The Truth about Koran Abuse

[MSgt]

Like banning flag burning.

 

[akyron]

Palestinians tore up some Bibles for toilet paper and removed many valuable sacramental objects, according to a May 15, 2002, report by the Washington Times.


Well you did not see 17 Christians slaughtering themselves in a fit of rage so were they not good Christians or merely not stupid?


After the newsweek thing:
"We condemn and denounce this criminal act against Muslims' most sacred item," al-Sheik said.

Nevermind the "17 dead, scores injured, relief buildings burned down and a setback to years of coalition-building against terrorists."


This is all a tragic joke but on whom?

 

[debate_junkie]

I am sure that there are people who were liberal who were on your side and those who weren't may have had somewhat of a point (though not much) if it was displayed as art (you never knows what passes for art). But I probably would have been offended if I was a Christian. I hope that an investigation would not make the US look bad, but I also think that the US will look bad for not having one.

I know there are people who do great work, but I also believe in my heart that there are people out there who do horrible work. I don't think it will hurt the good people to see the bad people go down and I think it would boost them to know they were morally right and that they were proved right. I don't think that people saying it is happening puts a damper on all people doing it, just puts one on the people who are proved to have done it. If the investigation proves that there is no abuse, great! I think it will help the US out a lot in the world, but I also believe that if there isn't one, people in the world will always wonder.
Yeah, I haven't watched the Sox as much as I used to now that I just know they will win. Still...gusfraba...

And, I am so glad you agree that it would do no harm and probably bolster your case ludahai because it is you that is needed in this world.

The problem with Gitmo is this... it's run by humans. Humans, who have their own opinions, and some who have no problems acting on said opinions. Abu Grahib showed us that there WERE things within our military that needed dealt with... soldiers who acted on their own accord, and not the military's (and before the spin gets going.. it's never been proven the orders for such abuses came from the top. they were cleared.. so don't even try with me)

We can only do as much as humanly possible to ensure that the treatment of the Gitmo detainees is on the up and up. Stating there has never been a problem at Gitmo is false, but saying it's a widespread problem, is also false. The Pentagon, while saying they were isolated, also showed where a soldier was reprimanded for his/her intentional act (and are they that uncivilized in Gitmo that a soldier has to relieve himself on an outside wall of the camp? That one sounds a bit suspect to me.).

But to say the Gitmo detainees have been "tortured" I'm sorry. I cannot buy that without proof. Because, and I say this with all seriousness... If having a religious book kicked is "torture" then what was Auschwitz? Seems to me the definition of the word has been skewed to meet one's opinion of the situation.

Oh and by the way, as a Diamondbacks fan, 2001 was a great baseball season! :2wave:

 

[akyron]

I understand and of course believe in freedom of speech. However, the rules of this community state:


I think it is disruptive when one member attacks an entire country with crude and bigoted posts. What would your attitude be if instead of French in his post he had written Black? He also used the word Frog as a slur. What you tolerate the use of the word Nigger or Kike or Leaf Blower?

What constitutes an unacceptable racial slur if that post does not qualify? Please let me know?

Thanks!

I was unaware France was a race now. Is this new?

 

[26 X World Champs]

I was unaware France was a race now. Is this new?

What is your point? Are you defending bigotry? Shall we mark you down on the side of hate, too? :fueltofir

Are you saying that you're not smart enough to notice when someone writes hate-filled posts that defile a whole group of people? Is that what you meant?

 

[akyron]

What is your point? Are you defending bigotry? Shall we mark you down on the side of hate, too? :fueltofir

Are you saying that you're not smart enough to notice when someone writes hate-filled posts that defile a whole group of people? Is that what you meant?

Mark all you want. Since when is France a race?

 

[ShamMol]

Bigiotry is generally accepted to extent to different nationalities, but if that isn't clear enough, then general hatred works too. Honestly, people use the word bigotry because it sounds so much cooler.

