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The "New Math" More liberal "touchy-feely" (expletive deleted)

Missouri Mule said:
I graduated in 1961 and can assure you that all of us in our class of 150 can add 2 plus 2 and know the presidents. I can't speak for the kids of 1971. I guess that's the time that the liberals took over things which happens to be the time that LBJ's "Great Society" came into being and the money vaults were thrown open to the greedy and corrupt. And education went into the toilet.

I've not studied your numbers. Let me say this. I spent the last years of my working life working with statistics. I know how easily they can be manipulated. Don't be so sure how accurate they are. As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics." Remember that always if you don't agree with anything else I say.

Maybe the issue is that there is more to education these days than simply memorizing facts. I honestly couldn't tell you when all of the presidents served in order. I've got google for that. The real issue here is that education has less to do with what is taught materially (with math being somewhat of an exception), but how teachers get students to think about things constructively and critically.

Forcing people to memorize these facts that you could easily find in a manner of seconds is an archaic method of teaching children.

It doesn't matter that you can recite shakespeare if you don't know what it means.
 
Mikkel said:
I see the problems, I follow the money. The problem isn't the source, it's the fact that there isn't enough money to begin with.

Go respond to Kelzie, she really wants you to.

And how much money is that? Are you of age where you are actually paying taxes? When you are, let me know. OK?
 
Missouri Mule said:
I graduated in 1961 and can assure you that all of us in our class of 150 can add 2 plus 2 and know the presidents. I can't speak for the kids of 1971. I guess that's the time that the liberals took over things which happens to be the time that LBJ's "Great Society" came into being and the money vaults were thrown open to the greedy and corrupt. And education went into the toilet.

I've not studied your numbers. Let me say this. I spent the last years of my working life working with statistics. I know how easily they can be manipulated. Don't be so sure how accurate they are. As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics." Remember that always if you don't agree with anything else I say.

How predictable. The numbers are wrong. Kids really are dumber than they used to be. I've given some numbers. Now it's your turn. Pony up. How about one on the number of kids graduating who can't add or read.
 
Kelzie said:
How predictable. The numbers are wrong. Kids really are dumber than they used to be. I've given some numbers. Now it's your turn. Pony up. How about one on the number of kids graduating who can't add or read.

I didn't say the numbers were wrong. I said I hadn't studied them and then I told you about what I did for a living in the REAL world. I know how statistics are fudged. For example, I can tell you for a virtual certainty that the "No kid left behind" is a sham and a fraud, but the numbers won't reflect that.
 
Missouri Mule said:
And how much money is that? Are you of age where you are actually paying taxes? When you are, let me know. OK?

I've been paying taxes for years now, and I've been glad to do it. Don't patronize me. Anyway, if you're mainly complaining about sales tax, I've been paying taxes since I was 5 years old.

You do a good job of telling other people that they're wrong but don't add anything substantial to your argument except rhetoric and rant. Any evidence supporting you would be accepted, but instead you choose to remain hard nosed on something that is clearly a personal, rather than political, issue for you.
 
Missouri Mule said:
In my ideal school we don't have security guards and all of that other stuff. It's either shape up or ship out. You could put a security combination lock on the front door or some other kind of security system to keep out the bad ones. The school children are there to learn; period. The trouble makers are outta there. The bad ones can be sent to reform school like they did in the old days. In those days the judges told these delinquents to go to jail or into the military. A lot of these punks actually went on and became national heroes in the old days and onto good productive lives. There wasn't any of that touchy-feely nonsense back then. And it didn't cost much either.
That would be impractical for several reasons, first and foremost, there were 3,000 students at my high school, so having a key code would just be pointless.
As far as the shape up or ship out policy, that would pose a problem if they were strict with the use, since our parents paid a lot of money in property taxes to be able to send us to the school.
And those punks and delinquents you speak of, that was me. I would've been on the first busload out of there, and that wouldn't have solved any of my problems. I have a lot of friends whose folks sent them away, and not a single one of them ended up well by any means. Most of them came back angry and with a coke problem. While for me, I went, didn't like it, didn't do to well, and since I was left to deal with my own problems, I was able to. One size fits all solutions are just proposterous. It's not touchy feely, it's leave them the **** alone, it seems a lot more touchy feely to force them to go everywhere and to suck the life out of them. We're talking about a high school, not a Hitler youth training camp.
 
Missouri Mule said:
I didn't say the numbers were wrong. I said I hadn't studied them and then I told you about what I did for a living in the REAL world. I know how statistics are fudged. For example, I can tell you for a virtual certainty that the "No kid left behind" is a sham and a fraud, but the numbers won't reflect that.

So we're to take your word on that, are we? I recognize that numbers can be fudged, but that doesn't make you right and us wrong. It just means that the numbers don't support you, so to defend your position, you attack the numbers.
 
Mikkel said:
I've been paying taxes for years now, and I've been glad to do it. Don't patronize me. Anyway, if you're mainly complaining about sales tax, I've been paying taxes since I was 5 years old.

You do a good job of telling other people that they're wrong but don't add anything substantial to your argument except rhetoric and rant. Any evidence supporting you would be accepted, but instead you choose to remain hard nosed on something that is clearly a personal, rather than political, issue for you.

You like paying taxes, do you? Do you also like your tax dollars wasted as well? Do you honestly sit there and want to tell me we are getting good value for our money? Gimme a break. I was born, but not yesterday.

BTW, I did give some very relevant facts; quite specific, actually. I pointed out the size of our national budget in the 1960s and what it is now and the relative increase in our inflation. And if you really want an eye opener go back and look at the national budget prior to WWII or before that, check when we had no national income tax. Funny how we managed without all those dollars flowing into Washington and our state capitols. But it is never enough to satisfy the liberal lobby. Gimme, gimme, gimme is their rallying cry.

I've had liberals tell me that they love paying taxes. They point to such places as Sweden and tell me what a wonderful place it must be with all of their socialized medicine and the like. The question I always have, is if you like it so much, why don't you go live there, then? Renounce your American citizenship and live in these socialist paradises. Or they could go down to the wonderful island paradise of Cuba where everyone is equally poor and impoverished and medical care is free (or supposedly so.) Somehow they never seem to want to do that. Wonder why?
 
Missouri Mule said:
I didn't say the numbers were wrong. I said I hadn't studied them and then I told you about what I did for a living in the REAL world. I know how statistics are fudged. For example, I can tell you for a virtual certainty that the "No kid left behind" is a sham and a fraud, but the numbers won't reflect that.

I don't care what you do for a living in the REAL world. So, still no evidence on your part huh? I wish I could debate solely on my opinion like you do. But alas, I feel it necessary to provide facts to back up what I'm saying.
 
Mikkel said:
So we're to take your word on that, are we? I recognize that numbers can be fudged, but that doesn't make you right and us wrong. It just means that the numbers don't support you, so to defend your position, you attack the numbers.

I'm not going to take up my time to analyze these numbers. I don't have the time or inclination. I used to pour over numbers every day on spreadsheets and the like to see what was going on. The old saying that "garbage in and garbage out" is still true, even today.

What I do know for a fact is that our prisons are filling up with the uneducated. And I don't have to study the numbers to know that and neither do you.
 
Missouri Mule said:
I'm not going to take up my time to analyze these numbers. I don't have the time or inclination. I used to pour over numbers every day on spreadsheets and the like to see what was going on. The old saying that "garbage in and garbage out" is still true, even today.

What I do know for a fact is that our prisons are filling up with the uneducated. And I don't have to study the numbers to know that and neither do you.

So now you have moved from "the numbers are wrong, so you're wrong" to "I'm to lazy to look at the numbers, so you're wrong". At least you're honest.

The uneducated you say? Strange. It's almost as if you drop out of high school, you won't learn anything. And I'm still waiting for proof that high school grads can't add or read.
 
Missouri Mule said:
You like paying taxes, do you? Do you also like your tax dollars wasted as well? Do you honestly sit there and want to tell me we are getting good value for our money? Gimme a break. I was born, but not yesterday.

BTW, I did give some very relevant facts; quite specific, actually. I pointed out the size of our national budget in the 1960s and what it is now and the relative increase in our inflation. And if you really want an eye opener go back and look at the national budget prior to WWII or before that, check when we had no national income tax. Funny how we managed without all those dollars flowing into Washington and our state capitols. But it is never enough to satisfy the liberal lobby. Gimme, gimme, gimme is their rallying cry.

I've had liberals tell me that they love paying taxes. They point to such places as Sweden and tell me what a wonderful place it must be with all of their socialized medicine and the like. The question I always have, is if you like it so much, why don't you go live there, then? Renounce your American citizenship and live in these socialist paradises. Or they could go down to the wonderful island paradise of Cuba where everyone is equally poor and impoverished and medical care is free (or supposedly so.) Somehow they never seem to want to do that. Wonder why?

The difference is that I don't believe my tax dollars are being wasted, except for a stupid quagmire in Iraq. I'd rather spend billions of dollars on an inneficient educational system than an inneficient war any day of the week.

You keep going back to WWII like it's some kind of golden time where everything was perfect. Guess what? It wasn't. Our way of life has improved tremendously since then, and I'm glad that more national spending is going towards education.

I live in america because, despite the fact the system isn't perfect, it's pretty good. YOU'RE the one who is complaining about the educational system. If you want to go somewhere where they don't go easy on the kids, why don't you renounce your citizenship and move to China? I hear they're pretty rough on their youth.

No one likes giving their money away, but most feel that their taxes aren't a complete waste of money, apparently, unlike you.
 
Missouri Mule said:
Now you have gone off the deep end.

First of all, I didn't even vote for Bush. You implied that I did.

Secondly, my main beef is that the inner city students ARE not being educated. It's not an "at all" situation. It's a fact.

The problem that I have with liberals is that they are supremely naive and incapable of critical thinking. During the Great Depression "relief" came to the people who were on the verge of starvation. We had something on the order of 1/3 of the working people out of work and people were barely able to survive. My own family lived in southeast Missouri as sharecroppers and didn't have a pot to **** in. They had to eat the bark off of trees and in bad times had to boil their shoes to have something to eat. A good day's pay was a $1 a day if you could find work. But then the war came along with it and with it came relative prosperity.

Moving right along, things progressed until the LBJ came up with his "Great Society." He had great power with both the presidency, and huge majorities in Congress. They went hog wild with all of these liberal programs. If I recall correctly the national budget didn't exceed $100 billion unitl the mid or late 60's. It is now $2.8 trillion dollars. We have NOT had 2,800 % inflation since then. Maybe 500-600% inflation but not 2,800% inflation. Meanwhile all of this tax money has gone in to fund the schemes the government bureaucrats could concoct and to buy the continued votes of the constituents of Congress to where they now have virtual lifetime employment in D.C. That's where we are today.

When I began school in 1949, I went to a one room school house on a hill about a mile from where I lived. I walked to school as did all my classmates. There were eight grades in that school house. We took our lunches to school in our lunch boxes and ate in the basement. We had our recesses where we played on the swings and softball in the adjoining field. There were no sports programs that needed funding. We didn't have school "counselors" and all of that liberal mumbo-jumbo crap that passes for education today. And if one stepped out of line, the teacher rapped our knuckles or called the parents to take their brats home. Later on, I attended an area wide school district and rode a school bus 12 miles to the high school I attended. I was kicked off the bus and made to walk to and from the school to my home for pulling a girl's hair on the bus. The principal walked the halls with a paddle in his hand and woe to anyone stepping out of line. One time a made a wisecrack in class and the teacher slapped me in the face. That got my attention.

What we have today are glorified day care centers for the kids to get them out of the house so the parents can do their thing. Then the kids come home and do their thing. Our prisons are filling up with these kids who can't do fundamental skills to hold a job so instead they hold up liquor and convenience stores. One of the growing industries in Texas is our ever increasing prison system. That's the net result of the failing education system of today. Why would anyone, liberal or conservative, want to preserve that system? Beats the hell out of me.

And you are saying that schools back in the 1950s are better than now? We have counselors that help us schedule classes and achieve a career goal. We have sports (though they spend to much money on them) and extracurricular activities to enrich our minds, and keep us busy. We have several class rooms, some college sized high schools. As I said in my first post, we have the option to take college level classes, we have curriculums. I don't know what high schools you are talking about that can't read and add. Referring to another post you put up, I guarantee you every in every high school, graduates know how to read and know what 2+2 is. Maybe you are just being dramatic, I don't know. You can't get past the 1st grade without knowing that.

The criminals you speak of, for the most part, come from inner city schools were they can't afford the extra-curricular activities. So they go from school and sit at home, exposed to gangs, violence, and way to much time on their hands. Also, these criminals are mostly high-school drop outs, as someone else mentioned.
 
Missouri Mule said:
You like paying taxes, do you? Do you also like your tax dollars wasted as well? Do you honestly sit there and want to tell me we are getting good value for our money? Gimme a break. I was born, but not yesterday.

People have been paying taxes since before Jesus, it is a necessary part of society. So stop complaining about it

BTW, I did give some very relevant facts; quite specific, actually. I pointed out the size of our national budget in the 1960s and what it is now and the relative increase in our inflation. And if you really want an eye opener go back and look at the national budget prior to WWII or before that, check when we had no national income tax. Funny how we managed without all those dollars flowing into Washington and our state capitols. But it is never enough to satisfy the liberal lobby. Gimme, gimme, gimme is their rallying cry.

We can't go back to using policies from the 1930's, b/c America has changed, and is changing. Why do we change? To try and improve, we realized that many things, like children working in factories and people not being able to go to school, were bad, so we changed. With change, comes changed policies. It is how life works. And do you have some personal vindetta against democrats?

I've had liberals tell me that they love paying taxes. They point to such places as Sweden and tell me what a wonderful place it must be with all of their socialized medicine and the like. The question I always have, is if you like it so much, why don't you go live there, then? Renounce your American citizenship and live in these socialist paradises. Or they could go down to the wonderful island paradise of Cuba where everyone is equally poor and impoverished and medical care is free (or supposedly so.) Somehow they never seem to want to do that. Wonder why?

Well if you disagree with American education so much, go to Japan, they have high education expectations. They have to test and pay to get into high school. The ones that don't make the tests, oh well, some minimum wage job, too bad.
 
Kelzie, i never knew that..

and you know, we're 41st in education because we test all students, most countrys just test the bright ones and ship the rest off to trade school...


I still hate public school, but I took my own means and time to figure out a way to dodge it, so I'm now going to graduate much faster than normal, it has become just a 7 hour vacation for me....

and soon enough, I'll be done with it. I prefere to be self taught, and thats that.
 
galenrox said:
they do that in a lot of schools. They did that in mine.

We had some AP classes and LD (learing disability). Not to much to speak of though. Your school had 50 security guards though. Thats nuts we had about the same size of 3000 people but only 1 or 2 guards. They sat in there office most of the time and watched the weather channel.

I suppose thats the main problem is not having equal funding for all schools. The money is there though. Just take a look at the pork package the senate just passed. That should be enough money to fix a lot of the problems. Money doesn't fix everything but it sure helps.
 
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