The Truth about Koran Abuse

[ShamMol]

They were desecrations of Christian memorabilia that the left fought tooth and nail to defend, saying that it was art. Now it's torture. "Well, whatever will make America look bad," that's become the attitude of too much of the left.

I am sure that there are people who were liberal who were on your side and those who weren't may have had somewhat of a point (though not much) if it was displayed as art (you never knows what passes for art). But I probably would have been offended if I was a Christian. I hope that an investigation would not make the US look bad, but I also think that the US will look bad for not having one.

There's also a lot of reports detailing the US's responsible practices. It's hard to argue against an impartial investigation because the idea of it always appeals to the public. At this point, my opposition is mostly on principle. I think that all these accusations are slaps in the face to all the people who do good work. And no matter how good the investigations turned out, some people (26X) would find a way to criticize our actions. So its a lose-lose situation.

I know there are people who do great work, but I also believe in my heart that there are people out there who do horrible work. I don't think it will hurt the good people to see the bad people go down and I think it would boost them to know they were morally right and that they were proved right. I don't think that people saying it is happening puts a damper on all people doing it, just puts one on the people who are proved to have done it. If the investigation proves that there is no abuse, great! I think it will help the US out a lot in the world, but I also believe that if there isn't one, people in the world will always wonder.

hahaha, I know. Truth be told, I liked the yanks more before they started winning so much...91-94 were the best years....good memories.

Yeah, I haven't watched the Sox as much as I used to now that I just know they will win. Still...gusfraba...

And, I am so glad you agree that it would do no harm and probably bolster your case ludahai because it is you that is needed in this world.

 

[RightinNYC]

They put on a much better case. You know, defense lawyers are the only thing that make the courts legitimate because without them, they would just be a rubber stamp for the prosecutors. And fyi, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, didn't know if you knew that or not...

I'm well aware. My point wasn't that they're not integral, but rather that not everything they say is a legal truth. They have an obvious agenda.

And we should have an investigation that is independent for the torturing of non-citizens, also known as enemy combatants. We could be following the Geneva Convention, we could be granting basic human rights. We could be doing a lot of things, and we should be doing a lot of things.

I agree, we should be protecting those rights. And by all credible sources, we are.

 

[RightinNYC]

I am sure that there are people who were liberal who were on your side and those who weren't may have had somewhat of a point (though not much) if it was displayed as art (you never knows what passes for art). But I probably would have been offended if I was a Christian. I hope that an investigation would not make the US look bad, but I also think that the US will look bad for not having one.

I know there are people who do great work, but I also believe in my heart that there are people out there who do horrible work. I don't think it will hurt the good people to see the bad people go down and I think it would boost them to know they were morally right and that they were proved right. I don't think that people saying it is happening puts a damper on all people doing it, just puts one on the people who are proved to have done it. If the investigation proves that there is no abuse, great! I think it will help the US out a lot in the world, but I also believe that if there isn't one, people in the world will always wonder.

I oppose the idea of an investigation because I know that no matter if 99% of all these allegations turn out to be proven false, the 1% that may have occurred will be latched onto by the left and the insurgents as proof that the US is a tyrannical dictatorship. And if all 100% of the allegations turned out to be false, then they would claim that it wasn't a fair investigation, and there was still a coverup.

If you balance the potential payoff with the risk, there's really no way you can justify doing it. And thankfully, the administration knows that.

 

[teacher]

Abusing Gitmo prisoners defies logic. All we have to do is render them to a foreign land, let them do the dirty work, we get our answers and come out smelling sweet. Any actual abuse at Gitmo will be some individual dumb ass not following orders. The leaders know the stakes here and won't risk the huge black eye associated with sanctioned abuse. I can understand the lefts wishful thinking but sooner or later you have to face reality. Am I the only veteran on this site because some of the posts really illustrate the ignorance of how the military works. Not calling names but when some don't know yet still post these tyrannical conspiracies it really become laughable the size of the "not a clue" pointing at you. Let me put it like this. If a military person in trouble said it was on orders then you know it was BS because if it WAS on orders that person would never have a chance to say that where anyone could hear. From Private to General. You think Condi and Rumi got together and decided on naked twister? No, those dumb asses violated their special orders and will pay dearly for it. As it should be. Class dismissed.

 

[ShamMol]

I oppose the idea of an investigation because I know that no matter if 99% of all these allegations turn out to be proven false, the 1% that may have occurred will be latched onto by the left and the insurgents as proof that the US is a tyrannical dictatorship. And if all 100% of the allegations turned out to be false, then they would claim that it wasn't a fair investigation, and there was still a coverup.

If you balance the potential payoff with the risk, there's really no way you can justify doing it. And thankfully, the administration knows that.

Well, that 1% of abuse should not be happening period. And we won't know about that 1% unless there is an investigation. And that 1% won't be stopped unless we have an investigation.

If it was a bipartisan and independent investigation, then we would have no reason to complain if it did not render the results we wanted. I for one would accept the results. I see it as necessary to have an investigation for two major reasons. One-to prove that we do not abuse. And then two-if we do indeed have soldiers who abuse prisoners to rectify the situation and prove to the world we do what we believe. I don't see this as a partisan issue, I see it as a straight-up human rights issue. If we don't abuse and the investigation proves that, GREAT! I will love America even more than I do now. If there is some abuse, I want the situation known about and taken care of by whatever is decided upon by the investigatory panel.

