The Pope Nails It: "Money Sickens the Mind"

[Goshin]

The notion that the gospel doesn't denounce greed and materialism is in fact a political claim made by modern "market evangelists" who then go on to gloss perfectly plain verses to mean something they don't.

I mean, how much clearer does James need to be before you believe him that the rich are condemned because they are rich:

James 5 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you.

How clear does Jesus have to be about not accumulating wealth before you acknowledge that Christian should not accumulate wealth?

Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Ok.


Define "rich".

 

[head of joaquin]

Ok.


Define "rich".

Sure: it means what Jesus, James, Paul, et al, meant it means when they used it.

Are you claiming Jesus was talking gibberish when he used the term?

This is a market evangelist meme: rich and poor don't mean anything, so don't worry about it. Pretty cheap way to avoid your moral responsibilities as a Christian.

By the way, love this talking point. It's always used by those who want to wish away the gospel's clear message condemning greed and wealth.

 

[Goshin]

Sure: it means what Jesus, James, Paul, et al, meant it means when they used it.

Are you claiming Jesus was talking gibberish when he used the term?

This is a market evangelist meme: rich and poor don't mean anything, so don't worry about it. Pretty cheap way to avoid your moral responsibilities as a Christian.

By the way, love this talking point. It's always used by those who want to wish away the gospel's clear message condemning greed and wealth.

Keep making it personal.


You didn't answer the question. Who is rich? Are you?

 

[head of joaquin]

Keep making it personal.


You didn't answer the question. Who is rich? Are you?

God, look who's talking. You haven't contributed anything to this thread except attack those who support the pope's statement by saying we're rich.

In any case, no I'm not rich. But let's say I was. How does that change what the pope or the gospel says?

NEXT VAPID QUESTION!

 

[Dezaad]

I would nitpick with the Pope that money isn't what sickens our minds, but as the Bible says the LOVE of money.

I think he would agree with you. I doubt he was advocating getting rid of money per se. I think people speak in shorthand a lot, and as such are not quite precise with their meaning.

Still... Jesus never said "Go forth and get rich", and he never said "the money that comes to you is a blessing from God". Quite the opposite actually, which I think is telling.

 

[Goshin]

I think he would agree with you. I doubt he was advocating getting rid of money per se. I think people speak in shorthand a lot, and as such are not quite precise with their meaning.

Still... Jesus never said "Go forth and get rich", and he never said "the money that comes to you is a blessing from God". Quite the opposite actually, which I think is telling.

And no where in this thread have I endorsed any of this "gospel of prosperity" nonsense, which just in case there is some confusion I do NOT advocate, in fact I quite despise it.

But there's a crapload of hypocrisy on the other extreme of this too.

 

[Goshin]

God, look who's talking. You haven't contributed anything to this thread except attack those who support the pope's statement by saying we're rich.

In any case, no I'm not rich. But let's say I was. How does that change what the pope or the gospel says?

NEXT VAPID QUESTION!

Okay, you're not rich. Is the guy who has twice as much as you rich? The guy who has three times as much as you?

Are you rich to the Guatemalan peasant who has 1/10th what you have?


I think it is very important we figure out where that line is, since all the rich are condemned by their riches. I wouldn't want to go a dollar over...

 

[Dezaad]

And no where in this thread have I endorsed any of this "gospel of prosperity" nonsense, which just in case there is some confusion I do NOT advocate, in fact I quite despise it.

But there's a crapload of hypocrisy on the other extreme of this too.

Oh... I absolutely did not mean to imply that you did, and I do hope it doesn't really seem that way. My second sentence was was meant to convey that the preponderance of the evidence is that the Christian ideal seems to encourage being rather indifferent to money. This was meant to nuance the extent of my agreement with the stricture being limited to 'not loving money'. Just making my own position clear there, not commenting further on yours.

 

[Dezaad]

Okay, you're not rich. Is the guy who has twice as much as you rich? The guy who has three times as much as you?

Are you rich to the Guatemalan peasant who has 1/10th what you have?


I think it is very important we figure out where that line is, since all the rich are condemned by their riches. I wouldn't want to go a dollar over...

Jesus did use the phrase 'rich man'. What do you think he meant?

 

[Goshin]

Oh... I absolutely did not mean to imply that you did, and I do hope it doesn't really seem that way. My second sentence was was meant to convey that the preponderance of the evidence is that the Christian ideal seems to encourage being rather indifferent to money. This was meant to nuance the extent of my agreement with the stricture being limited to 'not loving money'. Just making my own position clear there, not commenting further on yours.

I gotcha, and to a large extent I agree. A good Christian should not be focused primarily on money or accumulating wealth, yes.

 

[Goshin]

Jesus did use the phrase 'rich man'. What do you think he meant?

I'm asking HOJ, since apparently he has all the answers here. I'm not entirely sure.


