The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Lots of modern music is negative. There is no objective evidence that it influences behavior. Besides, if you try to police people tastes in music or art or dress then where do we draw the line and who gets to chose what is "acceptable". I am certain you wouldn't want to listen to my Joni Mitchell or Steve Ray Vaughn for that matter. Are you gonna decide that my Etta James is to ...suggestive?

I am not suggesting we police people's taste...

I am suggesting we monitor and filter the negative out of PUBLIC radio and public television.

I am an adult, I can make the right choice. Kids, however, often cannot. Music is very influential in that process. I would not want my children listening to that kind of music.

 

[Ikari]

So I'm downtown at the basketball court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game.

Getting increasingly annoyed at his disrespectful behavior, I picked up my game and smacked the ball pretty hard on a couple of blocks in the second game. With an attitude, he cries foul and says "nigga, cool yo azz." That's when I went off and told the kid that if he wants respect then he needs to show it. Avoiding profanity, I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up, recapping what he had done wrong. He says "I don't have to listen to this ****" and proceeds to leave. I told him to take his Starbucks cup with him, for which he replies "if you so worried about it then you do something about it."

Thinking it's over, I resume shooting around, only to have him dropkick my basketball as soon as I miss. Luckily, it stayed within the fence, so I walked over to get it. I noticed the other guy then wandering towards where my bag was, despite the fact that they were already by the exit, thus I walk over towards my bag as well. Low and behold, he immediately starts accusing me of only going towards my bag because he's black. I asked why in the heck he expected my to trust them near my things when his buddy had just attempted to punt my ball as far as he could. I resumed telling them their behavior was going to get them into trouble when the main punk then approaches wanting to fight.

While trying to get in my face and start a fight, he hilariously accuses me of trying to initiate contact for having my arm extended as I'm backing away. I warned him that if he threw any punches that I'd make sure he was arrested, especially since I didn't want any legal issues for an altercation with a minor. Then some teen girl he knew who was in the area tells him to cut it out. He tells me "you lucky she here" to which I reply "wow, such a gentleman."

Right after all this crap was over, I was thanking God I didn't become the next Zimmerman. Fortunately, had the situation escalated, I would have had an even more solid defense than Zimmerman. It turns out, in the adjacent playground, a father had been recording the event on his phone, which easily would have shown that I made attempts to avoid physical confrontation. Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

This is why I don't exercise.

 

[Sykes]

Here's how things could have gone.

WATCH: 'Mormon Missionaries' Dominate Pickup Basketball Game : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[rcart76]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

No, I don't. So perhaps it's excessive to compare to Zimmerman if you consider the likely end results had it escalated further. Just the aggressive response by a black teen to someone trying to straighten out the neighborhood reminded me of the case since it is fresh on our minds.

I want to point out a few things:

1) This is a totally different situation from the TM and GZ case. First thing first, you were minding your own business shooting some hoops and GZ wasn't minding his own business. TM was walking home away from GZ minding his own business and the young black teens confronted you. I do not see the correlation between the two situations except for races involved. Now the situation would be similar if the teens were coming home from playing bball and you notice them from your car and called the police about some suspicious guys walking around. Then you ignore the dispatcher advice and follow the teens ultimately getting into it with them and shooting both of them dead claiming self defense with no witnesses around.

2) It is funny that you guys on the right keep saying that we need to move from this situation and yet someone like yourself always come in and restart this whole conversation again. But yet if we do it it is considered "race baiting".

3) How often do you run into this situation? There are idiots in every race. Please do not tell me that you never ran into any white a**holes.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Are you telling me that you would tolerate that type of behavior from your own? How about from your neighbors? If you would not, then you are failing to hold these kids to the same standard, which is not fair to the kids, and is a little bit racist.

If you're telling me that you would let your own kids slide with that behavior, I'm telling you that I don't believe you. Low expectations are bad for white kids too, but I think you know that. Nobody here is saying that adolescent males never act the fool. Nobody is saying that these particular kids are going to be in prison tomorrow. I am saying that if no one bothers to correct them, their chances of ending up in the system are much higher. You seem to be implying that it can only be a deep-seated, unacknowledged racism that motivates a person to correct them if the adolescent males happen to be black. I have no idea how you get there.

You are still not getting it. I'll try one more time. These are two separate issues.

Issue 1 Behavior
First of all no, I don't think that what these kids actually did was all that bad. I certainly would not make the assumption that someone who littered was destined to end up in prison. ( That's actually so ridiculous it is almost laughable) Nice effort on passing the racist hot potato to me but .... I don't think so. I think that assuming you have the authority to parent these kids, are qualified to parent these kids, or that they are not getting it at home is arrogant as hell. Tolerating inappropriate behavior from kids that are not your own is not something I would do. I just don't think that the behavior in this situation called for it.

Issue 2 Racially influenced assumptions
Again, he added assumptions to where these kids were headed in life, how they were raised, what they needed etc., that were based in racial stereotypes. I stand by that and I am not the only one who got the same read on that part.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The underlined portions are what I take issue with. Your position is in essence allowing for the kids' behavior because they were behaving like any other teen. That's the problem right there, we shouldn't allow teens to do this. Specifically, the act that started the tension, which was littering. It is illegal, and Mathematician was correct in telling them to throw their trash away. The response was to litter again. He picked up the trash, and threw it back on the ground. That's littering for a second time, not to mention, it was meant to be an affront to Mathematician.

Now, I can understand the social dynamics behind the act, and yeah, I'd agree that that can be considered a normal male action. But to litter to make that point is legally wrong. The situation devolved from there, but my position is that this kid's beginning actions were wrong, they are indefensible, and Mathematician responded in the correct manner. It is wrong to claim he was necessarily motivated by thoughts of race, and it is wrong to say he acted later on because of race and not because of the deplorable nature of the kid's actions.

The problem is the way you and FedRep are both interpreting what I am saying. The real issue I have with this story is with the racial stereotyping he heaped on these kids, not with the choice to say something about what he thought they were doing. I think it was a ridiculous over-reaction regardless of their ethnicity but it's his call. ( He clearly sets the bar in a very different place and has different standards when it comes to what is worth getting your underwear in a bunch over then I do)

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I am not suggesting we police people's taste...

I am suggesting we monitor and filter the negative out of PUBLIC radio and public television.

I am an adult, I can make the right choice. Kids, however, often cannot. Music is very influential in that process. I would not want my children listening to that kind of music.

I hate this answer but if you want to have a free society and have the same rules apply to everyone then it will have to be left up to you to police what your kids listen to and watch. Are you gonna ban certain books too? I get it, I raised two kids. My son experimented with things I didn't like and having to parent him through that made my job harder but in the end it taught him skills and values that have served him very well in life.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The problem is the way you and FedRep are both interpreting what I am saying. The real issue I have with this story is with the racial stereotyping he heaped on these kids, not with the choice to say something about what he thought they were doing. I think it was a ridiculous over-reaction regardless of their ethnicity but it's his call. ( He clearly sets the bar in a very different place and has different standards when it comes to what is worth getting your underwear in a bunch over then I do)

Yes, I understand your position, but my point is that the entire discussion of race is irrelevant, because the initial actions of the kid were wrong by a legal standard, and set up the tension.

Let me put it this way, if all characters in the scenario were completely unaware of the other's race throughout the scenario, the same outcome could very easily be reached.

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I hate this answer but if you want to have a free society and have the same rules apply to everyone then it will have to be left up to you to police what your kids listen to and watch. Are you gonna ban certain books too? I get it, I raised two kids. My son experimented with things I didn't like and having to parent him through that made my job harder but in the end it taught him skills and values that have served him very well in life.

I see your point and I believe it is the parent's duty first. However, music and television (entertainment as a whole) are very easily accessible these days. I think some of the responsibilty should be on the people playing the music or airing the shows publicly.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Yes, I understand your position, but my point is that the entire discussion of race is irrelevant, because the initial actions of the kid were wrong by a legal standard, and set up the tension.

Let me put it this way, if all characters in the scenario were completely unaware of the other's race throughout the scenario, the same outcome could very easily be reached.

You are missing the point that HE made it about race not me. If he had posted something about the disrespectful attitudes of young American males we would be having an entirely different discussion. But he didn't.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I see your point and I believe it is the parent's duty first. However, music and television (entertainment as a whole) are very easily accessible these days. I think some of the responsibilty should be on the people playing the music or airing the shows publicly.