 

[akyron]

AI Report

Do I think it was partisan? Hell no. It was saying what it thinks as usual and doesn't do anything to hurt its credibility in my humble opinion. I would not have used that phrase, but it doesn't change what is said there. The problem is that all we have is allegations because the government won't allow a non-partisan independent investigation of all US abuse of prisoners in the world. I hold them to quite a high standard and found they wrote a wonderful report about the abuse and detailed all their claims quite well. What lies did they tell? None. They told what they found in their investigation and used one bad phrase. Whoop-di-doo, I use bad phrases all the time, we all do. They were right to publish the report because it gave an account of what they saw in their investigation and thus had a responsibility to share those findings with the members and community around them.

Uhh. It was obviously partisan. They recanted their statements.
What investigation?
There was no credible evidence presented.
What they did was incite more division with unfounded accusations.

You guys are Charlie Brown and the media is Lucy.
Don't go for the ball. Just don't.

 

[ShamMol]

Uhh. It was obviously partisan. They recanted their statements.
What investigation?
There was no credible evidence presented.
What they did was incite more division with unfounded accusations.

You guys are Charlie Brown and the media is Lucy.
Don't go for the ball. Just don't.

Once again, I didn't understand the words that come from your finger tips. The investigation we are talking about is one taht should happen. Blah, blah blah, division.

Here is a suggestion, read the posts before answering this.

Oh, and if you were a part of AI, you would know that its goal is not to promote a partisan agenda (though it may seem it at times) but instead to fight against waht it sees as human rights abuses. But of course, calling an administration evil who they think is evil because of those abuses is partisan even though they would do it to Democrats as well...oh well, some people never listen or understand what we are about.

 

[teacher]

You guys are Charlie Brown and the media is Lucy.
Don't go for the ball. Just don't.

(In the voice of Marv Albert) Yes.

 

[akyron]

Once again, I didn't understand the words that come from your finger tips. The investigation we are talking about is one taht should happen. Blah, blah blah, division.

Here is a suggestion, read the posts before answering this.

Oh, and if you were a part of AI, you would know that its goal is not to promote a partisan agenda (though it may seem it at times) but instead to fight against waht it sees as human rights abuses. But of course, calling an administration evil who they think is evil because of those abuses is partisan even though they would do it to Democrats as well...oh well, some people never listen or understand what we are about.

So what is there to spend millions of dollars to investigate?
What credible evidence of anything has been brought to light to warrant this.
The Osama manual says this is exactly what is supposed to happen.
Get caught and cry wolf.

 

[ShamMol]

So what is there to spend millions of dollars to investigate?
What credible evidence of anything has been brought to light to warrant this.
The Osama manual says this is exactly what is supposed to happen.
Get caught and cry wolf.

I am not going to waste my time with you. Here is an old post of mine for your enjoyment and pleasure.

"I know there are people who do great work, but I also believe in my heart that there are people out there who do horrible work. I don't think it will hurt the good people to see the bad people go down and I think it would boost them to know they were morally right and that they were proved right. I don't think that people saying it is happening puts a damper on all people doing it, just puts one on the people who are proved to have done it. If the investigation proves that there is no abuse, great! I think it will help the US out a lot in the world, but I also believe that if there isn't one, people in the world will always wonder."

But that's not all. Let's double your pleasure. Honestly, I just don't want to waste my time with you. At least with RightatNYU, he gives me something to think about, you...you just don't even have a clue.

"Well, that 1% of abuse should not be happening period. And we won't know about that 1% unless there is an investigation. And that 1% won't be stopped unless we have an investigation.

If it was a bipartisan and independent investigation, then we would have no reason to complain if it did not render the results we wanted. I for one would accept the results. I see it as necessary to have an investigation for two major reasons. One-to prove that we do not abuse. And then two-if we do indeed have soldiers who abuse prisoners to rectify the situation and prove to the world we do what we believe. I don't see this as a partisan issue, I see it as a straight-up human rights issue. If we don't abuse and the investigation proves that, GREAT! I will love America even more than I do now. If there is some abuse, I want the situation known about and taken care of by whatever is decided upon by the investigatory panel."

 

[RightinNYC]

Well, that 1% of abuse should not be happening period. And we won't know about that 1% unless there is an investigation. And that 1% won't be stopped unless we have an investigation.

If it was a bipartisan and independent investigation, then we would have no reason to complain if it did not render the results we wanted. I for one would accept the results. I see it as necessary to have an investigation for two major reasons. One-to prove that we do not abuse. And then two-if we do indeed have soldiers who abuse prisoners to rectify the situation and prove to the world we do what we believe. I don't see this as a partisan issue, I see it as a straight-up human rights issue. If we don't abuse and the investigation proves that, GREAT! I will love America even more than I do now. If there is some abuse, I want the situation known about and taken care of by whatever is decided upon by the investigatory panel.

Honest truth?

I don't think that even if there was that 1% of the cases, which I doubt, that all of this would be worth the investigation. I think that no matter what the report concluded, it would be used as ammo against the US.

