The problem with God

[Rev.]

This statement by you:

"You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean."

Is exactly what every biblical scholar has done for centuries, yet you place your faith in the infallability of these people, and base your understanding of "Gods" message on how "They" wrote it down.

Your statement here is quite confusing...I am placing my faith in the infallibility of Bible Scholars? I base my understanding of God's message based on how Bible Scholars wrote the Bible? Huh?

 

[kal-el]

That is hardly about God sitting down and writing a list of people going to hell.

It's close enough. What he doesn't know who's ultimately going to hell, or what? C'mon you cannot have it both ways, either he does, or he's not omniscient.

It's not God creating wicked people so that Satan won't be lonely down there.

Well, this verse states otherwise:

Proverbs 16:4
The lord works out everything for his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

This is about God having a plan...He had a plan that man would fellowship with him through all eternity, but in the process of working out his plan, evil came in to the world.

Then he had to allow evil to come into the world. If he truly is perfect, and omniscient, nothing can happen without his knowing. Look at Job. Sure Satan got ahold of him and caused him trouble, but God knew, in fact, God gave Satan the green light. And the fact that he does nothing to stop it, either shows he cannot, or just doesn't care.

For all the accusations made against God about how he does nothing about evil, this shows the opposite is true.

How, pray tell, did you come to this conclusion??????

He hasn't done nothing...he made a plan. The wicked will be destroyed.

Nice slogan for a billboard, but I don't believe the authors of the Bible used a double negative like so.:lol:

What does right and wrong have to do with it?

Listen, God has wasted no time in laying down rules, preparing himself for the Mosaic Law. How do Adam and Eve know that they must listen to God? Ha, rather than trying to answer this, Eve wants to sink her teeth into an apple from the forbidden tree, then she adds on to the felony by offering Adam some. How the hell can he punish them, without letting them defend themselves? That's like not even having trials, guilty until proven innocent.

Obedience is a simple matter of doing as you're told or NOT doing as you're told. You keep wanting to portray good and evil as like a fork in the road...if you go right you're good, if you go left you're evil. But it's not like that at all...choice is a straight road and to go forward is good, but to go in reverse is not.

It's not that black and white my friend. How can the new inhabitants of planet earth possibly know what obedience is? Because this was before they ate from the tree of knowledge. (Ex post facto).

When choices are clearly explained to you, you are no longer innocent.

But he didn't give them a choice, more like an order. And like I said, how are they to know to follow it, they haven't eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil yet.

You have been educated.

Thanks.

Adam was told, "Do not eat..." and "If you eat..."

Yes, it seems God fibbed a little.:doh He told Adam the day he ate from it he would surely die, but Adam lived some 930 years.:lol:

There are choices there: to eat or not to eat. And he was told which choice was preferable and why.

If he didn't want them to eat from it, why would he place 2 newly formed humans in a garden with a tree of knowledge, tree of life, and a fig tree in it? Isn't that entrapment? That's kinda like a cop waiting outside a bar to catch someone drunk driving.

You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.

Omnipotent: One having unlimited power, God.http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipotent

Omniscient: One having total knowledge, God.http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omniscient

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneouslyhttp://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipresent

Omnibenevolent The characteristic of being perfectly good.http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Omnibenevolence

I hope those are good enough for you, I have NOT taken them out of context, or mistranslated them. And quote where I used "omnniscient" as another quality altogether please.

I am placing my faith in the infallibility of Bible Scholars? I base my understanding of God's message based on how Bible Scholars wrote the Bible? Huh?

How do you know that was God's intended message? Cleary male-shovinist, primitive men wrote it. Bible scholars merely translated the scripture from Aramic and Hebrew. And not all words are the same. For instance, if you wisper a sentence in the ear of one person in a line, by the time it gets to 20 or 30, it will bear little resemblance to what you originally said. I think that's what he's getting at?

 

[Donkey1499]

Kal-el, obviously you know nothing of the Job story. God allowed Satan to screw with Job because Job was the most loyal man on earth to God. So Satan came to God and pretty much said that well, let's test Job to see if he truly is loyal. So God said ok, because He knew that no matter what Satan did, Job would remain faithful; though Job did lose faith after his wealth, health and family were taken away. But, even though Job faltered, he came back to grace by asking forgivness and praising God. Then God gave Job a family, his health, and a wealth greater than before.

Also, God proves his love by #1, not allowing Satan to kill Job (which means that God valued his life) and #2, God gave more back to Job than what he had before.

 

[kal-el]

Kal-el, obviously you know nothing of the Job story.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, caballo.

God allowed Satan to screw with Job

Then he cannot be omnibenevolent. First off, I thought God asserts that he doesn't speak to sinners? Yet he speaks to Satan and Cain. I don't think it was a mere slip of the tongue. This "God" fellow had better think before he talks.:lol:

because Job was the most loyal man on earth to God.

So, I guess that's a good reason to drop a house on Job's kids?

So Satan came to God and pretty much said that well, let's test Job to see if he truly is loyal.