What about the idea of first analyzing why you have concerns with it and considering whether it is an unfounded fear on your part, which we have plenty of as parents, as opposed to what they are seeing or hearing posing any real threat?

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

If you're rich and put your kid in drug rehab what happens? You spend money on their sorry asses thus making you less rich! See how this works? I don't care how wealthy you start out, if you start blowing off responsibility and civility you'll get poor. It's bad attitudes that cause poverty and it's good attitudes that allow people to escape poverty. How you can't see this is beyond me.

You're right, and that's part of the point of my story.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're right, and that's part of the point of my story.

What's the other part?

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What about the idea of first analyzing why you have concerns with it and considering whether it is an unfounded fear on your part, which we have plenty of as parents, as opposed to what they are seeing or hearing posing any real threat?

I have concerns because:

Though my children may not act on or emulate any behavior they hear in music or see on television (because of parenting / parental control), other children who they may come into contact with could - my children could be victims of / affected negatively by these behaviors / lifestyles. The negativity extends to all corners of music, not just rap. I am singling out rap, however, because of how dominant it is in black culture. It is a sort of mantra in some cases. I am basing this belief on things I see with my own eyes, btw - not just assumption.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

This is the coolest internet story that never happened.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I have concerns because:

Though my children may not act on or emulate any behavior they hear in music or see on television (because of parenting / parental control), other children who they may come into contact with could - my children could be victims of / affected negatively by these behaviors / lifestyles. The negativity extends to all corners of music, not just rap. I am singling out rap, however, because of how dominant it is in black culture. It is a sort of mantra in some cases. I am basing this belief on things I see with my own eyes, btw - not just assumption.

I get that and as a parent I had the same concerns. They are your kids and you have to make the choices that speak to your conscience when it comes to parenting them. When I faced this same dilemma I chose to work on building my kids life skills so that as they faced moments like this in life they would know how to navigate them intelligently on their own. That of course works if they are a little older. When they were younger I just limited what they could and could not watch and listen to. For instance, I would not let them watch the Simpsons because I did not like the behavior of its characters.

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I get that and as a parent I had the same concerns. They are your kids and you have to make the choices that speak to your conscience when it comes to parenting them. When I faced this same dilemma I chose to work on building my kids life skills so that as they faced moments like this in life they would know how to navigate them intelligently on their own. That of course works if they are a little older. When they were younger I just limited what they could and could not watch and listen to. For instance, I would not let them watch the Simpsons because I did not like the behavior of its characters.

So what do you say of the countless children who do not have the same parenting, and the way they adopt the behaviors in rap music / pop culture affecting your children?

Respectfully, of course.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what do you say of the countless children who do not have the same parenting, and the way they adopt the behaviors in rap music / pop culture affecting your children?

Respectfully, of course.

I sincerely understand your concerns and I see them as completely legitimate but I see this as an issue of choosing censorship to make my job of parenting easier. I can't make that choice. Temptation and destructive options are always going to be present. If we try to rid the world of everything that might be a negative influence we will fail and what happens when you are not there to censor? For me the approach that best equipped them for adulthood was teaching them good judgement and building the faith they had in themselves so they would be less inclined to follow the herd. They are still young, 22 and 19, but they are so well equipped for life and make such thought out sound decisions and have such faith in themselves without being cocky. It seemed to work very well for them but it did make my job much much harder.

To be a little more specific. I payed attention to who their friends were, I got to know them, my kids and I talked about their friendships and they would spend alot of time at my house. They both had friends I didn't care for from time to time but I watched and was their to discuss it with them as they navigated their way through. I was honest with them about how I felt, what my concerns were. I kept an eye on them to see if their behavior was changing. In each case my kids came to their own conclusion that this was not someone they wanted to keep as a friend. They learned how to make great choices and they are still doing it.

I am beginning to sound like I think I am some model parent. I don't. This is just how I dealt with those questions and it worked.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm not sure how this relates to the Zimmerman case. You were obviously annoyed by their juvenile behavior and could have easily walked away, but you decided to have a fit over trash and vile language?

If I walk away then the neighborhood is dirtier than when I arrived and the teens clearly learn nothing.

 

[rcart76]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I am not suggesting we police people's taste...

I am suggesting we monitor and filter the negative out of PUBLIC radio and public television.

I am an adult, I can make the right choice. Kids, however, often cannot. Music is very influential in that process. I would not want my children listening to that kind of music.