 

[ShamMol]

The problem with Gitmo is this... it's run by humans. Humans, who have their own opinions, and some who have no problems acting on said opinions. Abu Grahib showed us that there WERE things within our military that needed dealt with... soldiers who acted on their own accord, and not the military's (and before the spin gets going.. it's never been proven the orders for such abuses came from the top. they were cleared.. so don't even try with me)

We can only do as much as humanly possible to ensure that the treatment of the Gitmo detainees is on the up and up. Stating there has never been a problem at Gitmo is false, but saying it's a widespread problem, is also false. The Pentagon, while saying they were isolated, also showed where a soldier was reprimanded for his/her intentional act (and are they that uncivilized in Gitmo that a soldier has to relieve himself on an outside wall of the camp? That one sounds a bit suspect to me.).

But to say the Gitmo detainees have been "tortured" I'm sorry. I cannot buy that without proof. Because, and I say this with all seriousness... If having a religious book kicked is "torture" then what was Auschwitz? Seems to me the definition of the word has been skewed to meet one's opinion of the situation.

Oh and by the way, as a Diamondbacks fan, 2001 was a great baseball season! :2wave:

Then what is Auschwitz? Still torture, just a differing degree of it.

What I want is simple, a independent bipartisan investigation like the 9-11 comission was. We spend so much each year on war, we could spend 10 million on this.

 

[akyron]

Bigiotry is generally accepted to extent to different nationalities, but if that isn't clear enough, then general hatred works too. Honestly, people use the word bigotry because it sounds so much cooler.

So who really hates france except maybe teacher?
What is there to hate?
Mimes?
Hot Chicks?
frogs legs?
bad beef?
The illegal rearming of sanctioned countries?

The french government was a little greedy and/or looked the other way. No country on earth is so goody goody that it has not made mistakes. So what?

I have spent a bit of working time in paris and it is an all right city to live in. The french people are all right and just as good and bad as anywhere else I have been (I have lived and worked in many countries).

I find it interesting how some people get up in arms when someone says something negative about another country but applaud negative comments about ones own country.

 

[debate_junkie]

Then what is Auschwitz? Still torture, just a differing degree of it.

What I want is simple, a independent bipartisan investigation like the 9-11 comission was. We spend so much each year on war, we could spend 10 million on this.

Investigation for what? Either I've had my head in the sand, or I'm missing just exactly how these men are being "tortured". Is eating roast chicken with orange sauce torture? Having a bed to sleep in torture? Having access to an outside yard with ping pong tables and tennis courts torture?

Someone help me here. I just don't see how it's happening. And wasn't there just a bi-partisan trip of Congress men and women to Gitmo a week or two ago? By golly, I believe there was.

U.S. lawmakers tour Guantanamo prison
House members on a one-day fact-finding visit

Updated: 12:43 p.m. ET June 26, 2005
GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba - During a tour of the U.S. prison for suspected terrorists on Saturday, House Republicans and Democrats, including one who has advocated closing the facility, said the United States has made progress in improving conditions and protecting detainees’ rights.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8357196/

 

[debate_junkie]

How about them peeing on you and your holy book. How about being chained naked to a chair, deprived of food, and then they change the temperature from 100 degrees to 60 degrees, and back to a hundred, and so on. Things of this nature.

In comparisons to what other places do, we aren't bad at all, but as far as what's acceptable in America, this is way out of line.

tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish.


Dictionary.com's definition of torture. I would like to know just WHERE in any of the things you just cited, is there an intent to cause SEVERE physical or mental anguish. I don't see it.

And also see my earlier post, where I question whether Gitmo is so uncivilized that a soldier has to urinate on a wall! Frankly, MOST of these incidences have been dealt with, and reprimands handed out accordingly. What more do you want?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Mark all you want. Since when is France a race?

You never heard of the Tour de France? :lol:

Seriously, hatred of a race or a nation of people is still hatred, it's still ignorant, it is outrageously wrong. IMHO anyone who enjoys hating an entire group of people based on where they live has to qualify as one of the lowest members of society....I guess I'm bigoted against bigots and against anyone who is stupid enough to hate the entire country of France.

How about you? Do you hate the entire country of France? If yes, what other nationalities or races do you also hate?

 

[26 X World Champs]

I have spent a bit of working time in paris and it is an all right city to live in. The french people are all right and just as good and bad as anywhere else I have been (I have lived and worked in many countries).

I agree completely! Well said!

I find it interesting how some people get up in arms when someone says something negative about another country but applaud negative comments about ones own country.

I don't think people get up in arms about, say, France when you speak about a specific action by their government that you "hate." Nor do most Americans get up in arms (accept the Neocons who love war & can['t wait for any excuse to invade) when someone criticizes America.

However, if you were to condemn an entire nation, be it France, North Korea or America then one is exposing their ignorance and their lack of ability to be objective, simply put they're damn stupid.

I do not know of anyone in this community who is American and who dislikes America and doesn't defend it. If you do, please point it out to us? Great countries and great people in great countries are able to accept critiques of their government even if they completely disagree, and they should be able to do so without accusing the critic of being anti-American.

 

[Billo_Really]

We are heading for our own Nuremburg!

Report of 180 Types of US Human Rights Violations Since 9/11
By Ann Fagan Ginger
t r u t h o u t | Report

Friday 08 July 2005

Berkeley, July 2005

In celebration of Independence Day and the rights and freedoms of the peoples of the US, reports of more than 180 violations of human rights by the US Government since 9/11 were submitted to the UN Human Rights Committee, the UN Committee Against Torture, the UN Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination, and to the Bureau of International Organization Affairs in the US Department of State under a resolution adopted by the City Council of Berkeley, California.

The 180 reports start with

1. The right not to be killed or disappeared
Report 1.1: Asylum Applicant Deported, Then Killed.
The categories continue:

2. The right not to be tortured or ordered to torture
3. Right peaceably to assemble and petition the government
4. Right to equal protection regardless of race or national origin
5. Right to equal protection for women
6. Right to free exercise of religion
7. Right of the media to report facts and not to be killed
8. Right to privacy vs. surveillance and registration
9. Right of libraries not to report on readers
10. Right of universities to accept foreign scholars and students
11. Right to travel
The reports then turn from the rights of the peoples living under US jurisdiction to the duties of the Government, including:

12. The Government's duty to count the votes accurately and report to the people honestly
13. The Government's duty not to send military for regime change in Afghanistan or Haiti
14. Not to send troops for invasion of Iraq
15. Not to support abusive regimes or violations of World Court Opinions
16. To deal fairly with conscientious objector claims and Stop-Loss orders
17. Not to maintain weapons of mass destruction or design new nukes
The reports then turn to the Government's duty to protect people's rights

18. To guarantee due process of law, right to counsel, and habeas corpus
19. Not to "detain" "enemy combatants" at Guantánamo Bay or anywhere else
20. To deal promptly and fairly with political asylum petitions
21. To protect the family, especially children
22. To enforce antitrust and anticorruption laws
23. To protect the rights of workers and unions
24. To release political prisoners; to stop capital punishment

Happy Birthday America!

 

[vandree]

tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish.


Dictionary.com's definition of torture. I would like to know just WHERE in any of the things you just cited, is there an intent to cause SEVERE physical or mental anguish. I don't see it.

That is not the legal definition of torture.

"The Convention against Torture defines torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession…." (Art. 1). It may be "inflicted by or at the instigation of or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

The prohibition against torture under international law applies to many measures—e.g. beating on the soles of the feet; electric shock applied to genitals and nipples; rape; near drowning through submersion in water; near suffocation by plastic bags tied around the head; burning; whipping; needles inserted under fingernails; mutilation; hanging by feet or hands for prolonged periods.

International law also prohibits mistreatment that does not meet the definition of torture, either because less severe physical or mental pain is inflicted, or because the necessary purpose of the ill-treatment is not present. It affirms the right of every person not to be subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. Examples of such prohibited mistreatment include being forced to stand spread eagled against the wall; being subjected to bright lights or blindfolding; being subjected to continuous loud noise; being deprived of sleep, food or drink; being subjected to forced constant standing or crouching; or violent shaking. In essence, any form of physical treatment used to intimidate, coerce or "break" a person during an interrogation constitutes prohibited ill-treatment. If these practices are intense enough, prolonged in duration, or combined with other measures that result in severe pain or suffering, they can qualify as torture.

The prohibition against torture as well as cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment is not limited to acts causing physical pain or injury. It includes acts that cause mental suffering—e.g. through threats against family or loved ones. As the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized, "coercion can be mental as well as physical…the blood of the accused is not the only hallmark of an unconstitutional inquisition" Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 448, (1966) citing Blackburn v. State of Alabama, 361 U.S. 199 (1960). As discussed below, the use of mind-altering drugs to compel a person to provide information would at least amount to inhuman or degrading treatment under the Convention against Torture."

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/TortureQandA.htm#What

 

[cnredd]

This is what we are discussing...

Someone pissed on a book....

Need to see it again? Slow motion perhaps?

Someone.....pissed.....on.....a.....book.....

The ACLU(Ass Clown Liberals United) have a problem when a public school puts "Merry Christmas" on the marquee out front, and will threaten Los Angeles(City of Angels) because they have a cross on their 100+ year old city-shield, but holler when .....someone.....pisses....on.....a.....book.....

It's a BOOK people.....It doesn't have powers....It didn't come from a Harry Potter movie...Its an object...just like a sport jacket or a dildo or a 9-iron; to place an object in higher esteem than others is an insult to my intelligence.

I put the bible in the same category...all you Christian haters can put down your pitchforks.

 

[26 X World Champs]

This is what we are discussing...

Someone pissed on a book....

It's a BOOK people.....It doesn't have powers....It didn't come from a Harry Potter movie...Its an object...just like a sport jacket or a dildo or a 9-iron; to place an object in higher esteem than others is an insult to my intelligence.

I put the bible in the same category...all you Christian haters can put down your pitchforks.

Intelligent people know that different icons have different meaning to different people. They're also smart enough to know that just because they do not find the something to be important does not mean that it is not important.

The disrespect one shows to others simply because they're different and you're unable to comprehend the meaning beyond your own shallow definition is one of the reasons that Americans are hated by more than a billion people.

I, for one, do not understand the passion that people feel about the Koran, but I do not understand the passion feel about the bible either. To me both passions are illogical and cause more problems on this planet than they solve.

Nevertheless I respect everyone's right to their beliefs, and I would never purposely aim to offend someone's tenets. It sure seems that some of you can't get past your own dogma and are unable to accept people being different than you are. That is how wars get started....

 

[vandree]

This is what we are discussing...

Someone pissed on a book....

Need to see it again? Slow motion perhaps?

Someone.....pissed.....on.....a.....book.....

The ACLU(Ass Clown Liberals United) have a problem when a public school puts "Merry Christmas" on the marquee out front, and will threaten Los Angeles(City of Angels) because they have a cross on their 100+ year old city-shield, but holler when .....someone.....pisses....on.....a.....book.....

It's a BOOK people.....It doesn't have powers....It didn't come from a Harry Potter movie...Its an object...just like a sport jacket or a dildo or a 9-iron; to place an object in higher esteem than others is an insult to my intelligence.

I put the bible in the same category...all you Christian haters can put down your pitchforks.

I know we are talking about a book. As I said before I find it amazing that people are more outraged for what happens to a book, than to what happens to people.

As Champs pointed out different icons have different meaning to different people. To some it is the Bible, to some the Koran and to some it is the flag...

And by the way that's not all that is going on at Guantanamo Bay.