The llusion of freedom

[epr64]

Did people vote Hugo Chavez into power in Venezuela? Yes. Are they free? Not by our standards.

Well, this is OT, but I would love to know what you mean by this.

Maybe we could start a thred 'bout that?

CU
Y

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Lets be honest here I'm cutting the crap and long explanations but how is democracy freedom. Since this is mainly American i will use the American format. Your total input into democracy is once every 4 years you get two candidates to choice from.

Now ask yourself this question are john Kerry and George bush the two most capable and suitable choices to be able to be in charge of America than anyone else?

also

should everyone be able to vote when a large percentage of people who, do vote or can vote have no real grasp of what the party they vote for policy's are?.

Well said! "Democracy" is the illusion that the real power brokers,the international bankers use to lull the masses into believing the lie that they have some say in how their world is ordered!

 

[MiamiFlorida]

There's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez! I'm still wondering why America went to such lengths to get Hugo out of power, just because he's friends with a dictator doesn't mean he's a bad leader. Believe it or not, by my standards, they are free. When I was in Venezuela's captial of Caracus, you can get an illusion that you're in a very run-down part of Detroit. Is poverty a HUGE issue in Venezuela? Yes. Does that mean they're not free? No, they're as free as you and I.

I too have been in Venezuela....many times.

-Hugo Chavez was elected by popular vote the first time around. There's no arguing that. He cheated on the referendum the second time.

-Let's forget that as a military officer, Castro's Mini-Me tried to overthrow the legitimate government of Carlos Andres Perez.

-He has been unable to bridge the huge gap between rich and poor. He has taken over the media (no more free press or television). He's slowly, but surely eliminating private enterprise. He arrests government, court, police and military officials who resist his total takeover on trumped-up charges. His henchmen fire at will against peaceful demonstrators.


- He's arming Venezuela to the teeth, supporting the FARC guerrilla in Colombia (which seek to overthrow a democracy) and letting them use the Venezuelan border to evade Colombian government forces, resupply and recuperate.


-In Peru, Chavez bankrolled the rogue army officer who tried to incite December's rebellion against elected President Alejandro Toledo. In Bolivia, he supported revolutionary Evo Morales.

-Venezuela is stirring the security pot, sowing fear among its neighbors. From Russia, Chavez is buying 50 advanced MiG-29 fighters, 40 helicopter gunships and 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles. He's also bought arms from Spain and Brazil.
Chavez also plans to increase the size of the army reserve as "an honorable answer to President Bush's intention of being the master of the world."


-Chavez's main motivation now is to do everything he possibly can to negatively affect the United States . . . trying to bring together all the enemies of the United States. He idolizes Castro, is chummy with Libya's Khadafi, calls muslim terrorists "freedom fighters", supported Saddam Hussein.

-Now he says he's going to spread his revolution throughout Latin America.

You may think there's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez, but I tell you that sooner or later we're going to have to deal with him.

 

[Arch Enemy]

I too have been in Venezuela....many times.

-Hugo Chavez was elected by popular vote the first time around. There's no arguing that. He cheated on the referendum the second time.

-Let's forget that as a military officer, Castro's Mini-Me tried to overthrow the legitimate government of Carlos Andres Perez.

-He has been unable to bridge the huge gap between rich and poor. He has taken over the media (no more free press or television). He's slowly, but surely eliminating private enterprise. He arrests government, court, police and military officials who resist his total takeover on trumped-up charges. His henchmen fire at will against peaceful demonstrators.


- He's arming Venezuela to the teeth, supporting the FARC guerrilla in Colombia (which seek to overthrow a democracy) and letting them use the Venezuelan border to evade Colombian government forces, resupply and recuperate.


-In Peru, Chavez bankrolled the rogue army officer who tried to incite December's rebellion against elected President Alejandro Toledo. In Bolivia, he supported revolutionary Evo Morales.

-Venezuela is stirring the security pot, sowing fear among its neighbors. From Russia, Chavez is buying 50 advanced MiG-29 fighters, 40 helicopter gunships and 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles. He's also bought arms from Spain and Brazil.
Chavez also plans to increase the size of the army reserve as "an honorable answer to President Bush's intention of being the master of the world."


-Chavez's main motivation now is to do everything he possibly can to negatively affect the United States . . . trying to bring together all the enemies of the United States. He idolizes Castro, is chummy with Libya's Khadafi, calls muslim terrorists "freedom fighters", supported Saddam Hussein.

-Now he says he's going to spread his revolution throughout Latin America.

You may think there's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez, but I tell you that sooner or later we're going to have to deal with him.

When was the last time you've been there?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

And Frank Zappa is freaking nuts. Not to mention he regurgitates that crap pretty poorly.

What's your point?

Since you are a student, I will make this available to you.
Apologies for the poor audio quality but it is definitely worth a listen.
Frank Zappa on KFI

Sorry, but I dont think you've ever really listened to Zappa's thoughts on freedom. You may or may not like his music, but if after listening to his thoughts on freedom you still think he is nuts it will tell me a lot about your position.

Cheers,
JeffH CHS

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Well said! "Democracy" is the illusion that the real power brokers,the international bankers use to lull the masses into believing the lie that they have some say in how their world is ordered!

The true definifinition of American democracy:
"Two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner."

Besides, America never WAS a democracy and was never INTENDED to BE a democracy so please stop helping the Bush administration spread the NWO lies.

America was founded as a democratically ELECTED representative consitutional republic....PERIOD.

Democracy is like oxygen...it its pure form it is way too volatile and it always explodes. The resulting product is nothing more than "the manufacture of consent", also known as mob rule.

JeffH CHS

 

[MiamiFlorida]

When was the last time you've been there?

June of this year.

 

[Arch Enemy]

June of this year.

Oh, I went Janurary.

I do hope they resolve their issues, I'd hate to get bad E-mails from friends there.. We just built a church there recently.



That's why I'm a Christian! Up-grading the life of fellow humans, instead of taking them down.

If I may ask so, what are you doing there?

 

[Gideon]

This does not make entire sense to me.
Freedom is being able to choose our actions, not our consequences!

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

Lets be honest here I'm cutting the crap and long explanations but how is democracy freedom. Since this is mainly American i will use the American format. Your total input into democracy is once every 4 years you get two candidates to choice from.

Now ask yourself this question are john Kerry and George bush the two most capable and suitable choices to be able to be in charge of America than anyone else?

also

should everyone be able to vote when a large percentage of people who, do vote or can vote have no real grasp of what the party they vote for policy's are?.

I pledge alegiance to the advertisement of the united corporations of america. And to the profit, for which it stands one mind-set, under money, invincable with finance and credit for all. (you have to pay me royalties if you want to use it)

 

[MiamiFlorida]

Oh, I went Janurary.

I do hope they resolve their issues, I'd hate to get bad E-mails from friends there.. We just built a church there recently.



That's why I'm a Christian! Up-grading the life of fellow humans, instead of taking them down.

If I may ask so, what are you doing there?

Visiting my brother in law. I've been going to Venezuela and most of Latin America since the 70's.

 

[epr64]

I too have been in Venezuela....many times.

-Hugo Chavez was elected by popular vote the first time around. There's no arguing that. He cheated on the referendum the second time.

Any proof? Or do you only require proofs when the left says that Bush cheated elections?

-Let's forget that as a military officer, Castro's Mini-Me tried to overthrow the legitimate government of Carlos Andres Perez.

And he spent time in jail for that. AFTER that, he was elected, totally legally.

-He has been unable to bridge the huge gap between rich and poor. He has taken over the media (no more free press or television). He's slowly, but surely eliminating private enterprise. He arrests government, court, police and military officials who resist his total takeover on trumped-up charges. His henchmen fire at will against peaceful demonstrators.

He DID bridge the gap, although NOT by giving away money. He made sure people who never saw a doc before can now have free healthcare, he made sure cooperatives are created, through which people can work and get the product of their work, etc..
FYI, there is nearly no free media in Venezuela, because they are nearly ALL in the hands of the opposition. There's a state television, and some communautary radios. Just look at the way the Venezuelian TV played a role in the attempted coup by Pedro the Brief in 2002. Oh, and BTW, the ONLY media outlet ever shut down from Chavez's elections untill nnow WAS by Pedro the Brief, during the 2 day missed coup.
Could you please link me to a page on Amnesty where they state that Chavez arrested anyone on trumped-up charges?
As far as firing on demonstrators, for every link you can feed me saying it was from Chavez's supporters, I can feed you 2 that say the opposite.