And God agreed. Full knowing that Satan would drop a house on Job's kids. He cannot be omnibenevolent. If he didn't know Satan would do that, he's not omniscient.

So God said ok, because He knew that no matter what Satan did, Job would remain faithful; though Job did lose faith after his wealth, health and family were taken away.

Irrelevant. An all-knowing God would have no need for such a test of faith, as he already knows the answer.

But, even though Job faltered, he came back to grace by asking forgivness and praising God.

Yea he loves worship, and has a nasty bag of tricks handy for people that refuse to worship him.:lol: (i.e. poison arrows, plagues, curses, etc, etc, etc)

Then God gave Job a family, his health, and a wealth greater than before.

Then Job is going to hell, for to enter the sky fortress you must sell all your possesions, and abandon your family (Job had none left :lol: ) and walk around with the defunct carpenter.

Also, God proves his love by #1, not allowing Satan to kill Job (which means that God valued his life)

Wow, what a just fellow that God is. He values Job's life, but let's Job's kids die.

and #2, God gave more back to Job than what he had before.

Of course, to make up for his killed kids.:lol:

 

[Donkey1499]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, caballo.



Then he cannot be omnibenevolent. First off, I thought God asserts that he doesn't speak to sinners? Yet he speaks to Satan and Cain. I don't think it was a mere slip of the tongue. This "God" fellow had better think before he talks.:lol:




So, I guess that's a good reason to drop a house on Job's kids?




And God agreed. Full knowing that Satan would drop a house on Job's kids. He cannot be omnibenevolent. If he didn't know Satan would do that, he's not omniscient.



Irrelevant. An all-knowing God would have no need for such a test of faith, as he already knows the answer.



Yea he loves worship, and has a nasty bag of tricks handy for people that refuse to worship him.:lol: (i.e. poison arrows, plagues, curses, etc, etc, etc)




Then Job is going to hell, for to enter the sky fortress you must sell all your possesions, and abandon your family (Job had none left :lol: ) and walk around with the defunct carpenter.



Wow, what a just fellow that God is. He values Job's life, but let's Job's kids die.




Of course, to make up for his killed kids.:lol:

I sick of those omni crapola words you use! God never said that!!! So lay off it.

We are all sinners and God speaks with us all; I think He ever said that he wouldn't talk to sinners. God doesn't condemn, people condemn themselves.

But Satan didn't know the outcome, he is a lesser being than God. Besides, Satan is the one who wanted to do the testing. Like let's say for example that the Ford F-150 is accused of blowing up after it reaches 82 mph. But Ford knows that that isn't true, but Nissan wants to attempt to prove otherwise. Then eventually Nissan finds out that Ford was right all along. Anyway, it's quite simple to understand once you pull your head out of your ***.

Obviously Job's kids went to Heaven, don't be rediculous!

To make up for his killed kids? Not to make up, but to reward Job's loyalty.

But all this must be difficult for an egghead like yourself to understand.

 

[kal-el]

I sick of those omni crapola words you use! God never said that!!! So lay off it.

I will if you admit that God is neither of them. Your own theology ascribes these properties to your sky pixie.

We are all sinners and God speaks with us all;

Please refrain from making assertions you cannot prove, thanks.

I think He ever said that he wouldn't talk to sinners.

Ahh, he lied yet again, and he sayed if you pray for them, he won't listen. That doesn't seem to fit in with the loving God concept.:lol:

God doesn't condemn, people condemn themselves.

What??? Try telling all the people that perished during the flood, during God's hissy fit on Sodom and Gemorrah, Aarons sons, the wives and children of 2 princes that challenge Moses, and numerous others (2 many to list here). Heck, God even makes the sun stand still so Joshua's army can extract vengence. Geese, everything comes to a halt to permit biblical revenge. :lol:

But Satan didn't know the outcome, he is a lesser being than God.

He knew how to follow orders. God gave him a "blank check" to do whatever he seen fit, except lay a hand on Job.

Besides, Satan is the one who wanted to do the testing.

Yes, and God permitted it. He voiced no objections. He knew that Job's kids would get killed, yet permitted it.

Like let's say for example that the Ford F-150 is accused of blowing up after it reaches 82 mph. But Ford knows that that isn't true, but Nissan wants to attempt to prove otherwise. Then eventually Nissan finds out that Ford was right all along. Anyway, it's quite simple to understand once you pull your head out of your ***.

What?? Ha, that's alot difference, as cars are not human, hence none get a house dropped on them. What's Nissan gonna do, kill a Ford truck? It's a car!

Obviously Job's kids went to Heaven, don't be rediculous!

I didn't say his kids would take a detour to the burning abyss. I was retorting your claim that God gave Job more wealth than he had previously. But Jesus claims you should sell all your possesions and abandon your family and follow him, if you want eternal life.

To make up for his killed kids? Not to make up, but to reward Job's loyalty.

If an all-powerful God could create a universe, surely he can bring little old Job's kids back to life. Why not resurrect Job's kids for him, instead of giving him wealth? Job's half-way to going to the sky fortress, he already abandoned his family. :lol:

But all this must be difficult for an egghead like yourself to understand.

I realize your frustrated at me pointing out flaws in your linguistics, but why resort to needless vilification?

 

[George_Washington]

Irrelevant. An all-knowing God would have no need for such a test of faith, as he already knows the answer.

Really dude? Think of it this way. If an all knowing God really knows everything to begin with, wouldn't it just be that much easier to test people? Also, an all knowing God might still test people, supposing that he loves them wants to educate them.

 

[kal-el]

Really dude? Think of it this way. If an all knowing God really knows everything to begin with, wouldn't it just be that much easier to test people? Also, an all knowing God might still test people, supposing that he loves them wants to educate them.

Well if he really knows the future, surely he would know all the fuss and hardships humanity would endure, not to mention, right now we can use his help to cure AIDs or world hunger.

 

[Rev.]

STINK!!

I had a really great reply going, but I lost it! Back to the drawing board... (there must be an easier way...)

 

[Donkey1499]

I will if you admit that God is neither of them. Your own theology ascribes these properties to your sky pixie.




Please refrain from making assertions you cannot prove, thanks.



Ahh, he lied yet again, and he sayed if you pray for them, he won't listen. That doesn't seem to fit in with the loving God concept.:lol:



What??? Try telling all the people that perished during the flood, during God's hissy fit on Sodom and Gemorrah, Aarons sons, the wives and children of 2 princes that challenge Moses, and numerous others (2 many to list here). Heck, God even makes the sun stand still so Joshua's army can extract vengence. Geese, everything comes to a halt to permit biblical revenge. :lol:




He knew how to follow orders. God gave him a "blank check" to do whatever he seen fit, except lay a hand on Job.




Yes, and God permitted it. He voiced no objections. He knew that Job's kids would get killed, yet permitted it.



What?? Ha, that's alot difference, as cars are not human, hence none get a house dropped on them. What's Nissan gonna do, kill a Ford truck? It's a car!



I didn't say his kids would take a detour to the burning abyss. I was retorting your claim that God gave Job more wealth than he had previously. But Jesus claims you should sell all your possesions and abandon your family and follow him, if you want eternal life.




If an all-powerful God could create a universe, surely he can bring little old Job's kids back to life. Why not resurrect Job's kids for him, instead of giving him wealth? Job's half-way to going to the sky fortress, he already abandoned his family. :lol:



I realize your frustrated at me pointing out flaws in your linguistics, but why resort to needless vilification?

What's this? An intolerant liberal? Never heard of that! :roll:
Sky pixie.... moronic.

Hmm... let's see. I'm just gonna pick randomly thru this crap and let's see:
The people of the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah all condemned THEMSELVES for being evil. God just gave then what they deserved.
God permitted the killing of Job's kids, because he had the intention of caring for them in Heaven, which is an eternal paradise.
The comparison about God and Ford are in common, if only you'd open your eyes and read abit ssssllllloooowwwweeeerrrrr. Ford is like God, They knew that there was nothing wrong with the product, yet another party disagreed. So Ford (God) allowed Nissan (Satan) to test their own theories and accusations. And Nissan (Satan) wa proven wrong by the product (Job) and Ford (God). It's easy to understand, especially if you're an educated person.
Flaws? The only flaw I have at the moment is allowing you to frustrate me. But you're just a simpleton, so I forgive you out of pity.

 

[Donkey1499]

Well if he really knows the future, surely he would know all the fuss and hardships humanity would endure, not to mention, right now we can use his help to cure AIDs or world hunger.

You don't know the future, therefore you can't guess His intentions. Maybe we will find a cure for AIDs.

 

[kal-el]

What's this? An intolerant liberal? Never heard of that! :roll:
Sky pixie.... moronic.

Ahh, resorting to calling me names again I see. That speaks volumes about your ability to hold a conversation. :lol:

Hmm... let's see. I'm just gonna pick randomly thru this crap and let's see:
The people of the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah all condemned THEMSELVES for being evil.

Irrelevant. God made everything, did he not? And he knows all, correct? Then he knew beforehand they'd be evil, and have to pour his wrath out on them.

God just gave then what they deserved.

What a fair and just guy that "God" is. He created them, knew they would be sinners, and they can't possibly be good, so he punishes them for something he did.

God permitted the killing of Job's kids, because he had the intention of caring for them in Heaven, which is an eternal paradise.

So, he permitted Satan to break the 6th Commandment? Do you dumbly believe everything in the bible? Dude, if Jack and the Beanstalk were in the bible, every Christian would place a tree in their living rooms, hoping to acceses the sky fortress.:lol:

The comparison about God and Ford are in common, if only you'd open your eyes and read abit ssssllllloooowwwweeeerrrrr. Ford is like God,

O, I see, the bible says Ford is like God??

They knew that there was nothing wrong with the product, yet another party disagreed. So Ford (God) allowed Nissan (Satan) to test their own theories and accusations. And Nissan (Satan) wa proven wrong by the product (Job) and Ford (God). It's easy to understand, especially if you're an educated person.
Flaws? The only flaw I have at the moment is allowing you to frustrate me. But you're just a simpleton, so I forgive you out of pity.

I'd log off and go away while you can, to save some face.:lol:

 

[kal-el]

You don't know the future,

Neither does "God" for that matter.

therefore you can't guess His intentions.

And neither can you. I can only make conclusions on him based on what is written about him in the bible, and the bible does a great job of vilifying him.

Maybe we will find a cure for AIDs.

Agreed.

 

[Donkey1499]

Ahh, resorting to calling me names again I see. That speaks volumes about your ability to hold a conversation. :lol:




Irrelevant. God made everything, did he not? And he knows all, correct? Then he knew beforehand they'd be evil, and have to pour his wrath out on them.




What a fair and just guy that "God" is. He created them, knew they would be sinners, and they can't possibly be good, so he punishes them for something he did.




So, he permitted Satan to break the 6th Commandment? Do you dumbly believe everything in the bible? Dude, if Jack and the Beanstalk were in the bible, every Christian would place a tree in their living rooms, hoping to acceses the sky fortress.:lol:




O, I see, the bible says Ford is like God??




I'd log off and go away while you can, to save some face.:lol:

Congratulations! You're the first person on here since January to **** me off. And I ain't gonna let you ruin my "Ha-Ha" mood. So goodbye for now.

 

[kal-el]

Congratulations! You're the first person on here since January to **** me off. And I ain't gonna let you ruin my "Ha-Ha" mood. So goodbye for now.

...Leaves with his tail between his legs.:lol: I hope next time we meet you come armed with some knowledge (is that 2 much to ask?)

 

[Donkey1499]

...Leaves with his tail between his legs.:lol: I hope next time we meet you come armed with some knowledge (is that 2 much to ask?)

Tail between my legs? Never, I'd just rather keep my temper cool than quarrel with you over something you'll never understand. And since you don't understand it you have to make fun of it. I pity your kind, I really do. In fact I hope that you DO go into Heaven when your time comes. And when you get there I'll place my hand on your should and say: "See, Kal-el, if only you had listened to ol'Donks and the others then you wouldn't have been living all miserably on Earth. You would've had hope about the afterlife. But now at least you finally understand and that's all that really matters."

 

[Captain America]

They let donkey's into heaven?

 

[Donkey1499]

They let donkey's into heaven?

Why not? They let dogs go to Heaven, and chickens too.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Why not? They let dogs go to Heaven, and chickens too.

Well I sure don't mind sharing heaven with dogs, chickens, and donkeys. But do we really have to believe that fast spiders and mosquitos go to heaven?

 

[Donkey1499]

Well I sure don't mind sharing heaven with dogs, chickens, and donkeys. But do we really have to believe that fast spiders and mosquitos go to heaven?

Sure, are they not also God's creations? Even skeeters must have a place.

 

[kal-el]

Why not? They let dogs go to Heaven, and chickens too.

Actually, the only animal mentioned in heaven is horses.

 

[Rev.]

It's close enough. What he doesn't know who's ultimately going to hell, or what? C'mon you cannot have it both ways, either he does, or he's not omniscient.

I am not the one making such an issue of God's omniscience. I am not the one confusing "knowing" with "doing" when using this word. I am not the one with the conflict. I am perfectly content to believe that because God is omniscient he can know all things, but because of free will, He has chosen to limit his knowledge so that we can be truely free. Since he's omnipotent, he can do that.

Listen, God has wasted no time in laying down rules, preparing himself for the Mosaic Law. How do Adam and Eve know that they must listen to God? Ha, rather than trying to answer this, Eve wants to sink her teeth into an apple from the forbidden tree, then she adds on to the felony by offering Adam some. How the hell can he punish them, without letting them defend themselves? That's like not even having trials, guilty until proven innocent.

Quit making stuff up.

1) God gave ONE law, and it was not in preparation for the Mosaic Law.

2) They did defend themselves. Adam blamed God, saying, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate." Eve blamed the serpent, saying, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

3) They both admitted what they'd done. They were guilty cause they said they were guilty. Nobody assumed anything.

It's not that black and white my friend. How can the new inhabitants of planet earth possibly know what obedience is? Because this was before they ate from the tree of knowledge. (Ex post facto).

It is that black and white. Obedience does not require the ability to understand the difference between good and evil. Obedience requires the ability to do as one is told. I send my dog to "obedience school" yet he is not capable of discerning good or evil.

But he didn't give them a choice, more like an order. And like I said, how are they to know to follow it, they haven't eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil yet.

They did have a choice...they could do as they were told. Or not.

Yes, it seems God fibbed a little.:doh He told Adam the day he ate from it he would surely die, but Adam lived some 930 years.:lol:

There are two deaths to be considered...spiritual death and physical death. Adam died spiritually that day. His fellowship with God was severed. And later, he died physically which not originally intended. So what God said would happen did indeed happen. God does not lie.

Omnipotent: One having unlimited power, God.http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipotent

Omniscient: One having total knowledge, God.http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omniscient

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneouslyhttp://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipresent

Omnibenevolent The characteristic of being perfectly good.http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Omnibenevolence

I hope those are good enough for you, I have NOT taken them out of context, or mistranslated them. And quote where I used "omnniscient" as another quality altogether please.

I lost a whole post I'd spent an hour on going back to quote you, so if you don't mind, I'll pass. I agree that you have what would be considered the commonly accepted definitions. But the definitions beg further explaination. For example, "one having total knowledge"...knowledge of what? A person? An event? Is it possible to possess that knowledge but choose to not use it? Why or why not?

"One having unlimited power" begs your favorite question "Can God create a rock he can't lift?" "Present everywhere simultaneously" So is God in hell? The characterisitic of being perfectly good...does it mean his actions are always good or that he allows only good to happen? What do we mean by good. What do we mean by perfect? What scriptures to we use to inform our qualification of these definitions? Why? What do those verses really mean?

My point is theology (talk about God) requires more than just throwing around words. They mean something specific, and if the word dishonors God, we Christians have to rethink our understanding of that word. You are throwing around these words to paint God in the worst possible light...but because you're misusing the words and misrepresenting scripture, you're just painting yourself as an idiot. If you want to prove a scientist wrong, you have to use his words correctly or prove he's misusing them. If you want to prove a Christian wrong, take some time to learn the language (and maybe read the Bible passages you keep citing).

How do you know that was God's intended message? Cleary male-shovinist, primitive men wrote it. Bible scholars merely translated the scripture from Aramic and Hebrew. And not all words are the same. For instance, if you wisper a sentence in the ear of one person in a line, by the time it gets to 20 or 30, it will bear little resemblance to what you originally said. I think that's what he's getting at?

I kinda thought that's where he might be going. It helps to know someone read it the same way I did. Thanks!

 

[justone]

If God is omnipotent, can he create another omnipotent entity? Can he build a wall so tough that even he cannot tear it down? Can he defeat Iron chariots? :lol:

Sure, He can. He is Almighty. Do you really want Him to show you the technical description of the process? Would you be able to read? Are you just in the mood to watch Him performing some tricks for you? You want him jump over His head and you would give him some sugar?

All this is accomplished by an omnipotent God who can't even ensure that even half of his creation believes that he even exists.LOL

Yes He can, He is Almighty. Why He did not? A number of educated guesses were submitted to you based on the Bible. If He is Almighty, would you allow Him to have fun in His way, without your approval? Please. Also let me have some fun. If He made you to believe, what fun would I have arguing to you and confirming my faith in front of Him.

Look, nothing evil can come out of something infinitley good, it's impossible.

Why? Good intentions sometimes pave way to hell. But if you accent “”infinitely,”” -- all you problems with atrocities and killing and etc are cancelled by your own sentence. God is infinitely , no evil is coming out., you shoot yourself

And we cannot have free will, cause how can a perfect God run things, if human decisions interfere?

He may want them interfere in the way He designed interference. His fun may be to play with the toy called interference. He is perfect in his design. Actually again and again, if I see you and me exercising our free wills as long as we are alive, please don’t tell me free will does not exist. Nobody forces you. Go and reread everything I said to you in previous posts. If that did answer free will questions, either you are deaf or I am incapable to tell .

O, so Hitler exterminating 3 million Jews was not an atrocity?

I am saying when you no kind and good God in Hitler’s actions and call them atrocities introducing your language into the Bible, Jews still preserved their faith in God, as He was described in the in the Bible – almighty and loving and making rules of the game. Therefore they show the example of the right look at the atrocities, and an example of servicing to God. Your superstitions about atrocities etc do not scare Jews from their faith..

Blatant lie. The carpenter exersizes judgement quite alot actually. Even Paul has judgeing in his arsenal.

You are talking about different judgment #2 now. Not the judgment #1 which was in the question before.

I'm not too sure of what you mean by this, but look at it this way. If God is omniscinet and knows the future, he cannot be omnibenevolent,
Cause it says numerous times in the bible that good and evil come from this God of yours, and he knowingly let atrocities happen to us, and the fact that he doesn't even attempt to stop them, speaks volumes about his omnipotence.

See the above about Jews who went through the atrocities; look at sufferings of the first Christians. It all turns into glorifying God in the end. Besides of that, there is no word ‘’atrocities’’ in the Bible, let me translate it as your name for death. God may turn death into eternal life and you may have even more fun there. And the news for you is - you will die. And many people die suffering. Are you ready? Acceptance of God is also acceptance and readiness for death and suffering. Let me help you to formulate another question for Christians. If God is loving why we have to die?
Tell me when would you like to die? 75 years is enough for you? 79? 84? 212?

Ha, if he was loving, he could create robots instead, who aren't programmed to do "evil", hence no atrocities, hence no sin, hence no need to string up the carpenter.

If He wanted to create robots He would do, without your advice. Also it seems that is a part of His program, because He programmed us to create robots. It is like he is having double fun – both us and robots.
No sin =no choice= robots = God would may be just bored.

What are you talking about? The mere fact that there's evil in this world, tells me that this God cannot be omnibenevolent. Why would a loving God create people destined for hell, and why would he force people to spend eternity with him? And last time I checked, if you "steal" or committ any minor sin, you do not get a life sentence, so is it just that God hands out infinite suffering for crimes perpetrated in a human lifetime?

You do not want to understand evil. God did not create people destined for hell. He does not force you to heaven. Sins are not minor. The same again and again – you have an eternity to wear people out or you are deaf?

Actaully, it seems like there's 2 different Gods in the bible. In the OT, he was an egotistical, vengeful, baleful, murdering thug of a diety, and in the NT, supposedly he is the very same insecure fellow, who comes to earth in a human embryo, is born in a smelly stable, spends at least a year as a crying infant, and 16 more as a parent-disobeying kid, and finally, after hiding out like a ****ing criminal, dies the death like a theif, and lies in a tomb for 3 days.:lol:

If the ways God does things through His Son and His servants don’t not satisfy your imagination of how and what God should have done (– if you would prefer Jesus to be an “obeying kid”) – you always are welcome to make suggestions. The common suggestion I have mostly heard is for God to make a personal visit to you, show some magical tricks, and leave you with a ton of money. Then you spend money, forget His face and he has to start all over. What else could be the purpose of God? Or maybe you would prefer Him to turn you into an eternally happy idiot with no worries and just with a program to produce words of prayer? Make suggestions He always hears you.

So if you are the best person on earth, always striving to aid others, donate all your possesions to the poor, if you don't buy into the Christian dogma, you're going to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you are doing things which are imposed by the Christian dogma you are buying the Christian dogma. And you will be judged not by your words but by your deeds. According to the Bible you will go to heaven. If doing the things you do not run around saying- God look at me I am doing your things and I am wearing all your symbols all over me, and I always sneak in your Bible along with good things, -- you chances will double.

O man, poetic babbling.

It is a very good point. Right to the heart of the problem. The Bible compresses all knowledge of what we are and what we are doing in the meaning which is the only one personally important for us (unless it is personally important for you to know your genetic code or laws of kinetics in your personal life). It compresses knowledge and laws of life and death, and all sides and parameters of a complicated human being and society of human beings in the perspective which does not change with time. It compresses it in a very shot form of written information. It is like a zip file called “all about you what is really important for you personally. “ As it is noticed a lot of parabolas and analogies, and strict means of pure poetry had been used to compress the file. If you don’t have the right software to read the code of the file you cannot read it. Rejecting poetic bubbling shows incapability of your software to read the file. As the result you have a meaningless row of symbols on your monitor instead of the most important messages.
You make out some words but you cannot see the whole message.
Each of the phrases of the Bible is valid only in the context of the phrases surrounding it. If you take a sentence from it’s surroundings ( an analogy) and bring it to another place of the bible to compare it with a sentence used in surroundings of pure poetry – you certainly will be getting nonsense, especially if you try to read both on your terms of popular culture surroundings. If you read the Bible on terms of the Bible, like you read math book on terms of the math, Shakespeare on terms of Shakespeare, comics on terms of comics, you would get the right message. So far your software is not developed and your attempt to read the Bible on terms of comics brings comic results. Your quotes will be endlessly and meaninglessly covered by quotes of your opponents to extend the comedy and run it in circles. Have fun if it is your choice. I wash my hands.

 

[kal-el]

I am not the one making such an issue of God's omniscience.

Why are you condemning me for attacking one of his faults? He cleary is not omniscient. Actually, he's not omni anything, as they all contradict eachother.

I am not the one confusing "knowing" with "doing" when using this word. I am not the one with the conflict.

Say what?

I am perfectly content to believe that because God is omniscient he can know all things, but because of free will, He has chosen to limit his knowledge so that we can be truely free. Since he's omnipotent, he can do that.

So if he does that, I gather he isn't omniscient then?

Quit making stuff up.

I'm manufacturing nothing. Everything I have said is in the bible.

1) God gave ONE law, and it was not in preparation for the Mosaic Law.

I suppose this is scripture based? While we're on the subject, please provide supporting scripture for this entreaty:

For all the accusations made against God about how he does nothing about evil, this shows the opposite is true.

2) They did defend themselves. Adam blamed God, saying, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate." Eve blamed the serpent, saying, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Ah, a classic case of "pass the buck". Adam should have grown some balls and asked this "God" fellow why the hell he planted a forbidden tree right smack dab in the middle of a garden? Dude, that's like putting a loaded gun in front of a little child. What he didn't know they were gonna eat from it? There's your omniscient trait right there. Ha, I wasn't aware that God was a tailor also, as he fashions clothes for Adam and Eve.:lol: That's weird, no sewing machine, no needle and thread, anyone would consider this task insurmountable, but not God, for he has the ability to create a universe, but cannot build an ark the size of an ocean liner.

3) They both admitted what they'd done.

Of course they did, it's kinda obvious that they ate from the "tree of knowledge", because they knew they were in the buff.

They were guilty cause they said they were guilty. Nobody assumed anything.

Man, this "God" fella is a tough customer, he makes child-bearing rough on all women, the snake must crawl on its belly, and Adam must eat bread with a sweaty face and return to dust.:lol:

It is that black and white. Obedience does not require the ability to understand the difference between good and evil. Obedience requires the ability to do as one is told. I send my dog to "obedience school" yet he is not capable of discerning good or evil.

In that case we don't have "free-will", as God infringed on it. I can see why they ate the fruit, Adam was probably famished as God knocked him unconcious, then took a rib from him, if that's not enough, he probably had a major migraine from naming every single animal.:lol:

They did have a choice...they could do as they were told. Or not.

Look, if this God of yours is all-powerful, he could have made it so they didn't eat from the tree. He could have put cherubims with flaming swords guarding the tree. He did with the tree of life, cause he thought Adam and Eve were like him/them, and didn't benefit from the first fiasco.

There are two deaths to be considered...spiritual death and physical death. Adam died spiritually that day. His fellowship with God was severed. And later, he died physically which not originally intended. So what God said would happen did indeed happen.

That's neither here nor there. Can you please provide the chapter and verse where it says that Adam died spiritually?

God does not lie.

C'mon, you're making this too easy for me:

1 Kings 22:23
So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.

And this loving chap kills his own prophets for believeing his lies.

I lost a whole post I'd spent an hour on going back to quote you, so if you don't mind, I'll pass.

Yea that sucks, I lost some posts that took me forever too.

I agree that you have what would be considered the commonly accepted definitions. But the definitions beg further explaination. For example, "one having total knowledge"...knowledge of what? A person? An event? Is it possible to possess that knowledge but choose to not use it? Why or why not?

If you are omniscient, you cannot make any choices or learn anything new, and that rules out omnipotence also.

"One having unlimited power" begs your favorite question "Can God create a rock he can't lift?" "Present everywhere simultaneously" So is God in hell? The characterisitic of being perfectly good...does it mean his actions are always good or that he allows only good to happen? What do we mean by good. What do we mean by perfect? What scriptures to we use to inform our qualification of these definitions? Why? What do those verses really mean?

omnipotent Jer. 32:26-27
omnipresent Jer 23:23-24
omniscient Prov 5:21
omnibenevolent 1 John 4:8

My point is theology (talk about God) requires more than just throwing around words. They mean something specific, and if the word dishonors God, we Christians have to rethink our understanding of that word. You are throwing around these words to paint God in the worst possible light...but because you're misusing the words and misrepresenting scripture, you're just painting yourself as an idiot. If you want to prove a scientist wrong, you have to use his words correctly or prove he's misusing them. If you want to prove a Christian wrong, take some time to learn the language (and maybe read the Bible passages you keep citing).

Actually theology is talk about what the bible teaches us about God and his creation. How do you know I'm misusing words? Misrepresenting scripture? Who's to say you aren't doing that? One step ahead ya there, I've read the bible, thankyou. O, if being an idiot means handing you your ***, then I'm guilty.:lol:

 

[kal-el]

Sure, He can. He is Almighty.

Wow, I thought you ran off there. Glad to see ya back in the swing of things.:2razz: O, if he's Superman, iron chariots are his krytponite:

Judges 1:19
The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

And God can create another omnipotent God? Well, if he can, if this other God is all-powerful, God 1 cannot defeat him.

Do you really want Him to show you the technical description of the process? Would you be able to read? Are you just in the mood to watch Him performing some tricks for you? You want him jump over His head and you would give him some sugar?

No need, if he'd show up and sit on my futon, that'll make me happy.

Yes He can, He is Almighty.

Then why did he lose a wrestling match to Jacob, let Joseph get carted away to jail, lose a fight to iron chariots? Doesn't sound so mighty to me.

Why He did not? A number of educated guesses were submitted to you based on the Bible.

"Guesses" I thought the bible was the innerant word of God, hence no need for guesses.

If He is Almighty, would you allow Him to have fun in His way, without your approval?

Impossible. If he's omniscient he cannot show any emotions, as they are a reaction to new knowledge.

Please. Also let me have some fun.

Please clarify that. Did your kid brother write this post?

If He made you to believe, what fun would I have arguing to you and confirming my faith in front of Him.

He's in front of you, I thought no one can see his face and live? O wait, Moses did.

Why? Good intentions sometimes pave way to hell. But if you accent “”infinitely,”” -- all you problems with atrocities and killing and etc are cancelled by your own sentence. God is infinitely , no evil is coming out., you shoot yourself

Look, after he created everything, he looked over all his creation and deemed it good, but after that, Lucifer was in the garden. If said entity is perfect, it cannot recreate inperfect offspring. Actaully, the question of if humans are to be blamed for evil puts this "God" in need of an apologist, as he isn't shy of claiming that he is the source of good and evil.

He may want them interfere in the way He designed interference.

Huh? Please put a bit more thought into your posts. Thanks.

His fun may be to play with the toy called interference.

False. He cannot show any emotions. The mere fact that the Bible God shows various emotions, and is supposedly omniscient, shows that he is non-existant.

He is perfect in his design.

O, so we live in a perfect world?

Actually again and again,

Well now, the authors of the bible disagree with you there. He has second thoughts about creating humans, and sends flood waters for 40 days, killing every living thing except the 8 who he deemed righteous.

if I see you and me exercising our free wills as long as we are alive, please don’t tell me free will does not exist. Nobody forces you. Go and reread everything I said to you in previous posts. If that did answer free will questions, either you are deaf or I am incapable to tell .

I see why you think we have free will. But it is impossible if God is the omniscient creator diety. Say I plan to go to work in 2 hours, but while I'm driving, I turn around as I forgot something. An omniscient God already knows this, so I must do this. Just like I said before, He knew thousands of years ago that I would type this sentence, and I think that I am choosing to type this, but I'm only doing what he already knows.

I am saying when you no kind and good God in Hitler’s actions and call them atrocities introducing your language into the Bible, Jews still preserved their faith in God, as He was described in the in the Bible – almighty and loving and making rules of the game. Therefore they show the example of the right look at the atrocities, and an example of servicing to God. Your superstitions about atrocities etc do not scare Jews from their faith..

Let me get this right...you're attempting to glorify atrocities. I hope I'm reading that wrong.

You are talking about different judgment #2 now. Not the judgment #1 which was in the question before.

Actually, heaven sounds like a damn courtroom with everyone and their brother judging.

See the above about Jews who went through the atrocities; look at sufferings of the first Christians. It all turns into glorifying God in the end.

So the ends justify the means?

Besides of that, there is no word ‘’atrocities’’ in the Bible, let me translate it as your name for death. God may turn death into eternal life and you may have even more fun there. And the news for you is - you will die. And many people die suffering. Are you ready? Acceptance of God is also acceptance and readiness for death and suffering. Let me help you to formulate another question for Christians. If God is loving why we have to die?
Tell me when would you like to die? 75 years is enough for you? 79? 84? 212?

Are you certain your younger brother didn't slap this together. Maybe he snuck on your computer while you were in the bathroom firing a missle.:lol:

If He wanted to create robots He would do, without your advice. Also it seems that is a part of His program, because He programmed us to create robots. It is like he is having double fun – both us and robots.
No sin =no choice= robots = God would may be just bored.

Please if you cannot present at least semi-intelligent counterclaims, please refrain from posting anything. It just wastes my time as I must respond to them.

You do not want to understand evil. God did not create people destined for hell.

Uhh, the bible states that we all have a destiny, and we cannot do anything to change it, not to mention it also states he works out a day of disaster for the wicked. That sounds alot like he knows some are going to hell.

He does not force you to heaven.

Then he forces you to go to hell, as there are only 2 options.

Sins are not minor.

You're telling me, this thug of a diety uses plagues, poison arrows, swords, armies, and hitmen to take out "sinners.":lol:

The same again and again – you have an eternity to wear people out or you are deaf?

What are you saying?

If the ways God does things through His Son and His servants don’t not satisfy your imagination of how and what God should have done (– if you would prefer Jesus to be an “obeying kid”) – you always are welcome to make suggestions. The common suggestion I have mostly heard is for God to make a personal visit to you, show some magical tricks, and leave you with a ton of money. Then you spend money, forget His face and he has to start all over. What else could be the purpose of God? Or maybe you would prefer Him to turn you into an eternally happy idiot with no worries and just with a program to produce words of prayer? Make suggestions He always hears you.

I know it's rather petty pointing out grammer mistakes, but double negatives really get to me. OR you could simply provide an unphotoshopped picture of him standing next to you.

If you are doing things which are imposed by the Christian dogma you are buying the Christian dogma. And you will be judged not by your words but by your deeds. According to the Bible you will go to heaven. If doing the things you do not run around saying- God look at me I am doing your things and I am wearing all your symbols all over me, and I always sneak in your Bible along with good things, -- you chances will double.

Nope. The carpenter says all you must do to set foot in the heavenly abode is follow a few commandments, none involve worshipping him or the skydaddy.

If you don’t have the right software to read the code of the file you cannot read it. Rejecting poetic bubbling shows incapability of your software to read the file. As the result you have a meaningless row of symbols on your monitor instead of the most important messages.
Shakespeare on terms of Shakespeare, comics on terms of comics, you would get the right message. So far your software is not developed and your attempt to read the Bible on terms of comics brings comic results. Your quotes will be endlessly and meaninglessly covered by quotes of your opponents to extend the comedy and run it in circles. Have fun if it is your choice. I wash my hands.

.... running to get some asprin.:lol: