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The problem with God

Rev.

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kal-el said:
Yes, as a matter of fact, your sky pixie created hell, and it's very first occupants were angels that caused a rocus in heaven.(which he had to forsee, but couldn't stop). The bible doesn't give an account of when he created the angels, but I guess it must have been before he created the universe, because Satan had already turned and was in the garden as a serpent.

God doesn't see our lives as a written story and we are forced along according to the script we have. God is omnicient in that he knows all of me...even my deepest secrets. He knows my heart and he knows how I think. He knows my strengths and weaknesses. When I have a choice to make, He knows where each of those choices could lead and which one I am most likely to make if left to my own devices...but my possible choices can change completely if my next-door neighbor chooses to eat something different for breakfast. The future is not predetermined the way you say.

kal-el said:
Actually, the God of the bible utilizes threats and violence to coerse people to follow him, so they really have no choice.

You've read the Bible, right? So you read the part where the Israelites entered into a contract with God. And you know about all the benefits they were entitled to by honoring the contract. The "threats and violence" you refer to were the penalty for breaking the contract. Do you consider "late fees" on your credit cards "threats and violence" to "coerce" you into making payments or do you accept that penalties are a necessary part of legal agreements?

kal-el said:
What I don't quite get is why fundie Christians think a single abortion is so terrible, and think it's great that God drowned babies, pregnant women, all evildoers, etc. over 40 days? And if he can create the universe, why can't he make an ark, instead he had the alcoholic Noah slap it together, at a time when tools weren't yet invented nonetheless.

Well, I'm not a fundie Christian so I hesitate to speak on their behalf, but I think it goes like this: God created the world. It's His. He can destroy it if He wants. God created babies. They're His. We do not have the right to destroy them.

I'm not sure where you're going with the ark thing.

kal-el said:
Our God, as opposed to others. It seems this "God" fellow gets quite on edge about Jews worshipping other Gods that he uses threats once again:

You totally missed my emphasis, but so long as you're here, God was "on edge" because the whole purpose of the contract was that God would be Israel's God and they would be His people. They agreed. They promised. But they broke their promise.
 

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Naughty Nurse said:
I'm sorry, but that sounds so much like a total cop-out. "I can't prove my god exists because that is the nature of my god."

It isn't a cop out if it is true. I can't prove my god exists because I ain't God.
 

AlbqOwl

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kal-el said:
Let me ask you something. If you believe in God so much, have you even taken the time to read his book?:bs Do I have to quote passages where it says God created everything, good AND evil?.

Yes, I have read it. And I have taught it at college level.

The Bible is not "God's book". The Bible is a collection of numerous ancient manuscripts spanning thousands of years. These manuscripts contain history, poetry, symbolism, metaphor, parable, allegory, instruction, prophecy, eye witness accounts, and myth not intended to deceive but to explain and illustrate. Every manuscript was written down by one or several people attempting to explain or record their understanding of God and what they believed to be their encounters and relationship with Him.

Those with an open mind who take the time to educate themselves on what is actually contained in these manuscripts will invariably be blessed by the exercise. But you have to read the scriptures through the eyes and experience of those who wrote them. Those, believers and nonbelievers alike, who attempt to read and interpret the scriptures through 21st century understanding will most often get it wrong.

I don't think you're man who sky-rocketed up to heaven does either. After reading the Bible, he doesn't strike me as one who is an intellectual giant.:lol:

What man would that be?

:rofl I guess you're illuding to your imaginary friend to which there isn't even a shred of evidence for his existence?

Spoken like a true Atheist who desperately needs to convince himself there is no God. You do not know what evidence I have. Why is it so important to you to believe that my 'friend' is imaginary?

Wow, your beliefs are totally opposite to what the Bible says. I hope you're not basing your beleif on the Bible. The bible states that Satan introduced sin when he turned Eve, but it goes on to say that God created everything. So being omniscient, he created Satan with the full knowledge that he would be evil and introduce sin into the world, thus he cannot be omnibenevolent.

No, actually my beliefs re sin are quite supported by what the Bible says. The Biblically educated know that.

Even though to us it may seem like we have "free will", to an omniscvient creator, it's truly laughable. For instance if he knows that in 2 hours I will go out, I must go out in 2 hours, even though at that time it seems to me like I'm making the choice. We do not have free will.

Or there is another way to look at it. An omniscient God could see the results and outcome if a person continued on his/her present course. And an omniscient God could see different results and outcome if a person changed his/her mind and chose a different course. Free will would suggest that that is up to us with no interference from God.

No one has to try, it's all written in black and white, clearly so anyone can see.

Aesop's Fables are written in black and white, clearly so anyone can see. Do you take them as what the author absolutely claims to have observed and is reporting? Or do you see them as something other than what is clearly written? Why would one need to treat a similar allegory in the Bible any differently?

If you read a paragraph about George Washington at Valley Forge, do you conclude that this one paragraph is all there is to the story? Or do you expect that much was left out of the telling? Why would you think the Bible was any different?

