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The Loss of Trust

Sandokan

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The Loss of Trust
The Loss of Trust - Thomas Sowell - Page 1

Thomas Sowell

Amid all the heated cross-currents of debate about the National Security Agency's massive surveillance program, there is a growing distrust of the Obama administration that makes weighing the costs and benefits of the NSA program itself hard to assess.

The belated recognition of this administration's contempt for the truth, for the American people and for the Constitution of the United States, has been long overdue.

But what if the NSA program has in fact thwarted terrorists and saved many American lives in ways that cannot be revealed publicly?

Nothing is easier than saying that you still don't want your telephone records collected by the government. But the first time you have to collect the remains of your loved ones, after they have been killed by terrorists, telephone records can suddenly seem like a small price to pay to prevent such things.
Progressives have turned the education system into leftist indoctrination centers, patriotism into jingoism, moral values into sexist, racist, intolerant, and rule of law into rule of man. Freedom comes with responsibility, actions had consequences and words meant something. Nowadays everything is relative, there is no real right and wrong because it all depends on the perspective of the individual. Many people want the freedom to do anything they want with no consequences.
 

Zalatix

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Please state the examples of leftist indoctrination.

Please explain where patriotism has been turned into jingoism.

Please explain which moral values have been unfairly characterized as racism, sexism or intolerance.

Please explain where your addendum-post, which ranted about the educational system, was in any way related to the police state nonsense that Sowell spouted.
 

ttwtt78640

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Progressives have turned the education system into leftist indoctrination centers, patriotism into jingoism, moral values into sexist, racist, intolerant, and rule of law into rule of man. Freedom comes with responsibility, actions had consequences and words meant something. Nowadays everything is relative, there is no real right and wrong because it all depends on the perspective of the individual. Many people want the freedom to do anything they want with no consequences.
It all comes down to cost benefit analysis. Safety, as defined as the absence risk, is unattainable. One can, however, take reasonable precautions to avoid known risks. Take, for example, the 9/11/2001 terror attacks - the basis for much of the Patriot Act; they involved the coordnated planning of at least 20 people, armed with boxcutters, in a plot to drive commercial aircraft into buildings. Much emphasis was then placed on how to prevent such an attack in the future. My personal preference was simply to work harder on the airline security aspect, secure the cockpit cabins and arm the crew, but many chose to try to use greatly expanded SIGINT to try to discover the identity of all terrorist agents (in the U.S.) before they could execute a similar terrorist attack, even if that involved using a completely different method, say the coordinated poisoning of turkeys just ahead of Thanksgiving.
 

Velvet Elvis

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They don't care in the very least.


....obey citizen.
 

Cyrylek

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Many people want the freedom to do anything they want with no consequences. [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
I do "want the freedom" to talk to my friends and relatives without my every word being entered into government databases, screened by some dumb software for "red flag" figures of speech, and interpreted according to whatever the current the Supreme Parteigenosse Kommissar ( or is it - I am so sorry - the appointed drone of some cynical career politician democratically elected as a slightly lesser evil?) - wants to hear.

Been there, done that.

Look, I respect Tom Sowell - a lot. But I don't think he really understands what all this is about. He was not born and raised in Europe. I was. My first rational thought after 9/11 ( took a week or so to form, I admit) was: This should not become our Burning of the Reichstag (Reichstagsbrand - google it!).

So sue me.
 

Occam's Razor

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Progressives have turned the education system into leftist indoctrination centers, patriotism into jingoism, moral values into sexist, racist, intolerant, and rule of law into rule of man. Freedom comes with responsibility, actions had consequences and words meant something. Nowadays everything is relative, there is no real right and wrong because it all depends on the perspective of the individual. Many people want the freedom to do anything they want with no consequences.
The loss of trust transcends the current administration and specific party. To myopically focus so narrowly is to allow the problem to continue.
 

ttwtt78640

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The loss of trust transcends the current administration and specific party. To myopically focus so narrowly is to allow the problem to continue.
Quite true. Good intentions do not guarantee good results.
 

head of joaquin

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Conservative pass the Patriot Act, after demagoguing 9-11, and now they blame Obama for what they put into law.

Obamaphobia - you're soaking in it.
 

thinkforyoursel

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Please state the examples of leftist indoctrination.

Please explain where patriotism has been turned into jingoism.

Please explain which moral values have been unfairly characterized as racism, sexism or intolerance.

Please explain where your addendum-post, which ranted about the educational system, was in any way related to the police state nonsense that Sowell spouted.
Understand the gospel according to the right ......what isn't right-wing- indoctrination .....must be ...left wing wing indoctrination!

You get it?
 

Oceandan

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Truth, is never indoctrination............well ok cepting for those on the left who continue to want to repeat over and over ineffective "feel good" solutions that only serve to worsen the challenge.
 

Occam's Razor

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Conservative pass the Patriot Act, after demagoguing 9-11, and now they blame Obama for what they put into law.

Obamaphobia - you're soaking in it.
Actually, Biden drafted the core of the Patriot Act during the Clinton admin. The republicans soundly smacked it down and even went so far as to assemble a list of reasons why the act was unconstitutional. There are no innocents in this where parties are concerned. Both are rotten to the core.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-constitution/163672-real-history-domestic-spying.html
 

head of joaquin

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Actually, Biden drafted the core of the Patriot Act during the Clinton admin. The republicans soundly smacked it down and even went so far as to assemble a list of reasons why the act was unconstitutional. There are no innocents in this where parties are concerned. Both are rotten to the core.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-constitution/163672-real-history-domestic-spying.html
Nope. The Patriot Act was a Bush/GOP bill from the get go. When Democrats objected they played the Patriot card and claimed that liberals were coddling terrorists.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily/why-the-gop-isn-t-attacking-obama-over-data-collection-20130610

But if you're saying Democratic progressives should never ever cooperate with conservatives and their contempt for civil rights, I agree.
 
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Occam's Razor

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Nope. The Patriot Act was a Bush/GOP bill from the get go. When Democrats objected they played the Patriot card and claimed that liberals were coddling terrorists.
Why the GOP Isn't Attacking Obama Over Data Collection - NationalJournal.com

But if you're saying Democratic progressives should never ever cooperate with conservatives and their contempt for civil rights, I agree.
Now, you're dead wrong. Even Biden says he wrote it. Follow the link I sent you and the links therein. Enlighten yourself.

And no, I'm saying it's time for everyone to stop playing party loyalist stooge and realize that neither party has ANY of your interests in mind.
 

fmw

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I'm saying it's time for everyone to stop playing party loyalist stooge and realize that neither party has ANY of your interests in mind.
That, sadly is the truth.
 

Sandokan

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Our leaders are chosen by how good they look or sound not by their moral character or their achievements. The MSM decide what is important and don't force them to tell the truth. The politicians and the media lost the Vietnam War. Seem that a similar scenario is unfolding today in Iraq, where the military won the war, only to have politicians about to lose the peace. Well if we sacrifice liberty for safety, eventually we will have neither.
 

poweRob

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Our leaders are chosen by how good they look or sound not by their moral character or their achievements. The MSM decide what is important and don't force them to tell the truth. The politicians and the media lost the Vietnam War. Seem that a similar scenario is unfolding today in Iraq, where the military won the war, only to have politicians about to lose the peace. Well if we sacrifice liberty for safety, eventually we will have neither.
Wait wait wait... you started with an OP that is basically a directive on how we need to follow authoritarianism MORE to protect us and then this post, which has nothing to do with anyone else's post... even your own OP... is ended with a partially stolen Ben Franklin quote about NOT sacrificing liberties for safety? A pretty much 180 from your instructions in the OP.

I'm interested in seeing you clarify what you are saying so that we all could understand what you are trying to say with this thread.
 

Sandokan

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Wait wait wait... you started with an OP that is basically a directive on how we need to follow authoritarianism MORE to protect us and then this post, which has nothing to do with anyone else's post... even your own OP... is ended with a partially stolen Ben Franklin quote about NOT sacrificing liberties for safety? A pretty much 180 from your instructions in the OP.

I'm interested in seeing you clarify what you are saying so that we all could understand what you are trying to say with this thread.
It is very clear there is nothing that needs to be clarified. Sorry you don’t get it.

The IRS director visited the White House 156 times. The IRS targeted conservative non-profits organizations, gave donor lists from confidential tax return of the National Organization on Marriage to their political Democratic opponent Human Rights Campaign. Obama says the NSA data base is secure. The distrust is so strong and so deep that every time Obama or any of his appointees open their mouths, many people believe it is just more lies, deception and false accusations. Trust, once lost, is likely not to be fully forgiven.
 

fmw

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I stopped trusting the federal government in the 1960's. Where have you all been?
 

Thoreau72

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It all comes down to cost benefit analysis. Safety, as defined as the absence risk, is unattainable. One can, however, take reasonable precautions to avoid known risks. Take, for example, the 9/11/2001 terror attacks - the basis for much of the Patriot Act; they involved the coordnated planning of at least 20 people, armed with boxcutters, in a plot to drive commercial aircraft into buildings. Much emphasis was then placed on how to prevent such an attack in the future. My personal preference was simply to work harder on the airline security aspect, secure the cockpit cabins and arm the crew, but many chose to try to use greatly expanded SIGINT to try to discover the identity of all terrorist agents (in the U.S.) before they could execute a similar terrorist attack, even if that involved using a completely different method, say the coordinated poisoning of turkeys just ahead of Thanksgiving.
The War On Terror is a hoax that many have fallen for. In truth, more people die from improper medical procedures than die from "terrorist events". More people die from lightning strikes than from 'terrorist events'. But fear-mongering has long been a tool of government, especially the US government, and H.L. Mencken wrote about it nearly a century ago.

Still, people like to go see horror movies to scare themselves, and some people love to embrace their inner cowards, whether in the theater or in the headlines.

The loss of trust in government is widespread today. One might make the argument that trusting the government is irrational, but still, one would like to think that governance in accordance with constitutional principles is at least possible.
 

thinkforyoursel

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Yes sir...until Obama ....we've always had a government we could trust!!

.......and I have the Brooklyn bridge for sale ...any takers?:lamo
 

Sandokan

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This administration cannot be trusted as proven by their conduct while in office. It has used its agencies to work against ordinary citizens whom they deemed to be political adversaries while ignoring the places where actual terrorist plots develop. The policies that are in place aren’t the problem. Most of the persons being questioned by Congress on the current scandals seem to be lying.
 

head of joaquin

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Progressives have turned the education system into leftist indoctrination centers, patriotism into jingoism, moral values into sexist, racist, intolerant, and rule of law into rule of man. Freedom comes with responsibility, actions had consequences and words meant something. Nowadays everything is relative, there is no real right and wrong because it all depends on the perspective of the individual. Many people want the freedom to do anything they want with no consequences.
I count fifteen freaky discredited rightwing memes in this one paragraph. It must be a record. Did you get this from Breitbart or Freepers?
 

head of joaquin

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This administration cannot be trusted as proven by their conduct while in office. It has used its agencies to work against ordinary citizens whom they deemed to be political adversaries while ignoring the places where actual terrorist plots develop. The policies that are in place aren’t the problem. Most of the persons being questioned by Congress on the current scandals seem to be lying.
So you oppose the Patriot Act based by Bush and crew?
 

thinkforyoursel

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This administration cannot be trusted as proven by their conduct while in office. It has used its agencies to work against ordinary citizens whom they deemed to be political adversaries while ignoring the places where actual terrorist plots develop. The policies that are in place aren’t the problem. Most of the persons being questioned by Congress on the current scandals seem to be lying.
...aww shad up!! You goons are too much ...anybody who casually watch bush 8 years and compares it with Obama can clearly understand your fake outrage.

Pull Obama out of office today ....insert any republican and ....you guys flip flop and aggressively defend the same thing you're whining about today!!

Hell the way you goons howled about a statement made by the Dixie chicks when Bush was in .....you'd be storming the Russian embassy right now to get Snowden for ratting out the country.

But....but it's Obama ...so instead Snowden is your hero ...and Vladimir Putin your savior .....like I said ....SHAD-UP!!
 

DVSentinel

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Conservative pass the Patriot Act, after demagoguing 9-11, and now they blame Obama for what they put into law.

Obamaphobia - you're soaking in it.
And yet Obama and his henchpeople ignore the law and constitution liberally but somehow think they should follow that one to the maximum extent they can. Hmmm, wonder why that is?
 
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