The Truth about Koran Abuse

[RightinNYC]

Here is a link to the Geneva convention. Read it and be enlightened as to what torture is. Geneva Convention It doesn't fly in the face as you put it of people who have been tortured. They were and these people are too, and while it is different degrees of torture, it is still torture.
:shock: Wow, you hit the nail on the head...but it wasn't every administrations goal to force feed their brand of freedom to the world...oh wait, what were those years when we held up dictators because they weren't communist or socialist...oh yeah, let's just forget about those years.
Over-vigorous interrogation practices...wow. That is what the younglings are calling torture these days. It does undermine our credibility to say they are hurting others when in fact we are doing it ourselves and saying it is our right to do so.
Those are all examples of torture all at varying degrees of torture, but it doesn't make what is happening at Gitmo any less of torture against human beings.

How bout this, we always give the right of due process to immigrants who are arrested. That enough, or do I have to waste my time and look it up?

Oh and walrus, this is the second post I responded to of yours, please answer the last one as well.

Your gist in this post is to imply that just because we torture less than others, its still torture.

Where do you get the idea that we're torturing prisoners? So far every bit of evidence claiming that we were has been proven false or found to not have supporting evidence. There is nothing that has proven that there was a shred of inappropriate action at Guantanamo bay that was not immediately handled.

 

[alienken]

Why is it that we are the only nation held to such a ridiculously high standard of conduct? If we found out that China was abusing political prisoners (shocking thought, I know) the world would just shrug and move on. When Russia destroys entire Chechnyan villages in order to cleanse them of a few insurgents, the world never even notices. If a United States soldier speaks rudely to a Muslim prisoner, the world riots at our evil and inexcusable behaviour.

I think this statement really sums it up, way to go Walrus.
Abu Graive was isolated, it got blown out of proportion by partisan people who will do anything to smear Bush, our military and the U.S. in general. When I first heard of the Abu Graive I was only upset when I realized how bad it looks to the world because it did hurt international relations. The story continued for a few days, then the be headings started. As far as I was concerned the Abu Graive story was/is over. Sure we have to be better than them because we are, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

[26 X World Champs]

First - we are under no legal (or I believe moral) obligation to go to the lengths which we have taken to avoid offending the religious sensibilities of person captured in armed conflict....(snip)....It's the same irony as when Germany called us a "nation of warmongers". This from the people who tried to conquer the planet twice in the last century.

What a horrible thing to write. You're saying that you're just fine with us not doing what we should to treat people the way we want to be treated. That makes YOU the morally equal to our enemies, good going!

Second - there is no guilty until proven innocent in this case. The protections of the Constitution extend to American citizens. I cannot imagine the founding fathers intended the Constitution to apply to the British in 1812, for example. There are certain protections provided by the Geneva Conventions (which I will agree we are violating in some ways) but these protections do not include "guilty until proven innocent".

It really is hard to be so wrong so often. Not only are you morally deficient you're also factually misguided. In my part of America you are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like where you live. Our laws DO cover everyone, not just the people you choose! YIKES!

When we offer rewards in this country for the capture of a criminal - does that mean that the criminal that we capture has been unfairly captured?

This makes strike three....UGH! If we offer rewards and the people claiming them are turning in THEIR (not OUR) enemies simply to cash in, that is unfair, that is crap, and that is what's happened! Maybe you do not have the ability the differentiate between the two, which is very sad for you.

If you are going to reduce your post to a huge picture and a short sentence, at least shrink the picture a bit so it doesn't take up half a page worth of posts. Unless it is an interesting or effective picture, which in this case it wasn't.

I loved that picture, it describes many of you out there on this board, and it describes you too Sgt. Shaw.

As to the other pictures, I also am at a loss as to what I am supposed to gain from them. It looks like a man in a prison jumpsuit with his hands restrained and a mask. This is torture? We sure have drifted from the days of bamboo under the fingernails and the death of a million cuts.

Of course you can't "see" anything in that Gitmo picture because to you it doesn't matter how we treat our enemy.

