Rev.
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kal-el said:Yes, as a matter of fact, your sky pixie created hell, and it's very first occupants were angels that caused a rocus in heaven.(which he had to forsee, but couldn't stop). The bible doesn't give an account of when he created the angels, but I guess it must have been before he created the universe, because Satan had already turned and was in the garden as a serpent.
kal-el said:Actually, the God of the bible utilizes threats and violence to coerse people to follow him, so they really have no choice.
kal-el said:What I don't quite get is why fundie Christians think a single abortion is so terrible, and think it's great that God drowned babies, pregnant women, all evildoers, etc. over 40 days? And if he can create the universe, why can't he make an ark, instead he had the alcoholic Noah slap it together, at a time when tools weren't yet invented nonetheless.
kal-el said:Our God, as opposed to others. It seems this "God" fellow gets quite on edge about Jews worshipping other Gods that he uses threats once again:
Naughty Nurse said:I'm sorry, but that sounds so much like a total cop-out. "I can't prove my god exists because that is the nature of my god."
kal-el said:Let me ask you something. If you believe in God so much, have you even taken the time to read his book?:bs Do I have to quote passages where it says God created everything, good AND evil?.
I don't think you're man who sky-rocketed up to heaven does either. After reading the Bible, he doesn't strike me as one who is an intellectual giant.:lol:
:rofl I guess you're illuding to your imaginary friend to which there isn't even a shred of evidence for his existence?
Wow, your beliefs are totally opposite to what the Bible says. I hope you're not basing your beleif on the Bible. The bible states that Satan introduced sin when he turned Eve, but it goes on to say that God created everything. So being omniscient, he created Satan with the full knowledge that he would be evil and introduce sin into the world, thus he cannot be omnibenevolent.
Even though to us it may seem like we have "free will", to an omniscvient creator, it's truly laughable. For instance if he knows that in 2 hours I will go out, I must go out in 2 hours, even though at that time it seems to me like I'm making the choice. We do not have free will.
No one has to try, it's all written in black and white, clearly so anyone can see.
Yes, what if it turns out that when we die there is a God, just not the BibleGod. And he would definetly hate all those who worshipped the wrong God (Christians), so atheists, not believeing in any God would have a clean slate.
Nope, but if your make-believe sky gremlin exists, and wants "the word" spread to everyone, you would think an omnipotent entity wouldn't entrust delusionals with this utmost important message.
talloulou said:The problem with God is that he/she/it is completely undefined and open to any and all subjective interpretations.
Rev. said:God doesn't see our lives as a written story and we are forced along according to the script we have.
God is omnicient in that he knows all of me...even my deepest secrets.
He knows my heart and he knows how I think.
He knows my strengths and weaknesses.
When I have a choice to make, He knows where each of those choices could lead and which one I am most likely to make if left to my own devices...
but my possible choices can change completely if my next-door neighbor chooses to eat something different for breakfast. The future is not predetermined the way you say.
You've read the Bible, right?
So you read the part where the Israelites entered into a contract with God. And you know about all the benefits they were entitled to by honoring the contract. The "threats and violence" you refer to were the penalty for breaking the contract. Do you consider "late fees" on your credit cards "threats and violence" to "coerce" you into making payments or do you accept that penalties are a necessary part of legal agreements?
Well, I'm not a fundie Christian so I hesitate to speak on their behalf, but I think it goes like this: God created the world. It's His. He can destroy it if He wants.
God created babies.
They're His. We do not have the right to destroy them.
I'm not sure where you're going with the ark thing.
You totally missed my emphasis, but so long as you're here, God was "on edge" because the whole purpose of the contract was that God would be Israel's God and they would be His people. They agreed. They promised. But they broke their promise.
AlbqOwl said:Yes, I have read it. And I have taught it at college level.
The Bible is not "God's book".
The Bible is a collection of numerous ancient manuscripts spanning thousands of years. These manuscripts contain history, poetry, symbolism, metaphor, parable, allegory, instruction, prophecy, eye witness accounts, and myth not intended to deceive but to explain and illustrate. Every manuscript was written down by one or several people attempting to explain or record their understanding of God and what they believed to be their encounters and relationship with Him.
Those with an open mind who take the time to educate themselves on what is actually contained in these manuscripts will invariably be blessed by the exercise. But you have to read the scriptures through the eyes and experience of those who wrote them. Those, believers and nonbelievers alike, who attempt to read and interpret the scriptures through 21st century understanding will most often get it wrong.
What man would that be?
Spoken like a true Atheist who desperately needs to convince himself there is no God. You do not know what evidence I have. Why is it so important to you to believe that my 'friend' is imaginary?
No, actually my beliefs re sin are quite supported by what the Bible says. The Biblically educated know that.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and created disaster, I, the lord do all these things.
Lamentations 3:38
Is it not from the mouth of the most high that both calamities and good things come?
Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When a disaster comes to a city, has not the lord caused it?
Or there is another way to look at it. An omniscient God could see the results and outcome if a person continued on his/her present course. And an omniscient God could see different results and outcome if a person changed his/her mind and chose a different course. Free will would suggest that that is up to us with no interference from God.
Aesop's Fables are written in black and white, clearly so anyone can see. Do you take them as what the author absolutely claims to have observed and is reporting? Or do you see them as something other than what is clearly written? Why would one need to treat a similar allegory in the Bible any differently?
If you read a paragraph about George Washington at Valley Forge, do you conclude that this one paragraph is all there is to the story? Or do you expect that much was left out of the telling? Why would you think the Bible was any different?
Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The Atheist, however, makes a religion of denying an existence of God and attempting to destroy the faith of believers. I believe a rational God would forgive ignorance.
But I believe that God is against sin because sin hurts believe either directly or cumulatively. And I have to believe there is an accounting at some point in some way for those who intentionally hurt others.
I don't believe He does. But you can't allow free will and at the same time force somebody to listen now can you?
XShipRider said:Better hope He doesn't subscribe to DebatePolitics.com.:doh
kal-el said:Then I guess congrats are in order.
A vast majority of Christians would surely disagree with you.
I see you have some background on the bible, that's more than I can say about most Christians.
Listen, reading the bible is what turned me into an atheist. Answer me this: Why is it ok to display a replica of a suffering man on a cross, but I bet very few people would flaunt a figure in an electric chair. I think the Christian Torture Symbol violates sensitivity on so many levels.
The same man who converes regularly with people in the OT, but must have a prolonged case of laryngitis, as no one has heard a chirp from him for thousands of years.:lol:
I don't need to convince myself, just the fact that there's evil present in the world is enough proof for me. If he truly is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, he can do away with all the evil. I'll continue to think you're friend is imaginary until you provide some observational evidence for such. Like I said, I have a comfy chair in my room just waiting for God to show up and park his fat keister on.:lol:
Dude, all good and evil come from God. Understand?
If the results and/or outcome of our path is bad, a Loving God would only want the best for his creation, and being omnipotent, nothing can stand in his way of achieving that goal.
Well, let me ask you this: does any portion of the bible remotely suggest than any of it is fictional? There's no warning label, it's not in the child's section at bookstores, in fact, it's the best seller. The bible does not allude to the fact that any of it is fiction.
Look, the bible goes to drastic lenghts to portry it as the word of an omnipotent God. If it is his book, why leave out certain parts? Being omniscient, he would know humanity would want to know everything about its past, so if the bible's not perfect, God is not perfect.
What leads you to believe that. Surely not the bible. And if you consider ignorance the abandonment of all logic and reason, I'll agree with ya.
Then in that case, who's gonna hold God accountable for the millions of people he killed or ordered others to kill in his name?
I'd rather be forced to listen, because this rancorous diety loves torturing and killing people for not worshipping him. Besides, he would already knows some are rational, and logical, and need supporting evidence before they jump into worship, so why doesn't he show himself? Is he shy?
You produced some statements which already were explained on this site. Your reading of the Bible is a very common misunderstanding. See the replies to the question about Good and Evil and Free Will put in a form of mathematical equation.kal-el said:What he has done? Dude, God is the all-powerful creator, right? And we are his creation, right? And we are not perfect, right? In that case he hasn't acted responsibly and cannot expect imperfect humans to act so. If the Bible God is loving, then everything he makes has to be good, or else he's not omnibenevolent.Btw, Tengo veintiseis anos.
kal-el said:The world this perfect God created is full of numerous atrocities, injustices, and unfairness. He's either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or knew very well what would come of his creation, but doesn't give a **** about us.
kal-el said:Sorry, but if this God is omniscient, he created Satan with the full knowhow that he would turn evil and introduce sin into the world. It's a pretty simple idea really, all things good and bad come from God.
kal-el said:Listen, an omniscient entity that knows everything, that is creator= no free will. It's a bit like if you went into the future and recorded all of my actions, and when the time comes, I have to do them, I think I'm choosing to do that, but a being who knows the future, already knows what we are going to do, hence no free will.
In the light of the above I just noticed that you were exercising your free will (choice) denying the existence of such. If you want to act on the base that nobody knows, or Flying Spaghetti Monster knows, or you know, or your self-assurance that you don’t care, it is you choice. I just would not call an intelligent look at reality.
kal-el said:You are still in high school aren't you? This "God" fellow is portrayed as an asshole, who plays "hide and seek" with Adam and "peek a boo" with Moses, and the fatous, imbecilic God who is quick to anger has to be constantly worshipped, feared and appeased, mostly by sacrifices. Even the apostle Paul said God demands blood sacrifices.
Are you proud that you already have a high school diploma? Does it make you educated? I am still learning.
Apparently you have some special edition of the Bible with some special comments.
Again you’re projecting your judgment, fears and superstitions on actions (ways) of God. The Bible says the point is nobody can know ways of God. No doubt, you have to sacrifice when you make your choice (see the above) – you always sacrifice one part of your choice for another one. If it was so easy – what would be the meaning of choice? It is not inconceivable and/or completely unavoidable that you may have to sacrifice your blood in a certain situations of making a choice in your life. If you made a choice and sacrificing your blood makes you change your decision, - what is the value of you choice?
Again, based on choice of your words you are in the same circle of judging bad and good, and in your judgment you are using commonly interpreted Biblical understandings of what is good.
You noted fear as a part of human nature. Acting and making your choices you cannot avoid the fear of not reaching the desirable outcome of your action; and all other fears. Why don’t you concentrate all human fears in loving God in heaven and have no fears of whatever on the Earth. How else Jews could go through all atrocities and still carefully guard and preserve from strangers and barbarians the true history of humanity? Fear of God means no fear on the Earth. By the away, I avoid Rev’s judgment of Jews. God will work out the legalities and penalties of the contract without my legal advice. If I was not a barbarian and a stranger I won’t have a problem to be a Jew. But the only choice I have is to worship the same God through Jesus. Thanks Christ for the opportunity.
kal-el said:Correction- it's the best selling book, NOT the most read. Very few people are bible literate.
I did not say selling. If to compare to many others I am not Bible literate. The trick of the Bible is it is not exactly for scientists or smart people or even literate people – it is designed to be for everyone , for all times and forever. And so far it has been meeting the design.
You made me laugh . Couldn’t help. Just don’t make fun out of yourself.kal-el said:Is this your ethnologic, phantasmagoric attempt at comedy? .
AlbqOwl said:I would be extremely surprised that anybody who was not a Christian would have a clue about what most Christians believe about most things.
You made a life decision because you read one book? Many, Christians or not, would consider that less than prudent.
To quote scripture that you have neither studied and obviously do not understand as proof of the validity of your Atheism is also every bit as imprudent as people using the Scriptures incorrectly to prove the validity of their faith.
Some Christians use the crucifix as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, did for them. Others use the empty cross as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, accomplished by dying for them.
Atheism requires that these facts be misrepresented, even scorned. I think that many Atheists work so hard to discredit Christianity because they are so terrified that it might be true.
The first story in the Bible as we now have it is an allegory depicting the presumption of mankind to be as smart as God and the consequences for that kind of arrogance.
Atheists are so certain that they have God all figured out even as they declare that He does not exist. Doesn't that strike you as just a little weird?
It's okay though.
I believe that those who are willing to risk an encounter with God will absolutely know the truth. Those who are not won't. It's as simple as that.
justone said:You produced some statements which already were explained on this site.
Your reading of the Bible is a very common misunderstanding. See the replies to the question about Good and Evil and Free Will put in a form of mathematical equation.
As it was said about Evil, you are producing your personal judgment of atrocities.
The Bible leaves judgment to God.
I agree in the most part with Rev, how He knows.
Also the Bible is some guidance for us to look up where our choices are leading (see Rev’s reply).
How would you describe for us our choices without mentioning atrocities and “’punishments”” for wrong choices?
Absence of such would undermine the meaning of choice. It would not matter left or right.
Who told you that Evil is acting against God’s Good (not your good)?
It may be a force which always determined to produce Bad but always produces Good in the end result. You have a choice to join the force, but with all your determination you will always produce Good. God will judge.
See the above. ‘’→’’ ‘’↑’’ And add the opposite effect. You may join the Church for good and expect that if you do good things you will be awarded.
God may consider such pre-calculation as a part you filthy business like intention to gain a profit in a trade with Him. ‘’→’’ Go to Him knowing you ahead of time etc. ‘’↑’’
In the light of the above I just noticed that you were exercising your free will (choice) denying the existence of such. If you want to act on the base that nobody knows, or Flying Spaghetti Monster knows, or you know, or your self-assurance that you don’t care, it is you choice. I just would not call an intelligent look at reality.
Mark 14:7
The poor you will alwys have with you, and you can help them anytime you want. But you will not always have me.
Are you proud that you already have a high school diploma?
Does it make you educated? I am still learning.
Apparently you have some special edition of the Bible with some special comments.
Again you’re projecting your judgment, fears and superstitions on actions (ways) of God.
The Bible says the point is nobody can know ways of God.
No doubt, you have to sacrifice when you make your choice (see the above) – you always sacrifice one part of your choice for another one. If it was so easy – what would be the meaning of choice? It is not inconceivable and/or completely unavoidable that you may have to sacrifice your blood in a certain situations of making a choice in your life. If you made a choice and sacrificing your blood makes you change your decision, - what is the value of you choice?
Again, based on choice of your words you are in the same circle of judging bad and good, and in your judgment you are using commonly interpreted Biblical understandings of what is good.
You noted fear as a part of human nature. Acting and making your choices you cannot avoid the fear of not reaching the desirable outcome of your action; and all other fears. Why don’t you concentrate all human fears in loving God in heaven and have no fears of whatever on the Earth. How else Jews could go through all atrocities and still carefully guard and preserve from strangers and barbarians the true history of humanity? Fear of God means no fear on the Earth. By the away, I avoid Rev’s judgment of Jews. God will work out the legalities and penalties of the contract without my legal advice. If I was not a barbarian and a stranger I won’t have a problem to be a Jew. But the only choice I have is to worship the same God through Jesus. Thanks Christ for the opportunity.
I did not say selling. If to compare to many others I am not Bible literate. The trick of the Bible is it is not exactly for scientists or smart people or even literate people – it is designed to be for everyone , for all times and forever. And so far it has been meeting the design.
You made me laugh . Couldn’t help. Just don’t make fun out of yourself.
kal-el said:the bible even says that God prepares a list of hell's occupants,
kal-el said:I see the creation myth like this- When coerced by the serpant, Eve disobeys God and gives fruit to Adam. How the hell could they possibly have known that it was "wrong?"
Rev. said:Please provide a scripture reference for this.
Proverbs 16:4
The lord works out everythingfor his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Because Adam was told in advance, which clearly you understand if you are admitting that Eve disobeyed.
The big problem with your replies are your continued insistance of misusing theological terms (omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) to justify your tirade against God. It is not unreasonable to insist you use the words correctly...or redefine them for us and provide evidence for your new definitions.
Rev. said:Please provide a scripture reference for this.
Because Adam was told in advance, which clearly you understand if you are admitting that Eve disobeyed.
The big problem with your replies are your continued insistance of misusing theological terms (omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) to justify your tirade against God. It is not unreasonable to insist you use the words correctly...or redefine them for us and provide evidence for your new definitions.
Donkey1499 said:Kal-el is just mad because Superman isn't real, but God is.
kal-el said:Geese, I don't know, they both have the same amount of supporting evidence.
Donkey1499 said:What do geeses have to do with Superman? A goose is merely a bird that can fly like a bat, but with more grace.
kal-el said:Sorry, I said geese, I wasn't talking about ducks. (JEEZE)
Donkey1499 said:Jeeze, as in the sub-route of "Jeezus"? Or Jeeze, as in the sub-route of "Jeeze-la-weeze"?
kal-el said:Nevermind. :slapme:
kal-el said:Proverbs 16:4Rev. said:Please provide a scripture reference for this.
The lord works out everythingfor his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
kal-el said:How can anyone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, practice obedience?
kal-el said:How can the innocent possibly commit a sin? Ha, Adam became the world's first tattle-tale, telling God that his woman helper gave him the fruit, in turn, she passes the buck onto the serpent. But how can the serpent be there, Doesn't God look over his creation, and deem everything in it good?
kal-el said:All these "omni" properties attributted to God in scripture, are self-contradictory. I do not think I have used these terms wrongly. Omnipotence is cleary a state of being all-powerful, and scripture seems like it attempts to bend over backwards to prove that he is. Omnipresence- being present everywhere at once. One of the faults of created objects is that they are limited by space (just ask King David). Omniscince- a state of being all-knowing. Omnibenevolent- a state of being all-loving.
I don't see any errors in these definitions, do you?
Rev. said:That is hardly about God sitting down and writing a list of people going to hell. It's not God creating wicked people so that Satan won't be lonely down there. This is about God having a plan...He had a plan that man would fellowship with him through all eternity, but in the process of working out his plan, evil came in to the world. For all the accusations made against God about how he does nothing about evil, this shows the opposite is true. He hasn't done nothing...he made a plan. The wicked will be destroyed.
What does right and wrong have to do with it? Obedience is a simple matter of doing as you're told or NOT doing as you're told. You keep wanting to portray good and evil as like a fork in the road...if you go right you're good, if you go left you're evil. But it's not like that at all...choice is a straight road and to go forward is good, but to go in reverse is not.
When choices are clearly explained to you, you are no longer innocent. You have been educated. Adam was told, "Do not eat..." and "If you eat..." There are choices there: to eat or not to eat. And he was told which choice was preferable and why.
You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.
Rev. said:You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.
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