If you read a sentence: "A car hit a pedestrian" you have an immediate mental image of what happened. Nobody has to describe a car to you or that it most likely had a driver or explain what a pedestrian is. The writer sees no reason to explain these things that are so obvious to us now. But would it be as clearly understood by somebody unschooled in 21st century history and culture reading that sentence four or five thousand years from now?

Yes, what if it turns out that when we die there is a God, just not the BibleGod. And he would definetly hate all those who worshipped the wrong God (Christians), so atheists, not believeing in any God would have a clean slate.

Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The Atheist, however, makes a religion of denying an existence of God and attempting to destroy the faith of believers. I believe a rational God would forgive ignorance. But I believe that God is against sin because sin hurts believe either directly or cumulatively. And I have to believe there is an accounting at some point in some way for those who intentionally hurt others.

Nope, but if your make-believe sky gremlin exists, and wants "the word" spread to everyone, you would think an omnipotent entity wouldn't entrust delusionals with this utmost important message.


I don't believe He does. But you can't allow free will and at the same time force somebody to listen now can you?
 
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talloulou

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The problem with God is that he/she/it is completely undefined and open to any and all subjective interpretations.
 

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talloulou said:
The problem with God is that he/she/it is completely undefined and open to any and all subjective interpretations.

Which is exactly why this debate will never be finished. It's just one of those fun things to debate about because their is no actual proof either way.
 

kal-el

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Rev. said:
God doesn't see our lives as a written story and we are forced along according to the script we have.

I didn't say he sees it like a written story, even though we are not "physically" forced to perfrom a certain act, if an omniscient entity knows what we are going to do in the future, we have to do that act. At the time, it very much seems to us like we are choosing to act that way, free will if you may, but to an omniscient entity, it's a grand delusion. Let's take the bible for example, I don't know were Christians came up with the concept that this diety is omniscient, cause when his chosen people are wandering in the desert for 40 years, they become corrupted, and worship their neighboring tribes gods; that dosen't say much about your God's forsight.:lol:


God is omnicient in that he knows all of me...even my deepest secrets.

Then they're not secrets. If you believe a man in the clouds is sitting in heaven keeping a watchful eye on you, shaking his finger at you, just waiting for you to slip up, and the only reason you have to act straight is because this loving God has to threaten humanity with a burning furnace, just so his creation will bow down and worship him, does this sound like the loving God stereotype? And you better hope in any of your "secrets" that you have done nothing to break his commandments, cause he has a collasal arsenal of torments he can utilize at his discression. Even the Pentagon would drool.:lol:

He knows my heart and he knows how I think.

Wow, that must be unique to you then, cause it goes against the happenings of the bible. For instance, he din't know what Cain did right away, "What have you done?" He didn't know where Adam was hiding, and in 1 Kings, God has a hissy fit because Ahab has failed to kill the king of Syria, which God commanded.

He knows my strengths and weaknesses.

Yet he doesn't know his own. He could not defeat iron chariots and he could not defeat Jacob in a wresting match. Being is you seem to have so many personal experiences with this fellow, and since you cannot prove it, either you are arrantly being less than honest or you truly believe you have personal experiences with this diety and thus you are apparitional.


When I have a choice to make, He knows where each of those choices could lead and which one I am most likely to make if left to my own devices...

Once again, it must be unique to you, cause in the bible he doesn't know beforehand that Cain will kill Abel, and being the cretin that he is, only common sense will tell you that if you put two helpless humans in a garden and place a forbidden tree right smack in the middle of it, that it's only a matter of time before they eat from it, and yet this God punished them for exersizing their "free will." (Which BTW, he gave them)

but my possible choices can change completely if my next-door neighbor chooses to eat something different for breakfast. The future is not predetermined the way you say.

Sure it is, an omniscinet creator ultimately knows if you are going to change your mind. Like I said, to us it seems like we are freely choosing, but to him who knows all, it's a grand delusion.


You've read the Bible, right?

Yep.

So you read the part where the Israelites entered into a contract with God. And you know about all the benefits they were entitled to by honoring the contract. The "threats and violence" you refer to were the penalty for breaking the contract. Do you consider "late fees" on your credit cards "threats and violence" to "coerce" you into making payments or do you accept that penalties are a necessary part of legal agreements?

Yes, but that doesn't fit in with the loving sterotype. If he is really omniscient, he would know if his chosen people are going to breach a contract beforehand.


Well, I'm not a fundie Christian so I hesitate to speak on their behalf, but I think it goes like this: God created the world. It's His. He can destroy it if He wants.

Which he has. And if he was truly omniscient, like some like to pretend, he wouldn't have to drown all of humanity, (except the 9 which he deemed "righteous) and all the animals, and every living thing on earth. That was the single biggest act of genocide. All of the genocides of all the despots throughout history pales in comparison with this massive slaughter committed by your loving God. He should've got a humanitarian of the year award.:lol:

God created babies.

And God dashes them into pieces, and makes them suffer account of their parents crimes.

They're His. We do not have the right to destroy them.