You can't blame hip hop for the violence in the world.

The listener of this genre is extremely diverse. In fact, white kids are the biggest buyers of hip hop. I know guys I work with in Corporate America that grew up on hip hop. It is big overseas as well.

 

[Mathematician]

Wow. You must be a saint. I like how you made absolutely sure that race in your story is so vitally important... and how it was also so important to make sure that the black guy speak is phonetically written in ebonics while you are so poised and composed as if a refined British gentleman. Then of course there was HIM calling YOU "nigga". It's so authentic.

Yup, I had to have made that up because black teens never refer to non-blacks by that name. I guess Rachel Jeantel is full of ****. :roll:

I'll file this under fiction because even if the whole gist of the story could actually be somewhat true, the fact that you are a central component of the story as well as the narrator of said story and not so surprisingly the unscathed hero of that story while the other guy is clearly all bad... yeah... file it under fiction or truth stretched so far it looks like fiction.

Please point to where I proclaimed myself a hero.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You are missing the point that HE made it about race not me. If he had posted something about the disrespectful attitudes of young American males we would be having an entirely different discussion. But he didn't.

My point is it doesn't matter if he used the word black to describe them, or whatever, because analysis of the scenario doesn't rely in any way shape or form. It doesn't matter what the skin tone of anyone in the situation was, the outcome would remain the same based on the actions of the kid.

It doesn't matter whether or not Mathematician made this about race, because it is incredibly simple to analyze this case without considering race. However, you have continued to keep this issue going, and that is the only reason we're still talking about race.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Guys, seriously??!! How could you say that I made this about race, he did... (these are quotes from his story)

1- Calls the story "the next Zimmerman (almost)
2- Begins the story about how these "black kids..."
3- makes references to how they are gonna wind up stuck in the "ghetto"
4- references there language “nigga….cool yo azz” and “you lucky she here”
5- reference “crap THUG music” (because it was rap)
6-Says “it’s an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O’Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about THIS culture
7- Says..."What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting"

And the first confrontational thing said was said by him. (insisting that they pick up their trash)

Again I ask you, why did HE make this about race when these behaviors are typical (albeit unacceptable to some) teenage boy behaviors. It implies somehow that their behavior is attributable to race and not the fact that they are teen boys; which is the real issue here btw.

You're right that it's about race. Where you're wrong is that you think I'm criticizing them because of their race. I'm trying to teach them that their behavior is what is holding back so many blacks from prospering. As I already stated, my friends and I aren't going to hire, tutor or help anyone who acts like this. You're lying to yourself if you think this type of behavior isn't most common among blacks.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Lots of modern music is negative. There is no objective evidence that it influences behavior. Besides, if you try to police people tastes in music or art or dress then where do we draw the line and who gets to chose what is "acceptable". I am certain you wouldn't want to listen to my Joni Mitchell or Steve Ray Vaughn for that matter. Are you gonna decide that my Etta James is to ...suggestive?

Do me a favor. Try ordering the music genres according to what percentage of the songs would be reasonably deemed a negative influence and tell me where rap falls on your list.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

His story makes a statement it does not ask questions. (the question at the end about what more can I do appears to me to be rhetorical) It does not present a curiosity he has for discussion so it is difficult to buy your premise.

Nope, it wasn't rhetorical. It was genuinely asking how, because any time there's constructive criticism about blacks then people paint it as racism and disregard it. I'll reiterate, this is why relatively few break the cycle of poverty.

I won't get into the debate over the attitudes and crimes stats here, that's a whole other conversation. For the sake of argument I will just go with it. The problem remains. The question isn't whether or not bad attitudes, antisocial behavior and crime are more prevalent in the black "community" the question is whether or not those extremes (the behaviors by individuals within that community that make up those statistics) were present in THESE individuals. This is what I see as the problem. These kids were behaving like any other teen but he saw them as contributors to those statistics purely because they were black kids, when again what they did was not different than any other teen boy it did not warrant those labels. Look at this way... some women are moody b**tches but it does not follow that all then are moody b**tches, some southerners are racists assholes but not ALL southerners are racists assholes etc. It's not like they pulled out a crack pipe and a .45 on the court for gods sake.

I'm glad you consider this behavior normal in teens. I thought grades were the only standards dropping. :roll: