The Victim Mentality

[misterman]

BamaBrat, thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Alyssa]

I've known a few people, all women if I recall correctly, in that situation. It was so ingrained in their minds that they were powerless to change their situations. They saw themselves as victims, usually of powerful men, and had basically abdicated control over their lives to others, often to their sexual partners or a kind of father figure. In some cases it came from abuse, in some cases it came from an extremely authoritarian upbringing. In each instance, it was hugely crippling to these women.

A lot of that has to do with self esteem. And self esteem comes mainly from environmental influences. But with that being said, for most of my life, my self esteem has been lacking and yet the first man to ever beat me would likely end up in the morgue. So there's also a genetic influence there. My aunt's husband hit her in the face. And she went after him with a butcher knife. :shrug:

I suppose I deserved that, since I threw out a one-liner and walked away from it, but I didn't actually intend to come across as being one-dimensional on this topic.

Sure, there's cause and effect. **** happens and a lot of time it is hard to get over. I've got things in my background that still try to kick my ass everytime I close my eyes. Psychological demons beating on the cage door, all that. Things I do and things I avoid because of past traumas.... if you live to middle age without such baggage then you've had a lot more luck in life than me.

I could give you some personal stories about my own oddities, and what caused me to be like that, and how hard it is to overcome.... but most of us know how it goes. I do try to own my own flaws, though, and work to overcome them. I won't say I'm always successful, but at least I'm trying.

I see a lot of people these days, though, that seem to want to blame everything but their own choices, and avoid all personal responsibility, and wallow in victimhood rather than try to live the best life they can.... they have my sympathy, but (sorry) not my respect.

I agree. But it is hard to tell who is trying and who isn't from an outside perspective. While someone viewing my life from the "outside" may believe that I am not trying, they would be wrong. The same goes for anyone else. You know- the whole "walk a mile in someone's shoes" analogy.

Personal responsibility is not always a learned behavior. Some people just seem to have it naturally regardless of their circumstances while others don't. How many times have we seen highly motivated succesfulpeople who take a lot of personal responsibilty while they have siblings who take the low road and end up suffering because of it? raised in the same environment yet they turn out completly different. My two kids could not be farther apart, yet I have strived to make sure how they are raised and treated is equal. Sometimes people simply are who they are.

While there are outliers (people who have natural tenacity) most of us learn models of responsibility from our parents. It's hard to break habits that are likely based on how people are raised. A lot of the wiring for behavior is set by an early age. Our Personality Is Fully Developed By the Age of 7 - Softpedia

There are those who will make lemonade out of lemons and others will just suck on it and complain about how bitter it is. I believe it all depends on a persons outlook on life as to how they handle the cards they were dealt.

Genetic and environmental factors also determine how a person views life. How much control do we have over those aspects?

My opinion is that while there are many infuential circumstances that play a part in how our personalities are formed, people are individuals and will react individually to any given circumstance. Personally, regardless of how I or anyone else was raised, once an adult and on our own, our life and all of the actions and decisions we make are our responsibility. We do have the choice to learn from success and failure, from the good and bad that we associated early in life. Not that there won't be scars, everyone has them and they are our own individual ones. We can choose to let our lives be run by those scars or we can choose to run our lives despite our scars. The latter, while often difficult ultimately leads to a more succesful, more fulfilling life.

Decisions and actions are often determined by how our brains have been "wired." Ultimately, people do not control that aspect. But I'm not saying that personal responsibility is irrelevant.

Hmm. I was referring to those who don't even seem to try, to be specific. Not those that have hard-to-overcome issues.

I can't help it, I'm a fighter. I fight until there's no hope left, then I fight some more, just to be a stubborn bastard. It is my nature.

yeah i have found that as much as I want to die, when it comes right down to it, I fight like hell to live.

Reading some of the replies has given me a couple more thoughts to share. For the majority that have demons ( I have some as well) I personally believe that the modern psychotherapy can go too far rumaging around with the past. There is a use for it, but weekly visits to the shrink to keep rehashing events that were painful is not conducive to moving forward. Yeah, we have to deal with them to a degree, but y'know, sometimes the bad shyt that has happened to us just needs to be accepted. It happened, maybe through no fault of our own and now its done. Maybe it set us back big time, maybe it has lifetime consequences, but, we still move forward. Whenever I see some guy come back from the battlefield missing half his body and half of his friends and he finds a way to move foward, then damn it all if I can't too. Learn from our mistakes, learn from the shyt things that happened to us in the past and not repeat it. No need to keep reliving it over and over again, that ain't moving forward. Sometimes I wonder when something that happened early on that was so traumatic that people have a block of memory from it, maybe that is our minds way of not having to deal with it and be able to move forward. Dig that stuff up and its like being on a loop reliving the nightmare over and over again. Our minds bury stuff for a reason.

i wish my mind could bury a lot of things, but I remember nearly everything. I don't have a photographic memory, but it's close.

 

[joko104]

Reading some of the replies has given me a couple more thoughts to share. For the majority that have demons ( I have some as well) I personally believe that the modern psychotherapy can go too far rumaging around with the past. There is a use for it, but weekly visits to the shrink to keep rehashing events that were painful is not conducive to moving forward. Yeah, we have to deal with them to a degree, but y'know, sometimes the bad shyt that has happened to us just needs to be accepted. It happened, maybe through no fault of our own and now its done. Maybe it set us back big time, maybe it has lifetime consequences, but, we still move forward. Whenever I see some guy come back from the battlefield missing half his body and half of his friends and he finds a way to move foward, then damn it all if I can't too. Learn from our mistakes, learn from the shyt things that happened to us in the past and not repeat it. No need to keep reliving it over and over again, that ain't moving forward. Sometimes I wonder when something that happened early on that was so traumatic that people have a block of memory from it, maybe that is our minds way of not having to deal with it and be able to move forward. Dig that stuff up and its like being on a loop reliving the nightmare over and over again. Our minds bury stuff for a reason.

I agree. In addition, most psychologists each have their own view how people should behave and then attempt to convince accordingly. A person can learn from the past, but also should live in the future.

 

[BamaBrat]

I can't comment on the specific posts you're referring to, but as something who has made the arguments in your first paragraph, I can say that when I say such things, I am not arguing for a "victim mentality", but a simple acknowledgement of cause and effect.

People tend to repeat the behavior that they experience. For example, people who experience abuse are more likely to abuse and people who are raised by college graduates are more likely to go to college. There are always exceptions and many people try to use those exceptions to dismiss the norm, but try as they might, such dismissal is not valid. For example, in your post, you talk about your past as an example of how looking at someone's history is not a valid explanation of their behavior. While it's admirable that you did not repeat the patterns that you lived through, your choices were likely influenced by more than just you. In other words, rarely, if ever, does anything come down solely to choice. Choices are usually and probably always, the effects of many causes.

I have some friends who do, in fact, have a victim mentality and I've told each of them we are all, in some respects, our parents' "fault", but the moment you realize where you learned your behavior from is the moment that you become responsible for maintaining it. However, it is undeniable that circumstance influences the choices that we make. This is a statistical reality that cannot be dismissed by saying, "hey, I had an abusive father and I didn't abuse my kids".

Like I said, when I mention the examples you did in your first paragraph, I'm pointing to the simple reality of cause and effect. I'm not using it to advocate a victim mentality or decrease personal responsibility. The influence that environment has on a person's decisions coexists with personal responsibility and to dismiss one for the sake of the other is a mistake and one that will do more harm than good for developing solutions to many of the problems in our society.

very true...the part about other things influencing me and changing my outcome.... very true. I was raised from a young age by grandparents who loved me and with THEM I had a great childhood.