There is no them, they're fetuses. That's why abortion is legal, so until you can prove otherwise, please retract that assertion, thanks.

I'm not sure where you're going with the ark thing.

I'm saying that an omnipotent God that created the universe, surely can make an ark. Why did he pass the buck onto an alcoholic in a time when their certainly wasn't any tools?


You totally missed my emphasis, but so long as you're here, God was "on edge" because the whole purpose of the contract was that God would be Israel's God and they would be His people. They agreed. They promised. But they broke their promise.

Okay, let's look at a passage from Numbers. The Jews were somewhat weary and dissatisfied while on their way to the Promised Land, cause they had no flesh to eat like they had in Egypt, and they start cryin and complaining. So God typically loses his temper and sends an abundancy of quail, and as the Jews start to eat, this loving God smotes them with a great plague.
 
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kal-el

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AlbqOwl said:
Yes, I have read it. And I have taught it at college level.

Then I guess congrats are in order.

The Bible is not "God's book".

A vast majority of Christians would surely disagree with you.

The Bible is a collection of numerous ancient manuscripts spanning thousands of years. These manuscripts contain history, poetry, symbolism, metaphor, parable, allegory, instruction, prophecy, eye witness accounts, and myth not intended to deceive but to explain and illustrate. Every manuscript was written down by one or several people attempting to explain or record their understanding of God and what they believed to be their encounters and relationship with Him.

I see you have some background on the bible, that's more than I can say about most Christians.

Those with an open mind who take the time to educate themselves on what is actually contained in these manuscripts will invariably be blessed by the exercise. But you have to read the scriptures through the eyes and experience of those who wrote them. Those, believers and nonbelievers alike, who attempt to read and interpret the scriptures through 21st century understanding will most often get it wrong.

Listen, reading the bible is what turned me into an atheist. Answer me this: Why is it ok to display a replica of a suffering man on a cross, but I bet very few people would flaunt a figure in an electric chair. I think the Christian Torture Symbol violates sensitivity on so many levels.


What man would that be?

The same man who converes regularly with people in the OT, but must have a prolonged case of laryngitis, as no one has heard a chirp from him for thousands of years.:lol:


Spoken like a true Atheist who desperately needs to convince himself there is no God. You do not know what evidence I have. Why is it so important to you to believe that my 'friend' is imaginary?

I don't need to convince myself, just the fact that there's evil present in the world is enough proof for me. If he truly is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, he can do away with all the evil. I'll continue to think you're friend is imaginary until you provide some observational evidence for such. Like I said, I have a comfy chair in my room just waiting for God to show up and park his fat keister on.:lol:


No, actually my beliefs re sin are quite supported by what the Bible says. The Biblically educated know that.

Dude, all good and evil come from God. Understand?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and created disaster, I, the lord do all these things.

Lamentations 3:38
Is it not from the mouth of the most high that both calamities and good things come?

Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When a disaster comes to a city, has not the lord caused it?


Or there is another way to look at it. An omniscient God could see the results and outcome if a person continued on his/her present course. And an omniscient God could see different results and outcome if a person changed his/her mind and chose a different course. Free will would suggest that that is up to us with no interference from God.

If the results and/or outcome of our path is bad, a Loving God would only want the best for his creation, and being omnipotent, nothing can stand in his way of achieving that goal.


Aesop's Fables are written in black and white, clearly so anyone can see. Do you take them as what the author absolutely claims to have observed and is reporting? Or do you see them as something other than what is clearly written? Why would one need to treat a similar allegory in the Bible any differently?

Well, let me ask you this: does any portion of the bible remotely suggest than any of it is fictional? There's no warning label, it's not in the child's section at bookstores, in fact, it's the best seller. The bible does not allude to the fact that any of it is fiction.

If you read a paragraph about George Washington at Valley Forge, do you conclude that this one paragraph is all there is to the story? Or do you expect that much was left out of the telling? Why would you think the Bible was any different?

Look, the bible goes to drastic lenghts to portry it as the word of an omnipotent God. If it is his book, why leave out certain parts? Being omniscient, he would know humanity would want to know everything about its past, so if the bible's not perfect, God is not perfect.



Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The Atheist, however, makes a religion of denying an existence of God and attempting to destroy the faith of believers. I believe a rational God would forgive ignorance.

What leads you to believe that. Surely not the bible. And if you consider ignorance the abandonment of all logic and reason, I'll agree with ya.


But I believe that God is against sin because sin hurts believe either directly or cumulatively. And I have to believe there is an accounting at some point in some way for those who intentionally hurt others.

Then in that case, who's gonna hold God accountable for the millions of people he killed or ordered others to kill in his name?



I don't believe He does. But you can't allow free will and at the same time force somebody to listen now can you?

I'd rather be forced to listen, because this rancorous diety loves torturing and killing people for not worshipping him. Besides, he would already knows some are rational, and logical, and need supporting evidence before they jump into worship, so why doesn't he show himself? Is he shy?
 

