The "New Math" More liberal "touchy-feely" (expletive deleted)

[Mikkel]

Actually, I'm only in favor of junking the present public school system. Let it be market based and the teachers can make as much money as the market will bear. I just think that the quality of too many teachers today is abysmal. And your 1% functional illiteracy rate is not accurate -- no way.

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/illiteracy.asp

this talks about illiteracy in the United states since the late 19th century. I couldn't find more recent data, but it does have a table that goes up to 1979 and shows that illiteracy in our country was down to .6%. If you think it has gone up from then (and I see no reason why it would), please provide data to show that it has.

 

[ncallaway]

I couldn't say for sure, but when I graduated from high school in 1961 we all could do basic math and all were literate. Can you claim the same today?

Yes. As a student that is still in high school, I can confidently say I can do basic math. I am also fairly literate. On top of that, I go to a quite liberal school, in a liberal city in a blue state.
As such, my anecdotal evidence counters yours. We are both basing our statements on personal experience, so I see no reason why one should count for more than the other.

Do you have anything to show that basic math isn't being taught to our young? Any facts to show that the literacy rate is plummeting since the damn liberals took over?

The CIA World Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) says we have a 97% literacy rate. I wouldn't call that atrocious. Not really good, by any standards, but certainly not a "liberal education establishment" bent churning out children that hate loggers, have long hair, smoke pot, and want to stick it to the man.

definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 97%
male: 97%
female: 97% (1999 est.)

Do you have anything other than your interactions to show that education is getting weaker because of liberals? Any facts at all? Seriously, I'll look at 'em if you have them. I promise.

 

[Kelzie]

Oh get ready to be shot down. Drum role please?

From the National Center for Education Statistics:

"The average reading scores of students at ages 9 and 13 were higher in 2004 than in 1971"

"The average mathematics scores of students at ages 9 and 13 were higher in 2004 than in 1973."

Burn baby, burn. What do you got now huh? Going to whine about how it's a biased source? Bet you are. Instead of whining, howbout some FACTS of your own to back up your ridiculous argument. Oh, wait, there are none, because education is getting BETTER!

 

[nkgupta80]

early math education here still sucks. They should just stick to the simple stuff when teachin it. So much less confusion for the majority of the kids.

 

[IndiConservative]

The problem with schools is that the curriculum is to easy.
Up the difficulty level by about 2-3 grade levels. Kids get bored quick.Also get rid of tenure and up the salaries by 50%-100% for teachers. Introduce longer school years and better written less watered down subject books and teachers guides.

Enforce all cheating with suspension. Its way to rampant in schools these days. Sleeping in class gets a 0 for the whole class that day. Add history and science to the SAT I. If you fail the graduation test more than twice you should have to take a class on that subject again.

 

[cnredd]

The problem with schools is that the curriculum is to easy.

Up the difficulty level by about 2-3 grade levels. Kids get bored quick.Also get rid of tenure and up the salaries by 50%-100% for teachers. Introduce longer school years and better written less watered down subject books and teachers guides.

Enforce all cheating with suspension. Its way to rampant in schools these days. Sleeping in class gets a 0 for the whole class that day. Add history and science to the SAT I. If you fail the graduation test more than twice you should have to take a class on that subject again.

In other words, you want them to do what should've been done all along....
accept responsibility.

 

[Kelzie]

The problem with schools is that the curriculum is to easy.
Up the difficulty level by about 2-3 grade levels. Kids get bored quick.Also get rid of tenure and up the salaries by 50%-100% for teachers. Introduce longer school years and better written less watered down subject books and teachers guides.

Enforce all cheating with suspension. Its way to rampant in schools these days. Sleeping in class gets a 0 for the whole class that day. Add history and science to the SAT I. If you fail the graduation test more than twice you should have to take a class on that subject again.

Hey, just because you were able to do stuff two grade levels ahead does not mean all kids are able to. If you raise the difficulty level by that much, be prepared for a massive amount of failure.

 

[Mikkel]

In other words, you want them to do what should've been done all along....
accept responsibility.

Who are "they"? Teachers? Liberals? Students?

 

[HTColeman]

I couldn't say for sure, but when I graduated from high school in 1961 we all could do basic math and all were literate. Can you claim the same today?

I just graduated and I say that high school did challenge me. In high school now, we can take AP classes (college level). My dad looks over my homework and often says, we didn't start going over this stuff until senior year or college! Besides I learned fractions in like the 2nd grade. BTW, I live in TX and it is said we have one of the lowest rated educational system, but that is due to a high population of immigrants that pull the numbers down simply because they have to learn ESL. So if TX graduates can all read, write, and do our arithmetic (imagine a senior in high school can do all of that!), I figure that most other states are the same if not better.

I don't think that kids today are any less gifted with brain cells today but that they haven't been provided with the necessary tools to make it in the modern world. I've read too many reports of executives of large corporations having to put their new employees in remedial education to believe it is just anecdotal.

I've never seen these reports could you prove it? BTW, one or two companies doing this does not mean the education system is failing at the hands of liberals.

And certainly we weren't taken up with the liberal propaganda programming that exists so much today. The statistics are overwhelming that kids today are programmed to be liberal and non-critical in their thinking. That's not an accidental happening

PUH-LEEZE! I fought to be liberal in Texas. My school was so republican it was ridiculous. Besides, have you heard of Channel 1? It is a student news station that most schools watch in one of their classes everyday. When they write in comments, most of them are republican, and when they did a mock votes for the 04 election, Bush won by a landslide, red states everywhere. Don't give me that "liberals are corrupting the system" crap.

 

[HTColeman]

Well whoop de do! Aren't you something? I guess all of these clowns I see on television must be representative of a different class of people. I suppose we ought to discard the observations of Bill Gates and other top executive officers who complain about the miserable state of our student's academic achievements. What would he know anyway? He's just an evil capitalist pig, isn't he?

Can you quote ole Bill plz? Also, if I am being evaluated by Bill Gates, then yea, I am going to seem like an idiot. He is not the average student, besides he dropped out of college.

If the educational system is so wonderful, why are there so many efforts to effect change? Evidently all of these groups must be misinformed. They didn't know of your school's outstanding results. It must be all conservative politics driving this and all of the homeschooling must be another conservative conspiracy too. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the NEA and the keeping incompetent teachers on the payroll, would it? Nah. No way.

There are changes for many reasons
1) Bush is in office and he just wants to change everything (don't take that seriously)
2) Many countries have advanced their educational systems and compared to them, we haven't advanced as much. It is not that we are failing, they have just made a lot of progress. Due to American Pride, we can't have them doing better than us.
3) Change is natural, it is a sign of progress. As technology advances, job requirements advance, which means that colleges are going to be harder to get into, resulting in a need to increase educational standards

 

[galenrox]

wait, trained to NOT think critically? I went to one of the most liberal public high schools in the country, and guess what, we have a CLASS called Critical Thinking. When I entered it, my teacher told us his opinion on the upcoming war in Iraq, and asked me my opinion of it, and I said I agreed with it. We debated it, and then he said that that was the purpose of this class.

You know what this class tought, essentially?
Question sources, all of the time
Minimize talking politics with people who agree with you, because this makes you feel righteous while it waters down the merit of your opinions
Question traditions

While when my girlfriend's mom was in high school in the 60s, you know what she was taught? Women can't do anything. No critical thinking, no women wearing jeans, no sports (the only female sport at her high school was future homemakers of america). So if you say WE'RE the ones not thinking critically, I have to beg to ****ing differ, because that is one of THE MOST proposterous things I have EVER heard!

 

[HTColeman]

wait, trained to NOT think critically? I went to one of the most liberal public high schools in the country, and guess what, we have a CLASS called Critical Thinking. When I entered it, my teacher told us his opinion on the upcoming war in Iraq, and asked me my opinion of it, and I said I agreed with it. We debated it, and then he said that that was the purpose of this class.

You know what this class tought, essentially?
Question sources, all of the time
Minimize talking politics with people who agree with you, because this makes you feel righteous while it waters down the merit of your opinions
Question traditions

While when my girlfriend's mom was in high school in the 60s, you know what she was taught? Women can't do anything. No critical thinking, no women wearing jeans, no sports (the only female sport at her high school was future homemakers of america). So if you say WE'RE the ones not thinking critically, I have to beg to ****ing differ, because that is one of THE MOST proposterous things I have EVER heard!

You almost made it through an entire post without using asterisks, almost.

 

[galenrox]

You almost made it through an entire post without using asterisks, almost.

man, it's how I was raised, you should hear me actually speak! I once unwittingly used a sentence with the f word 14 times!

 

[128shot]

man, it's how I was raised, you should hear me actually speak! I once unwittingly used a sentence with the f word 14 times!

my father was like that (may god rest his soul), it never transfered to me though.

I say **** alot though. Its such a versatile word, sorta like ****, but **** is much more dirty sounding than ****...


well, enough of that.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Actually, I'd say, as a liberal, our schools aren't doing well at all. It isn't because we're teaching math poorly but because we have a horrible student to teacher ratio, especially in inner city schools and the schools that most need funding don't get it.

So how about blaming the stupidity of Americans on underfunded public schools, while 'compassionate' conservatives only care about standardize testing their brains out.

How about we just junk the public school system and let a market based school system work? Oh, no we can't do that. The NEA won't approve since they exist almost entirely to protect incompetent teachers from getting fired. And they are a core of the corrupt Democratic party. So that won't happen and we'll just keep graduating nincompoops that can't add 2 and 2 and don't even know who the president was during the Civil War. That's your public school system today. A waste of money, a fraud and a waste of taxpayer money. Junk it.

 

[shuamort]

How about we just junk the public school system and let a market based school system work? Oh, no we can't do that. The NEA won't approve since they exist almost entirely to protect incompetent teachers from getting fired. And they are a core of the corrupt Democratic party. So that won't happen and we'll just keep graduating nincompoops that can't add 2 and 2 and don't even know who the president was during the Civil War. That's your public school system today. A waste of money, a fraud and a waste of taxpayer money. Junk it.

You really have no idea how LOCALIZED schools are, do you?

 

[Missouri Mule]

You really have no idea how LOCALIZED schools are, do you?

Why don't you tell me? And while you are at it, why don't you tell me how and why my tax dollars are earmarked to pay for the public school system and how a market based school system could possibly work? We have a monopoly on public education that is replete with inefficiencies, incompetent teachers, wasted money out the gazoo and never ending demands for more money for "teacher's pay", blah, blah, blah.

Get rid of the current system and let the market determine the value of people's efforts. I'll bet it'll be a lot better. And let's not forget the fact that home schooled children do significantly better than public school students. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[shuamort]

Why don't you tell me? And while you are at it, why don't you tell me how and why my tax dollars are earmarked to pay for the public school system and how a market based school system could possibly work? We have a monopoly on public education that is replete with inefficiencies, incompetent teachers, wasted money out the gazoo and never ending demands for more money for "teacher's pay", blah, blah, blah.

Get rid of the current system and let the market determine the value of people's efforts. I'll bet it'll be a lot better. And let's not forget the fact that home schooled children do significantly better than public school students. What's wrong with this picture?

http://www.prrac.org/full_text.php?text_id=971&item_id=8922&newsletter_id=0&header=Education

School budgets and the ways they are financed vary from state to state and school district to school district. Generally, though, states use a combination of income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and fees to provide about 50 percent of the budget for elementary and secondary schools. Local districts contribute around 43 percent, drawn mostly from local property taxes. The federal government provides about 7 percent of state education budgets (National Center for Education Statistics, 2003).

School funding has traditionally been viewed as the province of local government. However, advocates for educational equity often criticize the localized nature of school funding because wealthier districts, due to their higher tax revenues, are able to provide better educational opportunity to their students. School funding plans have been challenged in over 30 states, with ongoing cases pending in New Jersey and New York. Information on these, and other school finance suits, can be found at The Campaign for Fiscal Equity or The Education Law Center.

 

[shuamort]

We have a monopoly on public education that is replete with inefficiencies, incompetent teachers, wasted money out the gazoo and never ending demands for more money for "teacher's pay", blah, blah, blah.

You do really that that makes no sense.

 

[Missouri Mule]

http://www.prrac.org/full_text.php?text_id=971&item_id=8922&newsletter_id=0&header=Education

School budgets and the ways they are financed vary from state to state and school district to school district. Generally, though, states use a combination of income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and fees to provide about 50 percent of the budget for elementary and secondary schools. Local districts contribute around 43 percent, drawn mostly from local property taxes. The federal government provides about 7 percent of state education budgets (National Center for Education Statistics, 2003).

School funding has traditionally been viewed as the province of local government. However, advocates for educational equity often criticize the localized nature of school funding because wealthier districts, due to their higher tax revenues, are able to provide better educational opportunity to their students. School funding plans have been challenged in over 30 states, with ongoing cases pending in New Jersey and New York. Information on these, and other school finance suits, can be found at The Campaign for Fiscal Equity or The Education Law Center.

Tell me again why we have a bloated Department of Education? And who pushed for that department anyway? (If this is so local?)

I can tell you for a fact that we have had some seven or so "special sessions" down here in Texas to come up with plans to fund public education. And they are still fighting about it. It is NOT a local matter.

It is an outrage of the first degree. I don't know what they have where you live but where I live we are having our pockets picked in our sales and real estate taxes to fix a bankrupt education system. I'm sure they will find money to pay their grossly overpaid administrators and other special interests and build those fancy sports facilities. They always find money for those "important" things. And the book manufacturers are stealing the public blind with their outrageously expensive and politically correct textbooks. It stinks to high heaven. Junk it.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Sure, we have great public schools -- not. Read on. It's pouring money down a rathole.
======================
Posted on Wed, Aug. 03, 2005

Nearly half of Fayette schools fail fed standard

By Raviya H. Ismail

HERALD-LEADER EDUCATION WRITER

Nearly half of Fayette County schools failed to meet federal standards under the No Child Left Behind act this year as measured through state tests in reading and math.

According to data released yesterday, 23 Fayette schools out of 51 failed to meet those standards, including four of the county's five high schools. Statewide, 311 schools out of 1,198 did not meet goals under No Child Left Behind...

(Snip)

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/12289269.htm

 

[IndiConservative]

Hey, just because you were able to do stuff two grade levels ahead does not mean all kids are able to. If you raise the difficulty level by that much, be prepared for a massive amount of failure.

If you put tougher goals in front of children they will strive to achieve those goals. Right now you only have 5 years to graduate. If it takes you longer than that so be it but at least you will learn something. Failure isn't the end of the road learn from your mistakes and keep going. If it takes 6 years thats fine you will be proud of your diploma

Disipline should be a lot tougher so there is no wiggle room for screwing around. Possibly even uniforms as well. Elitism amongst the teachers and administrators should not be tolerated either.

 

[Kelzie]

Instead of some op-ed piece, I found some real facts, which you ignored. Not surprising. I'll post it again for you.

From the National Center for Education Statistics:

"The average reading scores of students at ages 9 and 13 were higher in 2004 than in 1971"

"The average mathematics scores of students at ages 9 and 13 were higher in 2004 than in 1973."

Now if you pay close attention, you'll see that children are actually doing better on average, which leaves you where? Oh that's right. Wrong.

 

[Kelzie]

If you put tougher goals in front of children they will strive to achieve those goals. Right now you only have 5 years to graduate. If it takes you longer than that so be it but at least you will learn something. Failure isn't the end of the road learn from your mistakes and keep going. If it takes 6 years thats fine you will be proud of your diploma

Disipline should be a lot tougher so there is no wiggle room for screwing around. Possibly even uniforms as well. Elitism amongst the teachers and administrators should not be tolerated either.

What do you mean five years to graduate? And it's one thing to give kids better goals, but raising the difficulty two grade levels is way too hard for the average first grader.

 

[IndiConservative]

In traditional high schools they give you until 18-19 to graduate. After that you have to go to a high school for 18-19 to 21. Thats what its like here at least. Honestly I think they would grasp the curriculum pretty well. It should require some degree of difficulty.