation increased 1000% and the rate of illegitimacy rose by 500%.

Abortions are performed on 80% who are not married.”

Those who can’t see or deny watching the deteriorating moral climate of America live on some other planet. If you aren’t alarmed at the increases of kids killing kids, drug use, promiscuity, infidelity, homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, and the worst abortion………then I do not know what else to say. It’s all there. These are all signs of a decaying society.

Actually only a few items you mentioned are detrimental to society (kids killing kids and drug use.) The rest are arguably neutreul or benifitial. Abortion is one of the few population controls for our species, it's not only benifitial , it's esential no matter how you feel about the morality of it. Of course your more than willing to hope your non existant god takes care of the human race even after we do something stupid like unregulated population growth. Promisuity and infidelity help with genetic diversity. But you probably don't believe in genetics since it's something science came up with and we all know science is out to get christians. Homosexuality.. ah the witch hunt of the next century. Yet another example of how mistranslating the biggest book of fiction from latin causes idiocity. Prostitution... The oldest proffession. I'll almost give you this one but I think it's more neutral socialy. Porno??? Hardly detrimental... the human body is a wonder to behold.

doughgirl said:
Ask any teenager today what morals are, and I think you would be saddened to what their answer would be if any of them knew what the word "moral" meant.


These are taken taken from Bill Bennett’s INDEX OF LEADING CULTURAL INDICATORS; AMERICAN SOCIETY AT THE END OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.

1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
4. The number of children living in single parent homes up threefold
5. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000


Another study done by Rutgers University called “THE STATE OF OUR UNIONS:THE SOCIAL HEALTH OF MARRIAGE IN AMERICA”, 1999

“Key social indicators suggest that marriage in America is weakening. Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce. Marriages are also less happy. They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle.”

They suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.

People will look back like we are today wondering how we let things get so out of control. How did we succumb to the disease of secular humanism?

George Washington so wisely warned, "... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle."

Boy he was right.

If ya play by mans rules you lose, but if you play by Gods your never alone, He stands with you.
There is much to say about having a godly worldview and living a moral life.

Even though America is no longer a moral place………we who choose to follow God can’t lose site of what and how He tells us to live

The main thing wrong with your post is that you assume your morals are the only true morals. In truth they are sickenly primitive. Also you equate religion with morals, this is a blatant falsehood. In fact I posted a link earlier this thread showing morality and religion inversely related on a social level.
 
Well, I didn't feel like reading ALL of the posts, they end up just being more of the same. The thing about religion in America is that America has always favored the seperation of church and state. End of story. Schools, courthouses, any other government buildings, UNIVERSITIES, cannot be seen as showing religious bias towards any religion in particular. America was founded upon the forefathers, who were all christian, however ALL of the forefathers preferred the seperation of church and state. I believe that the church DOES promote some good ideas, at least morally. However, it would be ignorant to think that just because you aren't christian those morals do not exist.

Personally, I'm deistic (look it up). I do not mind religion in the least (unless they try to convert me - then its hilarious). Ironically, the "christmas" tree was originally a Pagan idea, which the Christians stole and used in their own religion as a "symbol" of christianity. How's that for a good laugh :lol: .
 
Secularism has not proven very good for public schools.As God and old fashioned morality has been driven ot of schools.Acomplishment has followed,New York city with a 9 billion dollar public school budget , graduates 50% of its students.The Catholic schools of NYC graduate 85 to 90% .
 
dogger807 said:
Bad news sells papers. Sad but true, if there is bad news anywhere the media will jump all over it. And you wanna talk about sex? Read the bible it's one of the most obscene books ever put to paper.



Actually only a few items you mentioned are detrimental to society (kids killing kids and drug use.) The rest are arguably neutreul or benifitial. Abortion is one of the few population controls for our species, it's not only benifitial , it's esential no matter how you feel about the morality of it. Of course your more than willing to hope your non existant god takes care of the human race even after we do something stupid like unregulated population growth. Promisuity and infidelity help with genetic diversity. But you probably don't believe in genetics since it's something science came up with and we all know science is out to get christians. Homosexuality.. ah the witch hunt of the next century. Yet another example of how mistranslating the biggest book of fiction from latin causes idiocity. Prostitution... The oldest proffession. I'll almost give you this one but I think it's more neutral socialy. Porno??? Hardly detrimental... the human body is a wonder to behold.



The main thing wrong with your post is that you assume your morals are the only true morals. In truth they are sickenly primitive. Also you equate religion with morals, this is a blatant falsehood. In fact I posted a link earlier this thread showing morality and religion inversely related on a social level.

Jeez dude, what is your major malfunction, did you get fondled by a priest or something?:shock:

Your bitter attitude to wards the church is more then obvious in your avatar, but your angry rhetoric is what's bothering me, and I'm not even religious. I suggest seeking some help with this problem, it's obviously eating you alive inside.

Your belief in absolutely nothing, gives you no right to be critical, or demeaning to others who have faith. You speak so often of morals, and how you don't have to be religious to have them, I agree, but your not a very good example of that, not at all. Get over it, people are going to believe in things you do not, it's not your job to convince anyone otherwise. Look in that "obscene" bible you were tallking about, and find the section on crusades, that may help you on your journey.:roll:
 
Deegan said:
Jeez dude, what is your major malfunction, did you get fondled by a priest or something?:shock:

Your bitter attitude to wards the church is more then obvious in your avatar, but your angry rhetoric is what's bothering me, and I'm not even religious. I suggest seeking some help with this problem, it's obviously eating you alive inside.

Your belief in absolutely nothing, gives you no right to be critical, or demeaning to others who have faith. You speak so often of morals, and how you don't have to be religious to have them, I agree, but your not a very good example of that, not at all. Get over it, people are going to believe in things you do not, it's not your job to convince anyone otherwise. Look in that "obscene" bible you were tallking about, and find the section on crusades, that may help you on your journey.:roll:

Hey!!! I like my avatar.
 
JOHNYJ said:
Secularism has not proven very good for public schools.As God and old fashioned morality has been driven ot of schools.Acomplishment has followed,New York city with a 9 billion dollar public school budget , graduates 50% of its students.The Catholic schools of NYC graduate 85 to 90% .

Look - my school graduates 100% of it's students and 100% go to college and we're not religious, we're a private school.

I challenge you to find some facts to back up that statement.
 
Deegan said:
Your belief in absolutely nothing, gives you no right to be critical, or demeaning to others who have faith. You speak so often of morals, and how you don't have to be religious to have them, I agree, but your not a very good example of that, not at all. Get over it, people are going to believe in things you do not, it's not your job to convince anyone otherwise. Look in that "obscene" bible you were tallking about, and find the section on crusades, that may help you on your journey.:roll:

Yet they are constantly demeaning and critical of my point of view to the point of calling me immoral just for not believing the same things they do. Is not turn about fair play?


I merely pointed out that doughgirl's moral's are neither universal nor inherently good. I even scratched the surface of social arguments against her point of view.

You make it sound as if being anti-religious were a bad thing or something.
 
dogger807 said:
Yet they are constantly demeaning and critical of my point of view to the point of calling me immoral just for not believing the same things they do. Is not turn about fair play?


I merely pointed out that doughgirl's moral's are neither universal nor inherently good. I even scratched the surface of social arguments against her point of view.

You make it sound as if being anti-religious were a bad thing or something.

Look, there is good and bad in everything, and not all churches preach such nonsense. I just don't know why anyone would be anti-religious, it does not make sense to me, but seems to be gaining steam these days. Religion has been the cause of many of societies ills, but has also done just as much good, if not more, for billions. I don't pretend to defend anyone who would look down on anyone, or not see them as equal, just because of their beliefs, or lack there of. I get very angry, and defensive, when I hear folks talking down to those who believe differently from them, and make light of their strongly held faiths. Just because some may have pushed their beliefs on others, is in no way, reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Just respect others for their differences, we could all stand to do a little more of that.
 
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Heres to hoping you all have a Happy Solstice....sitting in front of the Yule tree, Sipping mulled spiced cider, and thanking whatever God you look to. Personally, I rather enjoy the pretty lights Christans place all over.....reminds me of the spring to come, which is what this celebration is really all about.....In My Opinion
 
tecoyah has it right. Whatever beliefs you hold, now is a time for peace.


Happy Holidays!!! :lol:
 
dogger807 said:
tecoyah has it right. Whatever beliefs you hold, now is a time for peace.


Happy Holidays!!! :lol:

Agreed, Merry Christmas to all.:2wave:
 
dogger807 said:
Happy Holidays!!! :lol:
Want to see how assinine it can get when the rabid religious right feels too empowered? Here's a front page story from today's Washington Post:
'Holiday' Cards Ring Hollow for Some on Bushes' List

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 7, 2005; Page A01

What's missing from the White House Christmas card? Christmas.

This month, as in every December since he took office, President Bush sent out cards with a generic end-of-the-year message, wishing 1.4 million of his close friends and supporters a happy "holiday season."

Many people are thrilled to get a White House Christmas card, no matter what the greeting inside. But some conservative Christians are reacting as if Bush stuck coal in their stockings.

SNIP....

Bush "claims to be a born-again, evangelical Christian. But he sure doesn't act like one," said Joseph Farah, editor of the conservative Web site WorldNetDaily.com. "I threw out my White House card as soon as I got it."

SNIP....

Susan Whitson, Laura Bush's press secretary. "Their cards in recent years have included best wishes for a holiday season, rather than Christmas wishes, because they are sent to people of all faiths."

SNIP....

"It bothers me that the White House card leaves off any reference to Jesus, while we've got Ramadan celebrations in the White House," Wildmon said. "What's going on there?"

SNIP....

the Bushes included a verse from Psalm 28, but Psalms are in the Old Testament and do not mention Jesus' birth.

SNIP....

"Ninety-six percent of Americans celebrate Christmas," Donohue said. "Spare me the diversity lecture."
Source:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601900_2.html

Amazing! Talk about whiney cry babies! :boohoo: :boohoo:
 
26 X World Champs said:
Want to see how assinine it can get when the rabid religious right feels too empowered? Here's a front page story from today's Washington Post:

Source:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601900_2.html

Amazing! Talk about whiney cry babies! :boohoo: :boohoo:

Wow, Champs, I would have thought you would have taken the time to expose Bush for his "playing both sides of the coin" These same people, that are angry about the Christmas cards, are the same people he had to pacify after nominating Harriet Myers by saying "But she's religious."

He's jumping back and forth, trying to appease, after spending so many years with his divisiveness in some areas. It's coming home to roost, I think.
 
debate_junkie said:
Wow, Champs, I would have thought you would have taken the time to expose Bush for his "playing both sides of the coin"
This thread is about the so-called "war on Christmas" so I am saving my Bush bashing for threads dedicated to debunking everything he says and does...:mrgreen:

You know there are "Christians" who are boycotting Wal-Mart because they won't advertise "Christmas" opting for the universally polite "happy holiday" or "season's greetings." Now these same people have no problem shopping at Wal-Mart even if they source their products from sweatshops all over the 3rd world, no problem, but saying "Happy Holidays" is worthy of a boycot! How sick is that????

Oh, one last thing, doesn't "holiday" mean HOLY DAY?

Boohoohoo, poor rabid religious righters lives are being totally destroyed by Wal-Mart, Target, President Bush and anyone else who disagrees with them! Christ! This is a inane, inept, ignorant argument the RRRers are spewing!
 
Donkey1499 said:
I just have one question. Why are all these secularists coming out about this anti-Christmas shinannigans now? I don't remember this stuff happening in the 90's.

Don't have time to answer your questions right now, too busy being secular, but I want to join President Bush in wishing you a Happy Holiday Season!
 
And the boycott of Ford cars because of Ford had ads for their cars in gay magazines. Recently suspended, however, I find this boycott extremely arrogant and intolerant. For christ's sake (literally), what does it matter to you if a certain ad is in a "gay" magazine?

I want to find the "Christian" who originally "found out" Ford had ads in gay magazines. That ought to be funny.
 
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