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Better hope He doesn't subscribe to DebatePolitics.com.:doh
 

kal-el

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XShipRider said:
Better hope He doesn't subscribe to DebatePolitics.com.:doh

Yea, you know it, I'll be in real trouble then.:lol:
 

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kal-el said:
Then I guess congrats are in order.



A vast majority of Christians would surely disagree with you.



I see you have some background on the bible, that's more than I can say about most Christians.



Listen, reading the bible is what turned me into an atheist. Answer me this: Why is it ok to display a replica of a suffering man on a cross, but I bet very few people would flaunt a figure in an electric chair. I think the Christian Torture Symbol violates sensitivity on so many levels.




The same man who converes regularly with people in the OT, but must have a prolonged case of laryngitis, as no one has heard a chirp from him for thousands of years.:lol:




I don't need to convince myself, just the fact that there's evil present in the world is enough proof for me. If he truly is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, he can do away with all the evil. I'll continue to think you're friend is imaginary until you provide some observational evidence for such. Like I said, I have a comfy chair in my room just waiting for God to show up and park his fat keister on.:lol:




Dude, all good and evil come from God. Understand?










If the results and/or outcome of our path is bad, a Loving God would only want the best for his creation, and being omnipotent, nothing can stand in his way of achieving that goal.




Well, let me ask you this: does any portion of the bible remotely suggest than any of it is fictional? There's no warning label, it's not in the child's section at bookstores, in fact, it's the best seller. The bible does not allude to the fact that any of it is fiction.



Look, the bible goes to drastic lenghts to portry it as the word of an omnipotent God. If it is his book, why leave out certain parts? Being omniscient, he would know humanity would want to know everything about its past, so if the bible's not perfect, God is not perfect.





What leads you to believe that. Surely not the bible. And if you consider ignorance the abandonment of all logic and reason, I'll agree with ya.




Then in that case, who's gonna hold God accountable for the millions of people he killed or ordered others to kill in his name?





I'd rather be forced to listen, because this rancorous diety loves torturing and killing people for not worshipping him. Besides, he would already knows some are rational, and logical, and need supporting evidence before they jump into worship, so why doesn't he show himself? Is he shy?

I would be extremely surprised that anybody who was not a Christian would have a clue about what most Christians believe about most things.

You made a life decision because you read one book? Many, Christians or not, would consider that less than prudent.

To quote scripture that you have neither studied and obviously do not understand as proof of the validity of your Atheism is also every bit as imprudent as people using the Scriptures incorrectly to prove the validity of their faith.

Some Christians use the crucifix as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, did for them. Others use the empty cross as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, accomplished by dying for them. Atheism requires that these facts be misrepresented, even scorned. I think that many Atheists work so hard to discredit Christianity because they are so terrified that it might be true.

The first story in the Bible as we now have it is an allegory depicting the presumption of mankind to be as smart as God and the consequences for that kind of arrogance. Atheists are so certain that they have God all figured out even as they declare that He does not exist. Doesn't that strike you as just a little weird?

It's okay though. I believe that those who are willing to risk an encounter with God will absolutely know the truth. Those who are not won't. It's as simple as that.
 

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kal-el said:
What he has done? Dude, God is the all-powerful creator, right? And we are his creation, right? And we are not perfect, right? In that case he hasn't acted responsibly and cannot expect imperfect humans to act so. If the Bible God is loving, then everything he makes has to be good, or else he's not omnibenevolent.Btw, Tengo veintiseis anos.
You produced some statements which already were explained on this site. Your reading of the Bible is a very common misunderstanding. See the replies to the question about Good and Evil and Free Will put in a form of mathematical equation.

kal-el said:
The world this perfect God created is full of numerous atrocities, injustices, and unfairness. He's either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or knew very well what would come of his creation, but doesn't give a **** about us.

As it was said about Evil, you are producing your personal judgment of atrocities. The Bible leaves judgment to God. I agree in the most part with Rev, how He knows. Also the Bible is some guidance for us to look up where our choices are leading (see Rev’s reply). How would you describe for us our choices without mentioning atrocities and “’punishments”” for wrong choices? Absence of such would undermine the meaning of choice. It would not matter left or right. Who told you that Evil is acting against God’s Good (not your good)? It may be a force which always determined to produce Bad but always produces Good in the end result. You have a choice to join the force, but with all your determination you will always produce Good. God will judge.

kal-el said:
Sorry, but if this God is omniscient, he created Satan with the full knowhow that he would turn evil and introduce sin into the world. It's a pretty simple idea really, all things good and bad come from God.

See the above. ‘’→’’ ‘’↑’’ And add the opposite effect. You may join the Church for good and expect that if you do good things you will be awarded. God may consider such pre-calculation as a part you filthy business like intention to gain a profit in a trade with Him. ‘’→’’ Go to Him knowing you ahead of time etc. ‘’↑’’

kal-el said:
Listen, an omniscient entity that knows everything, that is creator= no free will. It's a bit like if you went into the future and recorded all of my actions, and when the time comes, I have to do them, I think I'm choosing to do that, but a being who knows the future, already knows what we are going to do, hence no free will.

In the light of the above I just noticed that you were exercising your free will (choice) denying the existence of such. If you want to act on the base that nobody knows, or Flying Spaghetti Monster knows, or you know, or your self-assurance that you don’t care, it is you choice. I just would not call an intelligent look at reality.

kal-el said:
You are still in high school aren't you? This "God" fellow is portrayed as an asshole, who plays "hide and seek" with Adam and "peek a boo" with Moses, and the fatous, imbecilic God who is quick to anger has to be constantly worshipped, feared and appeased, mostly by sacrifices. Even the apostle Paul said God demands blood sacrifices.

Are you proud that you already have a high school diploma? Does it make you educated? I am still learning.
Apparently you have some special edition of the Bible with some special comments.
Again you’re projecting your judgment, fears and superstitions on actions (ways) of God. The Bible says the point is nobody can know ways of God. No doubt, you have to sacrifice when you make your choice (see the above) – you always sacrifice one part of your choice for another one. If it was so easy – what would be the meaning of choice? It is not inconceivable and/or completely unavoidable that you may have to sacrifice your blood in a certain situations of making a choice in your life. If you made a choice and sacrificing your blood makes you change your decision, - what is the value of you choice?
Again, based on choice of your words you are in the same circle of judging bad and good, and in your judgment you are using commonly interpreted Biblical understandings of what is good.
You noted fear as a part of human nature. Acting and making your choices you cannot avoid the fear of not reaching the desirable outcome of your action; and all other fears. Why don’t you concentrate all human fears in loving God in heaven and have no fears of whatever on the Earth. How else Jews could go through all atrocities and still carefully guard and preserve from strangers and barbarians the true history of humanity? Fear of God means no fear on the Earth. By the away, I avoid Rev’s judgment of Jews. God will work out the legalities and penalties of the contract without my legal advice. If I was not a barbarian and a stranger I won’t have a problem to be a Jew. But the only choice I have is to worship the same God through Jesus. Thanks Christ for the opportunity.
kal-el said:
Correction- it's the best selling book, NOT the most read. Very few people are bible literate.

I did not say selling. If to compare to many others I am not Bible literate. The trick of the Bible is it is not exactly for scientists or smart people or even literate people – it is designed to be for everyone , for all times and forever. And so far it has been meeting the design.
kal-el said:
Is this your ethnologic, phantasmagoric attempt at comedy? .
You made me laugh . Couldn’t help. Just don’t make fun out of yourself.
 

kal-el

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AlbqOwl said:
I would be extremely surprised that anybody who was not a Christian would have a clue about what most Christians believe about most things.

You made a life decision because you read one book? Many, Christians or not, would consider that less than prudent.

They're ya go. Not 1 Christian I have ran into is free of judging. Well, maybe 1 or 2.

To quote scripture that you have neither studied and obviously do not understand as proof of the validity of your Atheism is also every bit as imprudent as people using the Scriptures incorrectly to prove the validity of their faith.

I see we're quite hypocritical. How can you claim to beleive in Jesus, when you exersize judgement so much? Tsk. Tsk. If you think I'm using scritpure incorrectly, who's to say you are?

Some Christians use the crucifix as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, did for them. Others use the empty cross as a reminder of what God, as the Christ, accomplished by dying for them.

Haha, why would anybody want to parade around so protrusively the instrument on which they're savior was killed on in the most barbaric way possible? And The Gospel authores were at odds on what the inscription on the cross was. According to Matthew it was This is Jesus the king of the Jews, Mark said it was The king of the Jews, Luke said it was This is the king of the Jews, and finally John said it was Jesus of Nazareth the king of the jews. How the hell is anyone gonna take anything these guys say seriously if they can't even come to agreement about something so trivial. They all have differing recorded happenings of his life, from the geneology, Matthew and Luke are the only ones who say Mary was a virgin, and in the book of Matthew, king Herod killed all children 2 and under. If this genocide was really carried out, everyone at that time would have been affected, and at least heard of it happening, but history records no such incident, as common as killings are in the bible.:lol:


Atheism requires that these facts be misrepresented, even scorned. I think that many Atheists work so hard to discredit Christianity because they are so terrified that it might be true.

Ha, the idea of faith, which is not grounded in reality, contains no knowledge or experience, or any rational thinking is just what Christianity commands. And anyone not duped by these fairy stories is sentenced to spend eternity in a burning furnace. So, I would assume education is the enemy of religion, since it will surely lead to eternal damnation. If God is really omniscient, and knowing everything that has ever been and ever will be, he would know that much of humanity is destined for hell, the bible even says that God prepares a list of hell's occupants, what does this say about your loving God? I tell ya what, I wouldn't worship such an asshole.:lol:

The first story in the Bible as we now have it is an allegory depicting the presumption of mankind to be as smart as God and the consequences for that kind of arrogance.

I see the creation myth like this- When coerced by the serpant, Eve disobeys God and gives fruit to Adam. How the hell could they possibly have known that it was "wrong?" But this "God" fellow has a hissy fit and calls their disobedience a sin. And he punishes them without Adam or Eve being able to present their case, what a douchebag.:lol:

Atheists are so certain that they have God all figured out even as they declare that He does not exist. Doesn't that strike you as just a little weird?

Wow, that's quite a fantastic claim. Being is your so sure of this, since you can get into all atheists heads to know how or what they think, why don't you prove me wrong by providing me a telephone number of God. Or at least an email address so I can tell him he's an asshole. Let me ask you this- do you believe Jesus was the son of God, or God? If he was God in human form, who the hell was in charge of heaven for 33 years, O, I guess it was only 2/3rds managed (the trinity).

It's okay though.

I know, but thanks for reassuring me, I was on edge a little.:lol:

I believe that those who are willing to risk an encounter with God will absolutely know the truth. Those who are not won't. It's as simple as that.

Really? So in your simplistic case, if I am willing to go fishing with God, he will oblige? How about a game of peek a boo, since him and Moses liked it alot.
 

kal-el

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justone said:
You produced some statements which already were explained on this site.

Well, evidently I didn't read their explanations, appease me. If God is omnipotent, can he create another omnipotent entity? Can he build a wall so tough that even he cannot tear it down? Can he defeat Iron chariots? :lol: To my understang, this fella is quite busy flying around heaven and earth, overseeing nature, creating every baby and assigning them all souls, managing 6 billion lives, finding husbands and wives for those that marry, supervising everyone's death, and still resting on the 7th day. All this is accomplished by an omnipotent God who can't even ensure that even half of his creation believes that he even exists.LOL

Your reading of the Bible is a very common misunderstanding. See the replies to the question about Good and Evil and Free Will put in a form of mathematical equation.

Look, nothing evil can come out of something infinitley good, it's impossible. And we cannot have free will, cause how can a perfect God run things, if human decisions interfere?


As it was said about Evil, you are producing your personal judgment of atrocities.

O, so Hitler exterminating 3 million Jews was not an atrocity? I sure hope I am understanding you right, cause you sound like you go here alot http://www.micetrap.net/:lol:


The Bible leaves judgment to God.

Blatant lie. The carpenter exersizes judgement quite alot actually. Even Paul has judgeing in his arsenal.


I agree in the most part with Rev, how He knows.

That's good to know.

Also the Bible is some guidance for us to look up where our choices are leading (see Rev’s reply).

I guess you can say that, even though I wouldn't put it like that.

How would you describe for us our choices without mentioning atrocities and “’punishments”” for wrong choices?

I'm not too sure of what you mean by this, but look at it this way. If God is omniscinet and knows the future, he cannot be omnibenevolent,
Cause it says numerous times in the bible that good and evil come from this God of yours, and he knowingly let atrocities happen to us, and the fact that he doesn't even attempt to stop them, speaks volumes about his omnipotence.

Absence of such would undermine the meaning of choice. It would not matter left or right.

Ha, if he was loving, he could create robots instead, who aren't programmed to do "evil", hence no atrocities, hence no sin, hence no need to string up the carpenter.


Who told you that Evil is acting against God’s Good (not your good)?

What are you talking about? The mere fact that there's evil in this world, tells me that this God cannot be omnibenevolent. Why would a loving God create people destined for hell, and why would he force people to spend eternity with him? And last time I checked, if you "steal" or committ any minor sin, you do not get a life sentence, so is it just that God hands out infinite suffering for crimes perpetrated in a human lifetime?


It may be a force which always determined to produce Bad but always produces Good in the end result. You have a choice to join the force, but with all your determination you will always produce Good. God will judge.

What is this babble? Your God uses others, orders rapes and killings. Actaully, it seems like there's 2 different Gods in the bible. In the OT, he was an egotistical, vengeful, baleful, murdering thug of a diety, and in the NT, supposedly he is the very same insecure fellow, who comes to earth in a human embryo, is born in a smelly stable, spends at least a year as a crying infant, and 16 more as a parent-disobeying kid, and finally, after hiding out like a ****ing criminal, dies the death like a theif, and lies in a tomb for 3 days.:lol:


See the above. ‘’→’’ ‘’↑’’ And add the opposite effect. You may join the Church for good and expect that if you do good things you will be awarded.

But, not unless you believe in God or Jesus. So if you are the best person on earth, always striving to aid others, donate all your possesions to the poor, if you don't buy into the Christian dogma, you're going to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Sounds fair to me.:lol:

God may consider such pre-calculation as a part you filthy business like intention to gain a profit in a trade with Him. ‘’→’’ Go to Him knowing you ahead of time etc. ‘’↑’’

Huh? You need some grammer lessons chap.


In the light of the above I just noticed that you were exercising your free will (choice) denying the existence of such. If you want to act on the base that nobody knows, or Flying Spaghetti Monster knows, or you know, or your self-assurance that you don’t care, it is you choice. I just would not call an intelligent look at reality.

The mere fact that I'm typing this, actually shows there's no God that knows all or can do anything. If he knew people would besmurge him, and did nothing about it, he must not give a rat's *** about us, thus not omnibenevolent. And why did the carpenter say this:

Mark 14:7
The poor you will alwys have with you, and you can help them anytime you want. But you will not always have me.