Amnesty Intl. has proven time and time again that they are in no way an un-biased organization. They ignore human rights violations that are not politically expedient while highlighting those that are. This is why some of us take what they say with a large grain of salt.

So the fact that of the over 500 detainees in Gitmo have been held now for 3+ years and only FOUR have been charged! None have been tried. Are you telling me this is American justice? Depsite what you think, even the detainees are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Only feeble minded people believe otherwise, and their belief is flat out wrong according to our laws.

Why is it that we are the only nation held to such a ridiculously high standard of conduct?

Strike FOUR! Thank GOD that your way of thinking is not the law of the land nor the principles that we as Americans believe in. What you've written is pure, unadulterated bullshit. As an American and as a citizen of the Earth I find what you wrote to be evil.

 

[26 X World Champs]

I think this statement really sums it up, way to go Walrus.
Abu Graive was isolated, it got blown out of proportion by partisan people who will do anything to smear Bush, our military and the U.S. in general. When I first heard of the Abu Graive I was only upset when I realized how bad it looks to the world because it did hurt international relations. The story continued for a few days, then the be headings started. As far as I was concerned the Abu Graive story was/is over. Sure we have to be better than them because we are, but let's keep things in perspective.

So Abu Ghraib was isolated and blown out of proportion? Like this:

 

[26 X World Champs]

Your gist in this post is to imply that just because we torture less than others, its still torture.

Where do you get the idea that we're torturing prisoners? So far every bit of evidence claiming that we were has been proven false or found to not have supporting evidence. There is nothing that has proven that there was a shred of inappropriate action at Guantanamo bay that was not immediately handled.

Let me ask you something? How would we know if prisoners were being tortured? We wouldn't know! Who would tell us? Are you so brain cleansed to believe that if we were regularly abusing prisoners we would one day stop doing it and admit all?

Give me a break!

 

[teacher]

So Abu Ghraib was isolated and blown out of proportion? Like this:

4 out of 5 terrorists surveyed said they would rather be beheaded than forced to play naked twister.

 

[RightinNYC]

What a horrible thing to write. You're saying that you're just fine with us not doing what we should to treat people the way we want to be treated. That makes YOU the morally equal to our enemies, good going!

You're going to draw parallels between the incredibly humane way prisoners are treated in Guantanamo and the beheadings? That makes you the intellectual equal to, oh, let's say Amnesty International.

It really is hard to be so wrong so often.

Then I commend you for your hard work.

Not only are you morally deficient you're also factually misguided. In my part of America you are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like where you live. Our laws DO cover everyone, not just the people you choose! YIKES!

Really? Our laws cover everyone? So how come illegal immigrants don't get full access to our laws? How come prisoners of war don't get full access to our laws? Because they DON'T cover everyone.

This makes strike three....UGH! If we offer rewards and the people claiming them are turning in THEIR (not OUR) enemies simply to cash in, that is unfair, that is crap, and that is what's happened! Maybe you do not have the ability the differentiate between the two, which is very sad for you.

That's not crap. There's no evidence that anything out of order took place, and no reason to think so. People who were wanted were arrested, and people who took the risk of telling on them were rewarded.

I loved that picture, it describes many of you out there on this board, and it describes you too Sgt. Shaw.

You can play that same chord over and over, but it doesn't mean a damn thing. I don't have a TV, and I haven't watched Fox News for more than 10 hours probably total in my life. Yet, I'd wager that I'm better informed than you. This thread would certainly imply so.

Of course you can't "see" anything in that Gitmo picture because to you it doesn't matter how we treat our enemy.

What do YOU see, oh wise one?

So the fact that of the over 500 detainees in Gitmo have been held now for 3+ years and only FOUR have been charged! None have been tried. Are you telling me this is American justice? Depsite what you think, even the detainees are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Only feeble minded people believe otherwise, and their belief is flat out wrong according to our laws.

So four have been charged, over a hundred have been released, and of that hundred, at least 12 have been confirmed as joining the terrorists again. Sound good to you? Let's release the rest so they can regain their freedom to attack and kill our troops.

Strike FOUR! Thank GOD that your way of thinking is not the law of the land nor the principles that we as Americans believe in. What you've written is pure, unadulterated bullshit. As an American and as a citizen of the Earth I find what you wrote to be evil.

Funny, he asked a question, and rather than address it, you decried him as evil, unamerican, and made some posturing about how he violated American principles. You sound like your own caricature of a certain president who you rail against often...

 

[akyron]

4 out of 5 terrorists surveyed said they would rather be beheaded than forced to play naked twister.

Yeah.
It is not right but comparing naked twister to getting your head chopped off and aired on al-jizzera so your kids can see you begging for your life really is not in the same league.
You can scream all you want but there is no comparison.

Neither should have happened but one is certainly much much worse than the other.

 

[RightinNYC]

Let me ask you something? How would we know if prisoners were being tortured? We wouldn't know! Who would tell us? Are you so brain cleansed to believe that if we were regularly abusing prisoners we would one day stop doing it and admit all?

Give me a break!

We would have a bit more evidence than the word of a few suspected terrorists. I have faith that somewhere in the thousands of people who are involved in guarding the detainees as well as in charge of investigating allegations of abuse, there would be at least one person who would have the conscience to admit what was happening. If something was happening. But instead, every single shred of evidence points to the opposite.

You make the assumption that we were at some point in the past "regularly abusing prisoners."

 

[akyron]

It really is hard to be so wrong so often.

We certainly appreciate all your hard work at it on so many threads.

This board would not be nearly as fun without you.

Thanks.

 

[26 X World Champs]

We would have a bit more evidence than the word of a few suspected terrorists. I have faith that somewhere in the thousands of people who are involved in guarding the detainees as well as in charge of investigating allegations of abuse, there would be at least one person who would have the conscience to admit what was happening. If something was happening. But instead, every single shred of evidence points to the opposite.

You make the assumption that we were at some point in the past "regularly abusing prisoners."

I never, ever wrote that we are regularly abusing anyone. Read it again darling. I wrote IF we were regularly abusing prisoners we would never know.

Regardless, your wiped brain is so clean and shiny. It's nice to know that you believe everything your government tells you. What a patriot you are Sgt. Raymond Shaw!

Since you know so much, and you certainly know a great deal, I want to offer you this great deal on the item below...it's just for you at a very special price, but you better hurry because deals like this only come along once in a gitmo moon.....

 

[RightinNYC]

I never, ever wrote that we are regularly abusing anyone. Read it again darling. I wrote IF we were regularly abusing prisoners we would never know.

Regardless, your wiped brain is so clean and shiny. It's nice to know that you believe everything your government tells you. What a patriot you are Sgt. Raymond Shaw!

Since you know so much, and you certainly know a great deal, I want to offer you this great deal on the item below...it's just for you at a very special price, but you better hurry because deals like this only come along once in a gitmo moon.....

I'm sorry that I attributed that statement to you. I assumed that was what you were implying.

And now you're back to your old habit of simply posting pictures, making irrational statements, and neglecting to refute arguments.

Good to see some things never change.

 

[ludahai]

And now you're back to your old habit of simply posting pictures, making irrational statements, and neglecting to refute arguments.

And you expected something better from a Yankees fan?

:shoot Yankees

 

[RightinNYC]

And you expected something better from a Yankees fan?

:shoot Yankees

As a diehard yankee fan myself....I can't say too much.

 

[ShamMol]

Your gist in this post is to imply that just because we torture less than others, its still torture.

Where do you get the idea that we're torturing prisoners? So far every bit of evidence claiming that we were has been proven false or found to not have supporting evidence. There is nothing that has proven that there was a shred of inappropriate action at Guantanamo bay that was not immediately handled.

The problem is that every time Senators or others visit to "investigate" and look over Gitmo, they likely are being shown "nice interrogations" where they are much like those that take place in the United States. There was a report a month or so back in which they had women say that they rubbed themselves over the men, directly in contradiction with their religion and with the Geneva Convention. Now, to us, that is fine, but in the Islamic religion, and especially the brand these men most likely follow, it is a huge no-no and is sacriledge (spelling?). That is torture.

Where would the supporting evidence come in? The self-investigating Pentagon? I am going to say it nicer than 26x-we can't trust them completely. Do I believe that they believe waht they are saying? Absolutely, but I would like to see an impartial one done by a Congression bi-partisan commission, much like there was for 9-11 dealing with all abuses world-wide so to find out what is really happening. This would mean that certain high-level prisoners would have to be made availiable and undercover work done in prisons to find out what is really happening and not the white-wash version senators are getting imo. That is the only way we will know, and if it comes back that there is no torture, I will be very happy, but I am willing to bet there is a large amount (specially at Gitmo and the 30 or so more prisons like it).

And RightatNYU, I was born in Boston, so I have to say taht I hate the Yankees as well...

 

[26 X World Champs]

I'm sorry that I attributed that statement to you. I assumed that was what you were implying.

And now you're back to your old habit of simply posting pictures, making irrational statements, and neglecting to refute arguments.

Good to see some things never change.

Refute what argument? That you're completely unable to accept that if we were abusing prisoners in an isolated prison on an island that has a complete blackout on stories and pictures from it that the government would never admit it. What is there to refute? You're sticking your macho chest out saying prove to me that we've kicked the sh*t out of those prisoners when to people who, unlike you Sgt. Shaw have the capability of independent thought understand that we will never know if these prisoners are being treated fairly.

BTW - If you had watched 60 Minutes Sunday night you would have seen a piece about military appointed lawyers trying to defend these prisoners. They clearly stated that they are innocent until proven guilty.

Sgt. Shaw? Have you seen the Queen of Hearts?

 

[RightinNYC]

The problem is that every time Senators or others visit to "investigate" and look over Gitmo, they likely are being shown "nice interrogations" where they are much like those that take place in the United States. There was a report a month or so back in which they had women say that they rubbed themselves over the men, directly in contradiction with their religion and with the Geneva Convention. Now, to us, that is fine, but in the Islamic religion, and especially the brand these men most likely follow, it is a huge no-no and is sacriledge (spelling?). That is torture.

If that's torture, than so was **** Christ. And the painting of Mary covered in elephant dung. Where was the left wing outrage then? Those were federally funded too.

Where would the supporting evidence come in? The self-investigating Pentagon? I am going to say it nicer than 26x-we can't trust them completely. Do I believe that they believe waht they are saying? Absolutely, but I would like to see an impartial one done by a Congression bi-partisan commission, much like there was for 9-11 dealing with all abuses world-wide so to find out what is really happening. This would mean that certain high-level prisoners would have to be made availiable and undercover work done in prisons to find out what is really happening and not the white-wash version senators are getting imo. That is the only way we will know, and if it comes back that there is no torture, I will be very happy, but I am willing to bet there is a large amount (specially at Gitmo and the 30 or so more prisons like it).

And while we're at it, lets appoint a commission to investigate whether or not we actually landed on the moon, and another to investigate whether Bush stole the election. Not every single left wing conspiracy theory deserves a commission. There's about as much evidence to support either of those claims as there is to support the notion that there's "30 or so" other prisons like Guantanamo.

And RightatNYU, I was born in Boston, so I have to say taht I hate the Yankees as well...

******* all you red sox fans. damn you. damn you to hell!

 

[ShamMol]

But it is Amnesty's responsibility, as a bastion of truth, NOT to publish allegations as fact. They took what amounted to lies intended to damage the reputation of the US, and with absolutely no supporting evidence, gave it the stamp of legitimacy of Amnesty International. You don't see that as a problem? You aren't furious that an organization which you're a member of damaged its credibility so badly in an obviously partisan statement? Even the head of Amnesty USA is doing all he can to backpedal from those statements. You should hold organizations which you're a supporting member of to a higher standard.

AI Report

Do I think it was partisan? Hell no. It was saying what it thinks as usual and doesn't do anything to hurt its credibility in my humble opinion. I would not have used that phrase, but it doesn't change what is said there. The problem is that all we have is allegations because the government won't allow a non-partisan independent investigation of all US abuse of prisoners in the world. I hold them to quite a high standard and found they wrote a wonderful report about the abuse and detailed all their claims quite well. What lies did they tell? None. They told what they found in their investigation and used one bad phrase. Whoop-di-doo, I use bad phrases all the time, we all do. They were right to publish the report because it gave an account of what they saw in their investigation and thus had a responsibility to share those findings with the members and community around them.

 

[ShamMol]

If that's torture, than so was **** Christ. And the painting of Mary covered in elephant dung. Where was the left wing outrage then? Those were federally funded too.

Sorry, don't remember that. Can't comment on it. I probably would have been pretty mad though.

And while we're at it, lets appoint a commission to investigate whether or not we actually landed on the moon, and another to investigate whether Bush stole the election. Not every single left wing conspiracy theory deserves a commission. There's about as much evidence to support either of those claims as there is to support the notion that there's "30 or so" other prisons like Guantanamo.

This isn't a left-wing conspiracy. There are a lot of reports out there, there are people who worked there saying it happened. This isn't the moon-landing. This is real and on-going and needs to be investigated. The CIA is holding more than 40 people all around the world in other countries avoiding INTLLAW and the Geneva Convention or having other countries hold them where they conviniently don't follow torture laws. I think the American public has the right to know, but you just call it a conspiracy theory.

******* all you red sox fans. damn you. damn you to hell!

Angry you are...Gusfraba...

You should learn that all teams fall from grace. But not many as hard as the Yankees. J/k. We love you, you know?

 

[RightinNYC]

Refute what argument? That you're completely unable to accept that if we were abusing prisoners in an isolated prison on an island that has a complete blackout on stories and pictures from it that the government would never admit it. What is there to refute? You're sticking your macho chest out saying prove to me that we've kicked the sh*t out of those prisoners when to people who, unlike you Sgt. Shaw have the capability of independent thought understand that we will never know if these prisoners are being treated fairly.

BTW - If you had watched 60 Minutes Sunday night you would have seen a piece about military appointed lawyers trying to defend these prisoners. They clearly stated that they are innocent until proven guilty.

Sgt. Shaw? Have you seen the Queen of Hearts?

First off, please, PLEASE for your own sake, and for the sake of your arguments, stop making hysterical references to brainwashing and things of that ilk. It makes you sound like a raving lunatic, which (although I'm become less and less certain) I don't think you are.

You yourself are sounding a bit like John Iselin...

Anyways, it surprises you that a lawyer for the detainees would be claiming that they have rights? You take anything a defense lawyer says as fact? Then I guess they best be letting Michael go right about now...

And you're right, we COULD be kicking the crap out of prisoners on a completely secret base right now. And we COULD be harboring aliens at Area 51. And we COULD all be part of the Matrix. A lot of **** COULD be. And there's about as much evidence pointing to either of the last two possibilities as there is to the first.

 

[RightinNYC]

AI Report

Do I think it was partisan? Hell no. It was saying what it thinks as usual and doesn't do anything to hurt its credibility in my humble opinion. I would not have used that phrase, but it doesn't change what is said there. The problem is that all we have is allegations because the government won't allow a non-partisan independent investigation of all US abuse of prisoners in the world. I hold them to quite a high standard and found they wrote a wonderful report about the abuse and detailed all their claims quite well. What lies did they tell? None. They told what they found in their investigation and used one bad phrase. Whoop-di-doo, I use bad phrases all the time, we all do. They were right to publish the report because it gave an account of what they saw in their investigation and thus had a responsibility to share those findings with the members and community around them.

It was inarguably partisan. An organization that is dedicated to promoting human rights worldwide just slandered a nation without ANY evidence whatsoever, and just gave fuel to the people who DO violate human rights on a daily basis, all to jump on a political bandwagon and satisfy their largely left leaning membership.

If it was such a good report, why is the head of Amnesty USA backpedaling from it as fast as he can go? Because he realized that they went too far.

 

[ShamMol]

First off, please, PLEASE for your own sake, and for the sake of your arguments, stop making hysterical references to brainwashing and things of that ilk. It makes you sound like a raving lunatic, which (although I'm become less and less certain) I don't think you are.

I actually agree, but the point that rhetoric should not be used as much is a good one imo. But using brainwashing via Fox is kinda...dumb.

You yourself are sounding a bit like John Iselin...

Omg, that made me laugh so hard!

Anyways, it surprises you that a lawyer for the detainees would be claiming that they have rights? You take anything a defense lawyer says as fact? Then I guess they best be letting Michael go right about now...

They put on a much better case. You know, defense lawyers are the only thing that make the courts legitimate because without them, they would just be a rubber stamp for the prosecutors. And fyi, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, didn't know if you knew that or not...

And you're right, we COULD be kicking the crap out of prisoners on a completely secret base right now. And we COULD be harboring aliens at Area 51. And we COULD all be part of the Matrix. A lot of **** COULD be. And there's about as much evidence pointing to either of the last two possibilities as there is to the first.

And we should have an investigation that is independent for the torturing of non-citizens, also known as enemy combatants. We could be following the Geneva Convention, we could be granting basic human rights. We could be doing a lot of things, and we should be doing a lot of things.

 

[ShamMol]

It was inarguably partisan. An organization that is dedicated to promoting human rights worldwide just slandered a nation without ANY evidence whatsoever, and just gave fuel to the people who DO violate human rights on a daily basis, all to jump on a political bandwagon and satisfy their largely left leaning membership.

If it was such a good report, why is the head of Amnesty USA backpedaling from it as fast as he can go? Because he realized that they went too far.

He is backpedaling from that one statement, not the abuse taht is detailed in the report. I suggest you take a look, it is quite thorough and non-partisan except for the section where the president is now back pedalling from it.

It satisfies the membership not because it was against the administration or anything like that, it satisfies us because it was quite thorough and very detailed. Read the report. Please. Then tell me that it has no basis. Then tell me I am a complete idiot for supporting human rights. Not before. If you read the report and look to their souces and look to everything cited, then you have all the right in the world. But not before. The report is sound, the opinion (which is being backpedaled from) is not.

 

[RightinNYC]

Sorry, don't remember that. Can't comment on it. I probably would have been pretty mad though.

They were desecrations of Christian memorabilia that the left fought tooth and nail to defend, saying that it was art. Now it's torture. "Well, whatever will make America look bad," that's become the attitude of too much of the left.

This isn't a left-wing conspiracy. There are a lot of reports out there, there are people who worked there saying it happened. This isn't the moon-landing. This is real and on-going and needs to be investigated. The CIA is holding more than 40 people all around the world in other countries avoiding INTLLAW and the Geneva Convention or having other countries hold them where they conviniently don't follow torture laws. I think the American public has the right to know, but you just call it a conspiracy theory.

There's also a lot of reports detailing the US's responsible practices. It's hard to argue against an impartial investigation because the idea of it always appeals to the public. At this point, my opposition is mostly on principle. I think that all these accusations are slaps in the face to all the people who do good work. And no matter how good the investigations turned out, some people (26X) would find a way to criticize our actions. So its a lose-lose situation.

Angry you are...Gusfraba...

You should learn that all teams fall from grace. But not many as hard as the Yankees. J/k. We love you, you know?

hahaha, I know. Truth be told, I liked the yanks more before they started winning so much...91-94 were the best years....good memories.

 

[ludahai]

And RightatNYU, I was born in Boston, so I have to say taht I hate the Yankees as well...

Hey, we found something that we can cross party lines on. I am a NH native and love the BoSox.

As for Gitmo, I have no problem with a bipartisan investigation. I am confident that it would find that the abuses have been wildly overstated and perhaps we will get more reports of the behavior of the detanees.