Im not trying to say that I dont understand where it comes from. There is definitely validity to things like....kids who are abused becoming abusers and the like. Like liblady said....kind of a brainwashing to a degree. I get that. I just wonder where the line is sometimes. We tend to feel really awful for people who were, using the example, abused as children as well we should. Then they grow up and commit those same actions and we sometimes seem to say... oh they were abused, we should excuse them for their actions.

 

[BamaBrat]

That's like asking which is more influential: genetics or environment. Personal responsibility is a learned behavior. If someone is never taught how to be responsible, they can't be. And people who simply disregard childhood experiences with comments like "get over it" are ignorant. Our childhood experiences make us who we are. Some of us are simply more resilient than others. Those people tend to be more insensitive to environmental instability. Lucky them.

understood. But by that same sentiment... does that mean that if someone abuses his children because thats all he ever knew... he should be excused???

 

[BamaBrat]

BamaBrat, thanks for sharing your story.

thanks. Wasnt really meant to be story sharing moment ..LOL... but I was trying to get my point across and I tend to type like I think, scatterbrained at times.

 

[BamaBrat]

Reading some of the replies has given me a couple more thoughts to share. For the majority that have demons ( I have some as well) I personally believe that the modern psychotherapy can go too far rumaging around with the past. There is a use for it, but weekly visits to the shrink to keep rehashing events that were painful is not conducive to moving forward. Yeah, we have to deal with them to a degree, but y'know, sometimes the bad shyt that has happened to us just needs to be accepted. It happened, maybe through no fault of our own and now its done. Maybe it set us back big time, maybe it has lifetime consequences, but, we still move forward. Whenever I see some guy come back from the battlefield missing half his body and half of his friends and he finds a way to move foward, then damn it all if I can't too. Learn from our mistakes, learn from the shyt things that happened to us in the past and not repeat it. No need to keep reliving it over and over again, that ain't moving forward. Sometimes I wonder when something that happened early on that was so traumatic that people have a block of memory from it, maybe that is our minds way of not having to deal with it and be able to move forward. Dig that stuff up and its like being on a loop reliving the nightmare over and over again. Our minds bury stuff for a reason.

I think theres some merit to that. I had a friend who had... well she was really screwed up... and she went to a therapist for years. She saw him a lot over those years and never seemed to "get anywhere". They talked, she seemed to understand where her issues were stemming from and had the tools to deal with them... but thats where it stopped. She never, at least hadnt the last time i saw her, moved forward, just stayed stuck in "talking about it" mode. To me, it seemed easier for her to just say darn I have a sucky life, poor me, and not to say.... gee I had a sucky life so far, so lets make the rest of it better!

Im definitely not saying that I dont "understand" it... Im just sayin... there has got to come a time in life when its "your life" and "your choices" and whatever those decisions are, wherever they "come from" we need to take responsibility for them.

 

[Goshin]

I agree. But it is hard to tell who is trying and who isn't from an outside perspective. While someone viewing my life from the "outside" may believe that I am not trying, they would be wrong. The same goes for anyone else. You know- the whole "walk a mile in someone's shoes" analogy.




.

Well, that's true. I know someone who, for two decades, was viewed as "lazy" and "hypochondriac" and neurotic and etc by many who knew her, but she was finally diagnosed with fibromyalgia. As it turns out, fibromyalgia is a real disease and it can make it very very hard for a sufferer to be able to do much. In extreme cases they may stop leaving the house, due to severe pain and/or uncontrollable fatigue. A couple of her siblings came down with the same disorder later in life, and found out first hand that she wasn't fooling and wasn't crazy all those years when she was complaining about feeling terrible and having no energy.

 

[Alyssa]

Well, that's true. I know someone who, for two decades, was viewed as "lazy" and "hypochondriac" and neurotic and etc by many who knew her, but she was finally diagnosed with fibromyalgia. As it turns out, fibromyalgia is a real disease and it can make it very very hard for a sufferer to be able to do much. In extreme cases they may stop leaving the house, due to severe pain and/or uncontrollable fatigue. A couple of her siblings came down with the same disorder later in life, and found out first hand that she wasn't fooling and wasn't crazy all those years when she was complaining about feeling terrible and having no energy.

I wonder if any of those judgmental pricks bothered to apologize and acknowledge that they were wrong. Not likely. It really does suck being completely misunderstood.

understood. But by that same sentiment... does that mean that if someone abuses his children because thats all he ever knew... he should be excused???

No, not excused. But it does explain the behavior.

 

[00timh]

I wonder if any of those judgmental pricks bothered to apologize and acknowledge that they were wrong. Not likely. It really does suck being completely misunderstood.



No, not excused. But it does explain the behavior.

Eve I have read several of your posts on this subject here and on other forums. You tend to feel that more people have it better than you. That for starters is where a lot of your difficulty to lead a happy life come from. You can give all kinds of effort to solving a problem, but if what you are doing isn't working, then you need to put your effort into more effective avenues. You know the adage work smarter not harder... If it takes someone 80hrs a week to make the same money as most who work half as much, then the occupation is wrong, not the work ethic.

Wrong is wrong and needs to be fixed. The victim mentality and many who get swallowed up in it or give in to it has become a bigger problem in our society these days IMO. So many have a reason, excuse if you will to the things they do or can't do because of their past. Because I was abused as a child is always the biggest. One way or another, most of us had some hard times as a child. It might not always be physical beatings, it might not always be the obvious mental abuse. Its an easier excuse for those who did face the more obvious abuse or bad situations. Then there is always I was picked on as a child because I was fat, or skinny or whatever. The past is best used as a tool for learning, not as an excuse for continued bad decision making or bad behaviors. The reason for lack of success as an adult is not because of someones past as a child it is because they failed to learn the lessons or they overeact so much. IF they overreact, their life becomes a endless cycle of things they won't do, won't commit to or finding 180degree opposites of, which in turn can lead to the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of the problems they faced early on in life.

No one may know what you or anyone else has been through. It doesn't really matter. No one knows me or what I have been through either. What does matter is that I figured out how to get out of my own way. Actually, make that a present tense since I am still figuring it out. I have made some good progress over the last few years though. Yes, its been A LOT of hard work, harder than I have ever worked before. Its also the right work as well. That comes from trial and error, and accepting my limitations, discovering things I was good at that I hadn't realized (trail and error on that as well) soliciting advice from others (swallows the pride) Self pity or loathing is the only sure way for someone not to make their life a better life. And the choice is definetly A CHOICE that all can make regardless of their past or current circumstances.

 

[joko104]

Hmm. I was referring to those who don't even seem to try, to be specific. Not those that have hard-to-overcome issues.

I can't help it, I'm a fighter. I fight until there's no hope left, then I fight some more, just to be a stubborn bastard. It is my nature.

People are not logical creatures, they are emotional. The military came to accept that anyone can be broken with torture no matter how stubborn. Anyone can be broken with a bullwhip and being in terror is totally crippling, even physically. While I suspect that 90% of "he/she's abusive" by women or men is over stated, both women and men can be lead down an emotional path across time that breaks them. I know for certain that even the most stubborn and strong men can be broken into submission. Far moreso women and children.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

People are not logical creatures, they are emotional. The military came to accept that anyone can be broken with torture no matter how stubborn. Anyone can be broken with a bullwhip and being in terror is totally crippling, even physically. While I suspect that 90% of "he/she's abusive" by women or men is over stated, both women and men can be lead down an emotional path across time that breaks them. I know for certain that even the most stubborn and strong men can be broken into submission. Far moreso women and children.

Upon what do you base this?

Children? Maybe, based upon the fact that they don't have fully developed brains, and the least developed parts are the most important for maintaining integrity.

Women do. Believe it or not, women are not stupid or mentally fragile or inadequate. But thanks for the insinuation.

 

[Alyssa]

Eve I have read several of your posts on this subject here and on other forums. You tend to feel that more people have it better than you. That for starters is where a lot of your difficulty to lead a happy life come from. You can give all kinds of effort to solving a problem, but if what you are doing isn't working, then you need to put your effort into more effective avenues. You know the adage work smarter not harder... If it takes someone 80hrs a week to make the same money as most who work half as much, then the occupation is wrong, not the work ethic.

Wrong is wrong and needs to be fixed. The victim mentality and many who get swallowed up in it or give in to it has become a bigger problem in our society these days IMO. So many have a reason, excuse if you will to the things they do or can't do because of their past. Because I was abused as a child is always the biggest. One way or another, most of us had some hard times as a child. It might not always be physical beatings, it might not always be the obvious mental abuse. Its an easier excuse for those who did face the more obvious abuse or bad situations. Then there is always I was picked on as a child because I was fat, or skinny or whatever. The past is best used as a tool for learning, not as an excuse for continued bad decision making or bad behaviors. The reason for lack of success as an adult is not because of someones past as a child it is because they failed to learn the lessons or they overeact so much. IF they overreact, their life becomes a endless cycle of things they won't do, won't commit to or finding 180degree opposites of, which in turn can lead to the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of the problems they faced early on in life.

No one may know what you or anyone else has been through. It doesn't really matter. No one knows me or what I have been through either. What does matter is that I figured out how to get out of my own way. Actually, make that a present tense since I am still figuring it out. I have made some good progress over the last few years though. Yes, its been A LOT of hard work, harder than I have ever worked before. Its also the right work as well. That comes from trial and error, and accepting my limitations, discovering things I was good at that I hadn't realized (trail and error on that as well) soliciting advice from others (swallows the pride) Self pity or loathing is the only sure way for someone not to make their life a better life. And the choice is definetly A CHOICE that all can make regardless of their past or current circumstances.

You have a very one dimensional view of my opinions on this topic which isn't surprising. Basically, you've managed to boil everything I have said on the subject down to "you think other people have it better than you." And truthfully, I realize that there are many who have had it much worse than I have. I knew a girl several years ago who was gang raped as a child. She was much more ****ed up than me. So yeah I get it. There are those who have it worse. But I'm not sure why you bring that up here. My beef with Goshin's post wasn't him or anything he did. It was other people's judgmental attitude towards this woman who was in pain. And while she suffered, people just stepped over her and dismissed her. People do that too often.

 

[00timh]

You have a very one dimensional view of my opinions on this topic which isn't surprising. Basically, you've managed to boil everything I have said on the subject down to "you think other people have it better than you." And truthfully, I realize that there are many who have had it much worse than I have. I knew a girl several years ago who was gang raped as a child. She was much more ****ed up than me. So yeah I get it. There are those who have it worse. But I'm not sure why you bring that up here. My beef with Goshin's post wasn't him or anything he did. It was other people's judgmental attitude towards this woman who was in pain. And while she suffered, people just stepped over her and dismissed her. People do that too often.

Only my 1st paragraph was devoted to you. After that I discussed the subject in general terms of my opinions. I understand that people will often take harsh opions on people. but in the case of someone with fibromyalgia, still the same principle must exist. Deal with it and move on. It limits things people can do, but they do what they can and adjust their life accordingly. It doesn't matter what the circumstance is. I am not making light of what anyone has or has gone through, its the principle of what people must do to make their life a better life.

 

[Alyssa]

Deal with it and move on. Jeez. :roll: Spoken like someone who has no understanding of chronic pain.

 

[Goshin]

My beef with Goshin's post wasn't him or anything he did. It was other people's judgmental attitude towards this woman who was in pain. And while she suffered, people just stepped over her and dismissed her. People do that too often.

I understood your point.

They are certainly more sympathetic to her plight than they once were.