Is Jesus suggesting that a loving God will never help poor people, or cannot?


Are you proud that you already have a high school diploma?

Negative. I have a G.E.D. I don't see how this plays any significance to "The problem with God", Please stay on topic.


Does it make you educated? I am still learning.

I hope you're not trying to insult me, I cannot tell, hieroglyphics isn't my strong suit.

Apparently you have some special edition of the Bible with some special comments.

Nope. I have the NIV, thanks to the good ole folks at Zondervan Co.


Again you’re projecting your judgment, fears and superstitions on actions (ways) of God.

Dude, If I cannot project judgement or understanding of what he does, how can you for that matter? And how the **** do we know he commands worship?


The Bible says the point is nobody can know ways of God.

Ahh, I think Paul said that. I'd hardly use Paul as an example of anything good, after all he's a liar and he even admits he's not good. But then again, Jesus is a liar, and God is also one.


No doubt, you have to sacrifice when you make your choice (see the above) – you always sacrifice one part of your choice for another one. If it was so easy – what would be the meaning of choice? It is not inconceivable and/or completely unavoidable that you may have to sacrifice your blood in a certain situations of making a choice in your life. If you made a choice and sacrificing your blood makes you change your decision, - what is the value of you choice?
Again, based on choice of your words you are in the same circle of judging bad and good, and in your judgment you are using commonly interpreted Biblical understandings of what is good.
You noted fear as a part of human nature. Acting and making your choices you cannot avoid the fear of not reaching the desirable outcome of your action; and all other fears. Why don’t you concentrate all human fears in loving God in heaven and have no fears of whatever on the Earth. How else Jews could go through all atrocities and still carefully guard and preserve from strangers and barbarians the true history of humanity? Fear of God means no fear on the Earth. By the away, I avoid Rev’s judgment of Jews. God will work out the legalities and penalties of the contract without my legal advice. If I was not a barbarian and a stranger I won’t have a problem to be a Jew. But the only choice I have is to worship the same God through Jesus. Thanks Christ for the opportunity.

O man, poetic babbling. When it comes down to it, almost everyone in your holy book is a liar. Jesus practically claims that God will be a year-round Santa Clause, who will grant the faithful anything. Go ahead, cancel all your medical insurance, don't see the doctor, just pray. Tell me how that turns out.

I did not say selling. If to compare to many others I am not Bible literate. The trick of the Bible is it is not exactly for scientists or smart people or even literate people – it is designed to be for everyone , for all times and forever. And so far it has been meeting the design.

Yes, very many people own the bible and are close to it, but few have actually taken the time to plow through it.

You made me laugh . Couldn’t help. Just don’t make fun out of yourself.

What grammer defiency are you concocting now?
 
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Rev.

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kal-el said:
the bible even says that God prepares a list of hell's occupants,

Please provide a scripture reference for this.


kal-el said:
I see the creation myth like this- When coerced by the serpant, Eve disobeys God and gives fruit to Adam. How the hell could they possibly have known that it was "wrong?"

Because Adam was told in advance, which clearly you understand if you are admitting that Eve disobeyed.

The big problem with your replies are your continued insistance of misusing theological terms (omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) to justify your tirade against God. It is not unreasonable to insist you use the words correctly...or redefine them for us and provide evidence for your new definitions.
 

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Rev. said:
Please provide a scripture reference for this.

Proverbs 16:4
The lord works out everythingfor his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

With eternal damnation an accomplishment in God's bag of tricks, of course there is need of a savior, Jesus, and one had better believe in him. Those satisfied with not inquiring or expressing a modicum of doubt in him are ideal candidates for the Christian faith.:lol:



Because Adam was told in advance, which clearly you understand if you are admitting that Eve disobeyed.

How can anyone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, practice obedience? How can the innocent possibly commit a sin? Ha, Adam became the world's first tattle-tale, telling God that his woman helper gave him the fruit, in turn, she passes the buck onto the serpent. But how can the serpent be there, Doesn't God look over his creation, and deem everything in it good?

The big problem with your replies are your continued insistance of misusing theological terms (omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) to justify your tirade against God. It is not unreasonable to insist you use the words correctly...or redefine them for us and provide evidence for your new definitions.

All these "omni" properties attributted to God in scripture, are self-contradictory. I do not think I have used these terms wrongly. Omnipotence is cleary a state of being all-powerful, and scripture seems like it attempts to bend over backwards to prove that he is. Omnipresence- being present everywhere at once. One of the faults of created objects is that they are limited by space (just ask King David). Omniscince- a state of being all-knowing. Omnibenevolent- a state of being all-loving.
I don't see any errors in these definitions, do you?
 

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Rev. said:
Please provide a scripture reference for this.




Because Adam was told in advance, which clearly you understand if you are admitting that Eve disobeyed.

The big problem with your replies are your continued insistance of misusing theological terms (omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) to justify your tirade against God. It is not unreasonable to insist you use the words correctly...or redefine them for us and provide evidence for your new definitions.

Kal-el is just mad because Superman isn't real, but God is.
 

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Donkey1499 said:
Kal-el is just mad because Superman isn't real, but God is.

Geese, I don't know, they both have the same amount of supporting evidence.
 

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Donkey1499 said:
What do geeses have to do with Superman? A goose is merely a bird that can fly like a bat, but with more grace.

Sorry, I said geese, I wasn't talking about ducks. (JEEZE)
 

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Donkey1499 said:
Jeeze, as in the sub-route of "Jeezus"? Or Jeeze, as in the sub-route of "Jeeze-la-weeze"?

Nevermind. :slapme:
 

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kal-el said:
Rev. said:
Please provide a scripture reference for this.
Proverbs 16:4
The lord works out everythingfor his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

That is hardly about God sitting down and writing a list of people going to hell. It's not God creating wicked people so that Satan won't be lonely down there. This is about God having a plan...He had a plan that man would fellowship with him through all eternity, but in the process of working out his plan, evil came in to the world. For all the accusations made against God about how he does nothing about evil, this shows the opposite is true. He hasn't done nothing...he made a plan. The wicked will be destroyed.

kal-el said:
How can anyone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, practice obedience?

What does right and wrong have to do with it? Obedience is a simple matter of doing as you're told or NOT doing as you're told. You keep wanting to portray good and evil as like a fork in the road...if you go right you're good, if you go left you're evil. But it's not like that at all...choice is a straight road and to go forward is good, but to go in reverse is not.

kal-el said:
How can the innocent possibly commit a sin? Ha, Adam became the world's first tattle-tale, telling God that his woman helper gave him the fruit, in turn, she passes the buck onto the serpent. But how can the serpent be there, Doesn't God look over his creation, and deem everything in it good?

When choices are clearly explained to you, you are no longer innocent. You have been educated. Adam was told, "Do not eat..." and "If you eat..." There are choices there: to eat or not to eat. And he was told which choice was preferable and why.

kal-el said:
All these "omni" properties attributted to God in scripture, are self-contradictory. I do not think I have used these terms wrongly. Omnipotence is cleary a state of being all-powerful, and scripture seems like it attempts to bend over backwards to prove that he is. Omnipresence- being present everywhere at once. One of the faults of created objects is that they are limited by space (just ask King David). Omniscince- a state of being all-knowing. Omnibenevolent- a state of being all-loving.
I don't see any errors in these definitions, do you?

You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.
 

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Rev. said:
That is hardly about God sitting down and writing a list of people going to hell. It's not God creating wicked people so that Satan won't be lonely down there. This is about God having a plan...He had a plan that man would fellowship with him through all eternity, but in the process of working out his plan, evil came in to the world. For all the accusations made against God about how he does nothing about evil, this shows the opposite is true. He hasn't done nothing...he made a plan. The wicked will be destroyed.



What does right and wrong have to do with it? Obedience is a simple matter of doing as you're told or NOT doing as you're told. You keep wanting to portray good and evil as like a fork in the road...if you go right you're good, if you go left you're evil. But it's not like that at all...choice is a straight road and to go forward is good, but to go in reverse is not.



When choices are clearly explained to you, you are no longer innocent. You have been educated. Adam was told, "Do not eat..." and "If you eat..." There are choices there: to eat or not to eat. And he was told which choice was preferable and why.



You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.

You sound very educated on this matter and have given me alot to think about this morning. Thanks! :mrgreen:
 

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Rev. said:
You haven't really given definitions...more like translations. None of these four words are ever found in the Bible...they are theological terms used to summerize an understanding of God based on scripture. There ARE limits in the words...though you insist on using them as if they had none. You use "omnicient" to if it were another quality altogether. So again my question is, how are you defining these words and based on what scripture? You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean. There is room in the definitions for discussion, but you must use scripture to support your position.

Herein lies the base of this discussion. Definition, and Translation. For many (myself included) understanding of scripture is a very personal, and thus individual journey. Those of us who feel they are comfortable in the level of study of sacred text, might find the inconsistent nature of these translations place doubt on the whole "Word of God" aspect of the Bibles. Once the doubt of some parts comes into play, who gets to decide the validity of the rest.
The mere fact that certain scriptres read differently depending on which "Version" of the Bible you decide to read points to a flaw in the word of god, and leads to a simple conclusion which is beyond debate.

The Bibles were placed on paper by Man....there is no doubt of this.
Mankind is prone to error.
The Bibles have been translated and edited numerous times.
The likelyhood of mistranslation, deletion, and change are 100%

The Bibles therefore are not the actual words of God, they are the words of Men.

This does not mean they are irrelevant, but it does indicate a need to place them in the context of reality, and use the message accordingly.


This statement by you:

"You may not make up your own definitions based on what you feel they must mean."

Is exactly what every biblical scholar has done for centuries, yet you place your faith in the infallability of these people, and base your understanding of "Gods" message on how "They" wrote it down.
 
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