No one in 33 AD had a car, or electricity, or modern dentistry, or HVAC, or internet, or washing machines, and indoor plumbing was rare... is "rich" relative or absolute?

Is "rich" related to how rich you are in comparison to everyone in the world, or everyone in your country, or the average Joe in your state, or your neighbors.... ?

Is there a dollar figure he has in mind? Based on net worth or income? As I said, I'd hate to go a dollar over... and I need to know, if the rich are condemned by their richness. I don't want to be condemned, obviously.


Not that I'm in any danger of that just the now, to be sure. :lamo

 

[Goshin]

God, look who's talking. You haven't contributed anything to this thread except attack those who support the pope's statement by saying we're rich.

In any case, no I'm not rich. But let's say I was. How does that change what the pope or the gospel says?

NEXT VAPID QUESTION!

Okay, you're not rich. Is the guy who has twice as much as you rich? The guy who has three times as much as you?

Are you rich to the Guatemalan peasant who has 1/10th what you have?


I think it is very important we figure out where that line is, since all the rich are condemned by their riches. I wouldn't want to go a dollar over...

I'm asking HOJ, since apparently he has all the answers here. I'm not entirely sure.


No one in 33 AD had a car, or electricity, or modern dentistry, or HVAC, or internet, or washing machines, and indoor plumbing was rare... is "rich" relative or absolute?

Is "rich" related to how rich you are in comparison to everyone in the world, or everyone in your country, or the average Joe in your state, or your neighbors.... ?

Is there a dollar figure he has in mind? Based on net worth or income? As I said, I'd hate to go a dollar over... and I need to know, if the rich are condemned by their richness. I don't want to be condemned, obviously.


Not that I'm in any danger of that just the now, to be sure. :lamo

Well? If you can't define, in modern terms, who is "rich" and how exactly they are among the rich-condemned-for-being-rich, how are we supposed to get anywhere here?

 

[Dezaad]

I'm asking HOJ, since apparently he has all the answers here. I'm not entirely sure.


No one in 33 AD had a car, or electricity, or modern dentistry, or HVAC, or internet, or washing machines, and indoor plumbing was rare... is "rich" relative or absolute?

Is "rich" related to how rich you are in comparison to everyone in the world, or everyone in your country, or the average Joe in your state, or your neighbors.... ?

Is there a dollar figure he has in mind? Based on net worth or income? As I said, I'd hate to go a dollar over... and I need to know, if the rich are condemned by their richness. I don't want to be condemned, obviously.


Not that I'm in any danger of that just the now, to be sure. :lamo

It is an interesting question, to be sure! If Jesus meant his phrase to be relative to the time period or culture in which a person lives, that would be interesting to me.

I do think that the rich are not condemned. Jesus said it was difficult, not impossible. Given the nature of man's relations with money, I think the most common sense interpretation is that money is a terrible temptress, and associating with it is perhaps placing a stumbling block in your own path.

 

[JC Callender]

I would assume Jesus meant idolizing of money. With that said, I think an equally corrupting sin is the envy of those who have money.

"No one would remember the Good Samaritan if he only had good intentions - he had money too" - Margaret Thatcher

 

[Goshin]

Is everyone who owns a factory rich and condemned?


How about the owner who treats his workers like human beings, pays them as well as he can, deals honestly with his clients, gives to charity, and is otherwise an exemplary Christian man? Is he condemned for being rich? He's a capitalist and owns the means of production, the dirty running dog, so he must be right?

Anyone? Bueller? :mrgreen:

 

[Goshin]

Is the retiree who has 1.5 million in a retirement portfolio rich and condemned? That might give him an interest income of $75,000 a year after retirement, what is typically considered "comfortably well off" these days, and he has to consider medical bills and probably wants to leave his children a bit of a legacy... but wait, his retirement portfolio is CAPITAL, that means he is a CAPITALIST, gasp! Obviously rich and condemned, right?

Or not?

 

[Zyphlin]

Here's my issue...

Let's say "The Rich" are "Condemned". If you believe it's the simple act of HAVING the money that's fine. If you believe it's the act of being greedy and loving/being covetous of the Money, that's fine too. Take whichever way you want.

My question for this would be....and?

What you're basically saying is "being rich", however each individual defines it, is a sin. But it's one of a MULTITUDE of sins one would perform throughout ones life. Why would "The rich" be more condemned than "a liar", unable to find salvation? Do we not hear, in terms of things like homosexuality, that even if it's a sin that doesn't mean a homosexual couldn't be christian because everyone sins and the question is do you seek salvation and forgiveness from Christ?

It seems like some in this thread are trying to act as if this is some great and almighty transgression that irrevocably "Condemns" people...which seems illogical and inconsistent with scripture as a whole, and seems instead to be the utilization of religion to push ulterior intentions.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Pope: "Money sickens the mind"

Gee, who knew that so many liberals are wealthy? Or could it be that liberal envy of wealth causes their mental illness?

 

[keith]

The fact is you must accumulate wealth, even if it is in the manner of earning a social security pension, if you do not want to be in a very precarious position when you get old and/or sick.

I am hoping I can accumulate enough wealth so I can leave the corporate world when I turn 59.5.

 

[keith]

Looks like it's spoonfeeding time:

Luke 16:9
“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home.

Luke 16:11
Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

Possibly it would be best to utilize those quotes in context to understand their meaning, from the United States Council of Catholic Bishops website:

The Parable of the Dishonest Steward

1 Then he also said to his disciples, “A rich man had a steward who was reported to him for squandering his property.

2 He summoned him and said, ‘What is this I hear about you? Prepare a full account of your stewardship, because you can no longer be my steward.’

3 The steward said to himself, ‘What shall I do, now that my master is taking the position of steward away from me? I am not strong enough to dig and I am ashamed to beg.

4 I know what I shall do so that, when I am removed from the stewardship, they may welcome me into their homes.’

5 He called in his master’s debtors one by one. To the first he said, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6* He replied, ‘One hundred measures of olive oil.’ He said to him, ‘Here is your promissory note. Sit down and quickly write one for fifty.’

7 Then to another he said, ‘And you, how much do you owe?’ He replied, ‘One hundred kors* of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Here is your promissory note; write one for eighty.’

8 And the master commended that dishonest steward for acting prudently.Application of the Parable.* “For the children of this world are more prudent in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light.*a

9 I tell you, make friends for yourselves with dishonest wealth,* so that when it fails, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.b

10 The person who is trustworthy in very small matters is also trustworthy in great ones; and the person who is dishonest in very small matters is also dishonest in great ones.

11 If, therefore, you are not trustworthy with dishonest wealth, who will trust you with true wealth?

12 If you are not trustworthy with what belongs to another, who will give you what is yours?

13 No servant can serve two masters.* He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

This is really condemning wealth acquired through fraud and theft.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

It seems like some in this thread are trying to act as if this is some great and almighty transgression that irrevocably "Condemns" people...which seems illogical and inconsistent with scripture as a whole, and seems instead to be the utilization of religion to push ulterior intentions.

Absolutely correct, whether we're talking about being greedy or simply having a pile of money, we're not talking about an unforgivable sin -- especially when we're talking about a religion that is pretty heavy on forgiveness.

 

[Comunitee]

This is really condemning wealth acquired through fraud and theft.

So did the results of the 1932, 1992, 2008 and 2012 Presidential elections.

 

[head of joaquin]

Here's my issue...

Let's say "The Rich" are "Condemned". If you believe it's the simple act of HAVING the money that's fine. If you believe it's the act of being greedy and loving/being covetous of the Money, that's fine too. Take whichever way you want.

My question for this would be....and?

What you're basically saying is "being rich", however each individual defines it, is a sin. But it's one of a MULTITUDE of sins one would perform throughout ones life. Why would "The rich" be more condemned than "a liar", unable to find salvation? Do we not hear, in terms of things like homosexuality, that even if it's a sin that doesn't mean a homosexual couldn't be christian because everyone sins and the question is do you seek salvation and forgiveness from Christ?

It seems like some in this thread are trying to act as if this is some great and almighty transgression that irrevocably "Condemns" people...which seems illogical and inconsistent with scripture as a whole, and seems instead to be the utilization of religion to push ulterior intentions.

Forgiveness requires repentance. Repentance requires that the rich give away their wealth and put store up treasure in heaven. Zacheus is the paradigm. Salvation didn't "come to his house" until he gave away his wealth. Repentance wasn't enough.

But as Jesus points out, that almost never happens.

Why do you find that odd, especially since Jesus explicitly notes how hard it is for the rich to repent and give away their wealth?

 

[head of joaquin]

I would assume Jesus meant idolizing of money. With that said, I think an equally corrupting sin is the envy of those who have money.

"No one would remember the Good Samaritan if he only had good intentions - he had money too" - Margaret Thatcher

Nope, Jesus meant accumulating wealth. Are you claiming Jesus was envious of wealth?

How much clearer does he have to be in saying DON'T accumulate wealth as it means you have rejected God:

Mat 6:19 - Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;…

 

[head of joaquin]

Is everyone who owns a factory rich and condemned?


How about the owner who treats his workers like human beings, pays them as well as he can, deals honestly with his clients, gives to charity, and is otherwise an exemplary Christian man? Is he condemned for being rich? He's a capitalist and owns the means of production, the dirty running dog, so he must be right?

Anyone? Bueller? :mrgreen:

Depends what they do with the profits. If they store up wealth for themselves, yep they are condemned. Jesus says so. He even explains why. If they don't pay fair wage, they are condemned, James says so, as does the Old Testament.

Why do you find this so perplexing?

Mat 6:19 - Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;…For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


James 5: Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you.