Look at the Koran report. It explained exactly what happened, basically cleared the US military of ANY sort of disrespect toward the Koran, and painted a picture of a military that went out of its way to be respectful and acted swiftly against those who stepped out of line.

Yet go over to Democratic Underground, and you'll find hundreds and hundreds of posts from people claiming that this report proved the US abused prisoners and that soldiers "pissed all over" the Koran regularly. No matter what the truth of the matter, ignorant people will take things and spin them toward what they want to hear. The only way you can avoid that happening is by ignoring them. This effect is enhanced in a community of like minded people such as the circle-jerk over at DU, or the middle east.

This is the reason why there hasn't been further investigation into Abu Ghirab, and the reason why there WONT be an investigation into Guantanamo. Because even if the report confirmed that the vast, vast majority of US soldiers acted responsibly, it would confirm that a few did not. And to those communities, that would be the only thing they would hear.

This would have an overall negative effect on the US troops and image, and would far outweigh the benefits gained from investigating the situation. It's the sad truth, but it's the truth.

There won't be an investigation, and eventually it will fall by the wayside like Abu-Ghiraib did, remembered only by people protesting the war.

 

[ShamMol]

Honest truth?
I don't think that even if there was that 1% of the cases, which I doubt, that all of this would be worth the investigation. I think that no matter what the report concluded, it would be used as ammo against the US.

Well, that is your opinion, and I have mine, and neither will be proved without an investigationm

Look at the Koran report. It explained exactly what happened, basically cleared the US military of ANY sort of disrespect toward the Koran, and painted a picture of a military that went out of its way to be respectful and acted swiftly against those who stepped out of line.

Honestly, I don't believe parts of that report, mabye I watch too much John Stewart, but one of the abuses sounded like a punch line. The **** blew onto the Quaran.

Yet go over to Democratic Underground, and you'll find hundreds and hundreds of posts from people claiming that this report proved the US abused prisoners and that soldiers "pissed all over" the Koran regularly. No matter what the truth of the matter, ignorant people will take things and spin them toward what they want to hear. The only way you can avoid that happening is by ignoring them. This effect is enhanced in a community of like minded people such as the circle-jerk over at DU, or the middle east.

I don't go there, I think that their site is not credible and should only be taken at face value and at entertainment at best (but read the hate letters, those are hilarious).

This is the reason why there hasn't been further investigation into Abu Ghirab, and the reason why there WONT be an investigation into Guantanamo. Because even if the report confirmed that the vast, vast majority of US soldiers acted responsibly, it would confirm that a few did not. And to those communities, that would be the only thing they would hear.

I agree that there most likely won't be an investigation for exactly that reason. I agree completely. But, that doesn't mean that I don't want one and think one is appropriate.

This would have an overall negative effect on the US troops and image, and would far outweigh the benefits gained from investigating the situation. It's the sad truth, but it's the truth.

See, this is where I just can't agree. People will realize that it isn't all the US troops (well, we can't account for those who are ignorant) and is in fact just a few bad apples if it is proved that way. But I think that right now, without the investigation there is a perception that the military is covering something up and that does reflect badly imo. I would hope for the investigation to clear the name of those soldiers who had absolutely nothing to do with the sad situation and punish those who did.

There won't be an investigation, and eventually it will fall by the wayside like Abu-Ghiraib did, remembered only by people protesting the war.

As you said "Sad but true." It doesn't mean I can't hope. And I don't see this as a war issue, I see this as a pure human rights issue completely seperate from the war in iraq, Afghan, or against terrorists in general. I see this as another instance where rights fall by the wayside in the face of expediency.

 

[akyron]

"Well, that 1% of abuse should not be happening period. And we won't know about that 1% unless there is an investigation. And that 1% won't be stopped unless we have an investigation.
"

I can agree with the first part but what about prison systems all over the world?
Why is this place so special? Everything is already videotaped and documented meticulously.
Should we suddenly launch massive investigations into prisons in general? I have never been to prison but I am pretty sure they are not in place to entertain the inhabitants and make sure they have a good time in general.

While we are at it lets fund massive investigations into finding evidence of Atlantis, Ghosts, Reincarnation, and Bigfoot.



In the same report that found that there were some incidents where the Koran was not treated with respect by guards or other American personnel there are fifteen incidents where prisoners treated the Koran far worse:

a. On 19 NOV 02, a detainee used his Koran as a pillow while he lay in his cell. The guards on duty recorded this incident in the electronic blotter.
b. On 11 MAY 03, a guard observed a detainee rip up his Koran and state he was no longer a Muslim. The guard recorded the incident contemporaneously in a sworn statement.
c. On 14 MAY 03, a guard observed a detainee rip his Koran into small pieces. The guard recorded the incident contemporaneously in a sworn statement.
d. On 5 JUN 03, a guard observed two detainees accuse a third detainee of not being a man. In response, the detainee urinated on one of their Korans. The detainees resided in adjacent cells. The event was recorded in FBI FD-302s, on 5 JUN 03 and 19 JUN 03.
e. On 17 JUN 03, a detainee began to laugh as the detainees near him prayed. He asked for the Sergeant of the Guard and an interpreter. When they arrived he threw his Koran around his cell. Then he requested that the interpreter place his Koran in the box each detainee has above his cell in order to offend the rest of the block. Guard personnel recorded the detainee’s actions in the electronic blotter system.
f. On 24 JUN 03, a guard observed a detainee rip his Koran and throw it out of his cell. The guard recorded the incident contemporaneously in a sworn statement.
g. On 26 JUL 03, a detainee threw his Koran on his cell floor. Detainees residing near him complained to the guards about his actions and he was moved to a different cell. Guard personnel recorded the detainee’s actions in the electronic blotter system.
h. On 5 DEC 03, two detainees complained to a guard that a third detainee had urinated in their cells to prevent them from praying. The first two detainees resided in the cells adjacent to the third detainee at the time. They stated that when they tried to pray or read the Koran, the third detainee spat and threw urine on them. The first two detainees were subsequently moved to different cells. Guard personnel recorded these actions and the relocation of the two detainees in the electronic blotter system.
i. On 23 FEB 04, a guard observed a detainee place two Korans in his toilet and state he no longer cared about the Koran or his religion. Five minutes later, after the detainee retrieved the Korans, he ripped several pages out of one Koran and threw the pages on the floor. Then he placed both Korans on the sink. The guard recorded the incident contemporaneously in a sworn statement.
j. On 22 MAR 04, guard personnel observed a detainee tear the cover off of his Koran while inside his cell. The incident was recorded in the electronic blotter system.
k. On 28 MAR 04, a detainee asked a guard to move a second detainee because he was throwing urine on the first detainee’s Koran. The guard recorded the first detainee’s request in the electronic blotter system. We have been unable to verify if the detainee was moved as requested.
l. On 21 SEP 04, an unknown guard conducted a routine search of a detainee’s cell. During the search the guard discovered that the detainee had ripped out pages of his Koran. The detainee used tape from the Koran binding to secure the Koran pages over the vent to keep the air from coming into his cell. The incident was recorded in the electronic blotter system.
m. On 19 JAN 05, a detainee tore up his Koran and tried to flush it down the toilet. Four guards witnessed the incident and it was recorded in the electronic blotter system.
n. On 23 JAN 05, a detainee ripped pages out of his Koran and threw them down the toilet. The detainee stated he did so because he wanted to be moved to another camp. Four guards witnessed the incident and it was recorded in the electronic blotter system.
o. On 18 FEB 05, a detainee ripped up his Koran and handed it to a guard. The detainee stated he had given up on being a Muslim. Several other guards witnessed the incident and it was recorded in the electronic blotter system.

Let the outrage and killings begin.

 

[akyron]

Oh, and if you were a part of AI, you would know that its goal is not to promote a partisan agenda (though it may seem it at times) but instead to fight against waht it sees as human rights abuses. But of course, calling an administration evil who they think is evil because of those abuses is partisan even though they would do it to Democrats as well...oh well, some people never listen or understand what we are about.

Making irresponsible accusations with no credible evidence....ok.
Let us see how many muslims kill each other in unwarranted protest.
Hopefully Charlie Brown will not take a swing at the proffered football....this time.

AI is a good group and they deserve credit for their ultimate goals but this was horseapples.

 

[ShamMol]

Making irresponsible accusations with no credible evidence....ok.
Let us see how many muslims kill each other in unwarranted protest.
Hopefully Charlie Brown will not take a swing at the proffered football....this time.

AI is a good group and they deserve credit for their ultimate goals but this was horseapples.

Please, I beg of you to read the report. At the bottom there is a listing of souces which are too numerous to post here. That is not "no credible evidence," in fact it is quite a lot of it. And stop using stupid little cliche sentences that my poor liberal mind can't understand, please.

AI is a great group who wrote a great report, who included one sentence too many. Even Bush has made statements that he wishes he could take back, or simple sentences as well.

 

[walrus]

Ok, this will be a long one. Lots to respond to.

Oh and walrus, this is the second post I responded to of yours, please answer the last one as well.

Sorry, didn't realize I was obligated. I have a job and a wife. Until this forum either starts paying me or giving me orgasms you might have to wait a day or two for a response.

The Contracting States shall accord to refugees within their territories treatment at least as favourable as that accorded to their nationals with respect to freedom to practise their religion and freedom as regards the religious education of their children.

In what way would the people whom we are discussing (or illegal immigrants for that matter) be considered refugees?

Are we so Darwainistic as to say that, hey, they aren't ours, so we won't accord them what we would want if we were captured? They are human beings. We have the duty to afford them the right to legal cousel and to let them debunk the case against them. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

As it stands now we accord them far better than we recieve when we are captured under any definition.

Many Western European legal systems do not recognize "innocent until proven guilty" in many cases (including Britian). Therefore, it must not be a universal right.

You are just jealous you don't have a cool paint picture too

I'm sorry, but my picture of the guy hanging out of the ear is much cooler.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head...but it wasn't every administrations goal to force feed their brand of freedom to the world...oh wait, what were those years when we held up dictators because they weren't communist or socialist...oh yeah, let's just forget about those years

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". It doesn't always work, it makes for strange bedfellows, and it is choosing between two evils - but it is also the way of the world.

Over-vigorous interrogation practices...wow. That is what the younglings are calling torture these days. It does undermine our credibility to say they are hurting others when in fact we are doing it ourselves and saying it is our right to do so.

I was so pleased to be called a "youngling" that I almost left this alone. You are right, calling what happened "over-vigourous interrogation" is every bit as hyperbolic and misleading as calling it "torture".

How bout this, we always give the right of due process to immigrants who are arrested. That enough, or do I have to waste my time and look it up?

Please, please look it up - as this is neither affirmed case law nor a Constitutional reference as I asked. This country does many things which I feel violate the intent of the Constitution - pointing one out does not put it in there.

What a horrible thing to write. You're saying that you're just fine with us not doing what we should to treat people the way we want to be treated. That makes YOU the morally equal to our enemies, good going!

Thanks! And if our prisoners were treated no worse than those at Gitmo I would have no complaints.

It really is hard to be so wrong so often

And yet you are so good at it. I know it's hard, but I really admire your perserverance.

Not only are you morally deficient you're also factually misguided

And all this time I thought I was factually deficient and morally misguided. Thanks for clearing that up!

In my part of America you are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like where you live. Our laws DO cover everyone, not just the people you choose!

And just as soon as these people become American citizens, commit a crime in America, and enter the American criminal justice system I will be right on board with you.

YIKES!

People really still say "Yikes"? I thought that died with "drat".

This makes strike three....UGH! If we offer rewards and the people claiming them are turning in THEIR (not OUR) enemies simply to cash in, that is unfair, that is crap, and that is what's happened! Maybe you do not have the ability the differentiate between the two, which is very sad for you.

Ugh? Do you speak in guttural bellows with an occasional "Yikes" thrown in or is that just for effect? Actually, I do have the ability to differentiate - so cheer up! Again, paying informants is the way of the world everywhere except in your la-la land where everyone is nice and fair and kind except Americans.

I loved that picture

I'm sure you did. It was colourful, shiny, and easy to understand.

So the fact that of the over 500 detainees in Gitmo have been held now for 3+ years and only FOUR have been charged! None have been tried. Are you telling me this is American justice?

Apparently it is in this case.

Depsite what you think, even the detainees are INNOCENT until proven guilty.

I offer you the same challenge I offer ShamMol - prove it with Constitutional references or affirmed case law.

Only feeble minded people believe otherwise, and their belief is flat out wrong according to our laws.

Name-calling. The last refuge of mediocrity.

Strike FOUR! Thank GOD that your way of thinking is not the law of the land nor the principles that we as Americans believe in. What you've written is pure, unadulterated bullshit. As an American and as a citizen of the Earth I find what you wrote to be evil.

Do you ever actually put together a reasoned argument, or is your life just one continuous "Just cause I said so" story? Who are these "we" as Americans? I know of plenty of people who agree with me, some right on this forum. Or are you the sole arbiter of Americanism? On the plus side, I've never been called evil before - so that is a new experience. I think I might invest in black clothing. And don't you know that obscenity in rational debate is a sign of a weak (or feeble if you prefer) mind?

 

[ShamMol]

Sorry, didn't realize I was obligated. I have a job and a wife. Until this forum either starts paying me or giving me orgasms you might have to wait a day or two for a response.

I was hoping you would see the first one. I have a job as well, but luckily for me, I have a laptop there to chekc on my forums that I run (and post on others)

In what way would the people whom we are discussing (or illegal immigrants for that matter) be considered refugees?

The section above that details what I meant to say, sorry for misquoting.

As it stands now we accord them far better than we recieve when we are captured under any definition.

That doesn't matter. We should be a cut above the other societies and show the world the right way to do it. We can't say don't abuse people and then go out and do it.

Many Western European legal systems do not recognize "innocent until proven guilty" in many cases (including Britian). Therefore, it must not be a universal right.

Its a right here. Its a human right in the definition of US human rights, and thus we have a human responsibility to give them to those we even hate to show that is what we truely believe and practice.

I'm sorry, but my picture of the guy hanging out of the ear is much cooler.

Note the sarcasm.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". It doesn't always work, it makes for strange bedfellows, and it is choosing between two evils - but it is also the way of the world.

I agree, you just made my point that you were wrong in saying we have always wanted freedom. And in fact, by giving aid to those people, we were denying freedom...quite a lot.

I was so pleased to be called a "youngling" that I almost left this alone. You are right, calling what happened "over-vigourous interrogation" is every bit as hyperbolic and misleading as calling it "torture".

You do know that I was saying this very sarcastically, right? I think it is flat out torture and was amazed others were calling it over-vigorous.

Please, please look it up - as this is neither affirmed case law nor a Constitutional reference as I asked. This country does many things which I feel violate the intent of the Constitution - pointing one out does not put it in there.

This is me rambling off stuff from my AP book. The Supreme Court has held in Plyler v. Doe, that the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment " 'are universal in their application, to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction ...' ", but this proposition was used only by the Court to not penalize the children of illegal immigrants in the context of public education. The opinion cannot be read to stand for the proposition that the Bill of Rights apply to citizens and noncitizens in precisely the same way - especially in the foreign affairs context like we presently confront. Under our Constitution, certain rights are afforded only to "citizens." But in the area of civil liberties, which generally refer to those rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, the Constitution does not make distinctions based upon citizenship status, but guarantees certain basic rights to all "persons."

And this also garuntees some rights for noncitizens in Gitmo. "In Rasul vs. Bush, the court clearly recognized the rights noncitizens held in Guantanamo to challenge the legality of their continued confinement. "Aliens held (in Guantanamo), no less than American citizens, are entitled to invoke the federal courts' authority," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the majority."

Thanks! And if our prisoners were treated no worse than those at Gitmo I would have no complaints.

We can't just say others are treating them badly so thus we will. What would that make us? Are we not a cut above those countries? Do we not recognize human rights as they are?

I won't anwer what 26x should I guess. But just to let you know...

And yet you are so good at it. I know it's hard, but I really admire your perserverance.

Someone ironically said the exact same thing.

 

[walrus]

Note to 26X - this is what reasoned debate between adults is supposed to look like. Thanks ShamMol.

Its a right here. Its a human right in the definition of US human rights, and thus we have a human responsibility to give them to those we even hate to show that is what we truely believe and practice.

I agree, you just made my point that you were wrong in saying we have always wanted freedom. And in fact, by giving aid to those people, we were denying freedom...quite a lot.

Ah, but I merely said we always tried to sell freedom. There is a subtle difference. We want freedom (or friendly governments, which isn't always the same thing) because it serves our interests as a nation. We supported Bin Ladin because a Soviet Afghanistan was a clear and present danger to our country, and he was willing to fight the Soviets for us. I never claimed we do these things to benefit the citizens of that particular nation. We do it because it benefits our nation (at least in theory).

You do know that I was saying this very sarcastically, right? I think it is flat out torture and was amazed others were calling it over-vigorous.

You really believe what went on in Gitmo was torture? I say again, that shows a lack of imagination (which in this case may be a positive sign for you and a negative one for me - but then again, I'm evil).

This is me rambling off stuff from my AP book. The Supreme Court has held in Plyler v. Doe ... wrote for the majority."
We can't just say others are treating them badly so thus we will. What would that make us? Are we not a cut above those countries? Do we not recognize human rights as they are?

Thanks for looking it up. I still don't agree, and I will still argue that this is not the intent of the Constitution. Again, I see no comparison between the scandal at Gitmo and the treatment Jihadis regularly give the captured. I do agree that we should attempt to stay on the high ground, but I also don't think Gitmo took us off of it.

Let me make this plain, I do not approve of some of what went on at Gitmo. POW's are not criminals by definition. They should be treated fairly and returned to their home nation as soon as it is safe to do so (and as soon as we can be assured that they will not take up arms again). This has given America a tremendous black eye, although in my opinion that eye is much blacker than is warranted by the deed. But do some of you really think America/Bush is this evil? If we really wanted to hold people indefinitely (or make them disappear) I have full faith that my government could do it in such a way that I would never be the wiser. How hard is it to make people disappear in the middle of a war zone? Why bring them ninety miles off shore, onto what is technically American soil in order to do your dirty work? If we were truly interested in torturing people, it would be going on in some bunker deep in Iraq and Newsweek, the NYT, and CNN would know nothing about it for decades - if ever.

I may be a conservative, but I'm an extremely cynical one.

 

[ShamMol]

Note to 26X - this is what reasoned debate between adults is supposed to look like. Thanks ShamMol.

I believe that he is a little older than me... :shock:

Ah, but I merely said we always tried to sell freedom. There is a subtle difference. We want freedom (or friendly governments, which isn't always the same thing) because it serves our interests as a nation. We supported Bin Ladin because a Soviet Afghanistan was a clear and present danger to our country, and he was willing to fight the Soviets for us. I never claimed we do these things to benefit the citizens of that particular nation. We do it because it benefits our nation (at least in theory).

ALright, I get the point. We always want friendly governments and I believe that we sometimes value that over the ideal of freedom. I guess the best current day example would be Pakistan who "serves our interests" in the war on terror. So, yes, I agree that we like to promote freedom, but sometimes don't in order to...create national security favorable to us.

You really believe what went on in Gitmo was torture? I say again, that shows a lack of imagination (which in this case may be a positive sign for you and a negative one for me - but then again, I'm evil).

You aren't evil, you just have seen too much in the world. I am young, naive, and prone to hope the best but fear the worst. I really, really hope what is happening isn't torture, and just want it proven to me. The only way I see that we wouldn't have bickering is to have an independent bipartisan panel set up by Congress or the President to look into all abuses that may or may not have happened. I think that is the only way I believe we will know.

Thanks for looking it up. I still don't agree, and I will still argue that this is not the intent of the Constitution. Again, I see no comparison between the scandal at Gitmo and the treatment Jihadis regularly give the captured. I do agree that we should attempt to stay on the high ground, but I also don't think Gitmo took us off of it.

That case was just one example, but we do afford citizens and non-citizens certain rights taht are the same, such as those garunteed by the 14th Amm. I am tending to believe that the vast majority of treatment is quite similar, but I also tend to believe that there is some abuse of prisoners in control at Gitmo and other prisons like it (see the AI report, it details the number of other prisons) and would like to know for sure.

I don't, however, think it is a matter of attempting to stay on the high ground, but rather knowing that we are the cut above and that we are superior and we would know it. We should always be the cut above, not merely attempt to do so and let it fall by the wayside when political expediency and national security (unfortunately) require it.

Let me make this plain, I do not approve of some of what went on at Gitmo. POW's are not criminals by definition. They should be treated fairly and returned to their home nation as soon as it is safe to do so (and as soon as we can be assured that they will not take up arms again). This has given America a tremendous black eye, although in my opinion that eye is much blacker than is warranted by the deed. But do some of you really think America/Bush is this evil? If we really wanted to hold people indefinitely (or make them disappear) I have full faith that my government could do it in such a way that I would never be the wiser. How hard is it to make people disappear in the middle of a war zone? Why bring them ninety miles off shore, onto what is technically American soil in order to do your dirty work? If we were truly interested in torturing people, it would be going on in some bunker deep in Iraq and Newsweek, the NYT, and CNN would know nothing about it for decades - if ever.

Oh, trust me, I agree with you that this has given America a black eye, blacker than it deserves. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, at Gitmo, or elsewhere. In the AI report, there is a chart that details where prisoners and suspected prisoners are being held all over the world, far outnumbering those that are held soley at Gitmo. So, in a sense, Gitmo is the whipping boy taking all the blame while we have prisoners all over the place receiving the same or worse treatment without our knowledge. So, in a sense, your government may be doing exactly what you want them to do, which is making you "never be the wiser" about the true treatment. But, let me stress, I hope this doesn't happen, and if it does, I would want it exposed by a investigatory commission.

I may be a conservative, but I'm an extremely cynical one.

Almost an oxymoron, but not quite. I love the quote in your sig btw, great quote from a great man. But that doesn't mean I agree, lol.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Anyways, it surprises you that a lawyer for the detainees would be claiming that they have rights? You take anything a defense lawyer says as fact? Then I guess they best be letting Michael go right about now...

My dear Sgt. Shaw, the "defense" attorneys in question are military officers who are also lawyers. They are not outside independent lawyers. They are military personnel. Get it? They know military law, they know the rights afforded even to our prisoners at Gitmo.

How do you reconcile that of the more than 500 prisoners STILL there only 4 have been charged? Is this American justice? Do you think it makes America look good to take prisoners and deny them even to be charged?

I will stop suggesting that you, Sgt. Shaw have the Queen of Hearts in your deep psyche as soon as you at least acknowledge that we should treat people, even our most hated enemies, with respect and dignity. To not do so is UN-American, and it makes America weak. As a nation we will be stronger by always doing the right thing, even if the right thing means treating our enemy better than they treat us.

For some of you to suggest that our enemies are undeserving of fair treatment makes you, those who feel that way, an enemy of the USA and all we stand for, and all we are fighting for.

Are you with me Sgt. Shaw?

 

[ludahai]

How do you reconcile that of the more than 500 prisoners STILL there only 4 have been charged? Is this American justice? Do you think it makes America look good to take prisoners and deny them even to be charged?

Would you rather do what was done with illegal combatants during World War II? THey were lined up and shot, no trial, no charges, no wait. Just shot on the spot!

 

[26 X World Champs]

Would you rather do what was done with illegal combatants during World War II? THey were lined up and shot, no trial, no charges, no wait. Just shot on the spot!

Here's a unique idea for you, apparently one that you've yet to consider? Treating prisoners the way we want our prisoners treated?

Why are you having such a difficult time grasping onto the concept that America should never condone any mistreatment of anyone, including prisoners? Did you miss that day in school?

 

[akyron]

I read the report in its entirety and it is riddled with phrases like

may have been subjected to torture
may have resulted in the detainee’s death
may have been involved in a conspiracy
crimes may have been committed
recent case of an individual who may have "disappeared" in US custody.
medical personnel may have attempted to cover-up the abuse
"medical personnel may have attempted to misrepresent the circumstances of death
whereabouts remain unknown
Name:unknown
unknown location.
Unknown: estimated at scores of detainees
Unknown: estimated at 40 detainees
Unknown: estimated at several thousand detainees
Unknown: estimated at 100 to 150 detainees
Partisan commentary:the President – who apparently believes that there are people who are "not legally entitled" to humane treatment(8)
overarching war mentality adopted by the US administration
unknown number of detainees in secret incommunicado custody in unknown locations and unknown conditions-
Yes of course they have to have somebody we don't know somewhere we have no idea torturing them for Mohamed knows what information!
Oh we don't know about that either.

In an over 150 page report (yes I was bored and read the whole thing)
The word allege or alleged is used almost 200 times the word proven is used 3 times(and not a single time in reference to alleging US torture).

Much of the testimony was hearsay from detainees.
Captives told to claim torture
A directive lists one mission as "spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy."
If captured, the manual states, "At the beginning of the trial ... the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by state security before the judge. Complain of mistreatment while in prison."
The handbook instructs commanders to make sure operatives, or "brothers," understand what to say if captured.
"Prior to executing an operation, the commander should instruct his soldiers on what to say if they are captured," the document says. "He should explain that more than once in order to ensure that they have assimilated it. They should, in turn, explain it back to the commander."





Wow, we really need to get out of this business. It is a no win situation.
Keep them out of play and the world bitches. Let them go and they shoot at you.Released Detainees Rejoining The Fight
"he has bragged that he tricked his U.S. interrogators into believing he was someone else. "

What we need to do is completely outsource the detaining of these guys.
Where ever they go they need to be charged or released.
I can understand some of the classified charges of some of these guys.
The release of some of these guys or even the public release of certain charges will alert terrorist cells currently under surveillance but this is one hot potato issue.

US soldiers are not meant to be prison guards for extensive periods of time.

If they cannot be charged the prisoners need to be released where they can be justifiably dealt with on the battlefield.
The problem I have with that is US soldiers/civilians may be injured or worse.


I have changed my mind a little but with reservations.
I partially agree there should be a thorough investigation of procedures by an independent honorable party(not liberal wackos) in order to refute or confirm reported tortures and for all parties to be held accountable for their actions.
I say partially agree because backseat driving and political second guessing is what brought about unnecessary problems in Vietnam.



I like the idea of the all women swat team sent in to deal with the more violent prisoners. I was amused at the religious irony.

I learned a new word:Rapporteurs

 

[ShamMol]

I am going to assume that what is in italics is you talking.

I read the report in its entirety and it is riddled with phrases like...

Yes, of course it is, wanna know why? This may be the no sleep talking, but becasue they can't know because an investigation that is credible hasn't taken place! Oh, and note, he did say stuff like that. He feels they are not obligated to follow GC morality because that doesn't apply to them and that we can do anything we want because they are just combatants. Give me a break. Human rights are human rights to be given to all.

Yes of course they have to have somebody we don't know somewhere we have no idea torturing them for Mohamed knows what information!
Oh we don't know about that either.

For Mohemad knows what information? Little racist are we? That is truth, and the truth hurts, we don't know and won't until there is an investigation.

In an over 150 page report (yes I was bored and read the whole thing)
The word allege or alleged is used almost 200 times the word proven is used 3 times(and not a single time in reference to alleging US torture).

I read it because I was interested. The problem with their argument is that they don't have much hard evidence. But again, I hark back to the point that they couldn't have much anyways because there hasn't been a credible investigation and because security is so tight that they couldn't get it if they tried to (which actually I am thankful for because if they could penetrate that prison, I would be worried for our national security).

Much of the testimony was hearsay from detainees.

Sorry to sound very young and immature, but duh. That's all they have because there hasn't been a release of information via an investigation that is credible (because the Pentagon's self-investigation will never be credible in the eyes of the public, there is a reason why Congress has oversight-because they can't be trusted to regulate themselves).

Wow, we really need to get out of this business. It is a no win situation.
Keep them out of play and the world bitches. Let them go and they shoot at you.

You know, we could hold them, but..you know...here is an interesting concept...not torture them...yeah, that could work...We could prove that we don't torture them by allowing actual oversight and not a white wash presentation whenever Congresspeopel come to visit. We could do a lot of things we aren't doing, most importantly having a investigation into abuses worldwide.

What we need to do is completely outsource the detaining of these guys.
Where ever they go they need to be charged or released.
I can understand some of the classified charges of some of these guys.
The release of some of these guys or even the public release of certain charges will alert terrorist cells currently under surveillance but this is one hot potato issue.

Insert explicative here. Honestly, what do you think we are doing. Look to that handy little chart in the AI report and tell me how many people are suspected to be outsourced to other countries. Oops.

US soldiers are not meant to be prison guards for extensive periods of time.

Agreed. They become restless and become prone to do things that, in my humble opinion, is not becoming of soldiers and Americans.

If they cannot be charged the prisoners need to be released where they can be justifiably dealt with on the battlefield.
The problem I have with that is US soldiers/civilians may be injured or worse.

Wait, you lost me with that last part... But honestly, I don't wish death upon anyone, but apparently, the American thirst for Vengeance runs strong with you.

I have changed my mind a little but with reservations.
I partially agree there should be a thorough investigation of procedures by an independent honorable party(not liberal wackos) in order to refute or confirm reported tortures and for all parties to be held accountable for their actions.
I say partially agree because backseat driving and political second guessing is what brought about unnecessary problems in Vietnam.

Unecessary problems in Vietnam. Unfortunately, I haven't studied that in depth nor witnessed it, so I can't comment. I think that an independent bipartisan investagory commission should be set up, much like the 9-11 comission, to investigate this. That way, we won't have liberal wackos as you put it (which I take offense at) or conservative bastards (which you will take offense at) who look at certain facts and distort them. That is the only way we will find out the absolute truth. Not through reports from the AI or from an investigation done by the Pentagon on itself, cmon, how credible is that? That is the only way I will be satisfied that my country is in fact what we say it is and if it isn't, ensure that does who do wrong are punished.

I like the idea of the all women swat team sent in to deal with the more violent prisoners. I was amused at the religious irony.

That is sick, really, really sick. I don't think you realize how offensive that is to an orthodox Muslim. Sick.

 

[RightinNYC]

Sorry, didn't realize I was obligated. I have a job and a wife. Until this forum either starts paying me or giving me orgasms you might have to wait a day or two for a response.

Didn't read the rest. Don't need to. You win the argument.

Holy **** that was great.

hahahahahahahahahahaha.