- He's arming Venezuela to the teeth, supporting the FARC guerrilla in Colombia (which seek to overthrow a democracy) and letting them use the Venezuelan border to evade Colombian government forces, resupply and recuperate.

That's YOUR opinion, and that of Rumsfeld, of course. Proofs?

-In Peru, Chavez bankrolled the rogue army officer who tried to incite December's rebellion against elected President Alejandro Toledo. In Bolivia, he supported revolutionary Evo Morales.

-Venezuela is stirring the security pot, sowing fear among its neighbors. From Russia, Chavez is buying 50 advanced MiG-29 fighters, 40 helicopter gunships and 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles. He's also bought arms from Spain and Brazil.
Chavez also plans to increase the size of the army reserve as "an honorable answer to President Bush's intention of being the master of the world."


-Chavez's main motivation now is to do everything he possibly can to negatively affect the United States . . . trying to bring together all the enemies of the United States. He idolizes Castro, is chummy with Libya's Khadafi, calls muslim terrorists "freedom fighters", supported Saddam Hussein.

-Now he says he's going to spread his revolution throughout Latin America.

Pure and utterly BS. Or maybe, once again, you can prove anything here? You REALLY should try to find CREDIBLE information sources.

You may think there's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez, but I tell you that sooner or later we're going to have to deal with him.

Or he'll deal with you. I wonder what a total stop of Venezuela oil exportations to the US would be like?

What you forgot:

- He changed the constitution so that ANYONE elected can be fired at mid-mandate.

- He made deals allowing people to get free healthcare, education.

- He helped them put in place cooperatives.

- He gave people starving on the side of uncultivated fields the fields they need to grow their own food.

- He took back factories closed for years, in order for people to be able to use the means of production to allow them to earn a living.

All in all, not so bad for a "strong-arm dictator", don't you think. Certainly when, opposed to him, you have such nice people that dare to say "we will need 2 or 3 years of dictature after we get rid of Chavez to bring things back in place".

THE reason the BA hates Chavez is that he SHOWS the world that a socialist regime DOES work. And that's something the so-called "elites" (or Bush's base) are not ready to admit.

Y

 

[Comrade Brian]

- He's arming Venezuela to the teeth, supporting the FARC guerrilla in Colombia (which seek to overthrow a democracy) and letting them use the Venezuelan border to evade Colombian government forces, resupply and recuperate.

-Now he says he's going to spread his revolution throughout Latin America.

The US is armed to the teeth. And they don't have nukes.

Colombia is a US-dominated republic, and corporations in the US control our country.

The early US tried to start revolutions in L. America in the 1800's.

Nice post epr64.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

I think freedom is turning into an illusion, because after the Telecommunications Act of 1996 the US mainstream media has fallen into the hands of a few multinational corporations. We've seen all significant media giants dwindle from 50 down to less than 10, in just 10 short years. Investigative Journalism has been marginalized, and the publics perception of politics is as narrow as the box in their living room. They media now promotes a status-quo, corporate friendly, agenda. Anyone can get into the whitehouse based on how the mainstream media portrays the candidate, because the media controls the access to people sitting in the bar, cafe, airport, home, etc.

Now as we all know, the "liberal media bias" card, is a myth invented by the right as a cop out to try and avoid substantive argument. While, "sour grapes" is their other favorite card when they arrogantly proclaim their opponent is the looser. Naysayers do not buy this, but instead step up the argument when cop outs are presented. And never stop persuing the truth!

 

[kal-el]

France claims so boldly that they are the country of "freedom", but in fact, it is the USA. It is true you are not persecuted for being a minority in France, it's okay, so long as you don't make a scene. There is currently over 5 million Muslims in France, as much as they don't like it, they would'nt dare outlaw Muslim practices as it would cause too big of a noise.

 

[SHodges]

We give people a small amount of political and economic freedom in exchange for their continued safety and physical wellbeing. In practical, historical terms, that's about as good as it gets. I wouldn't have it any other way, just on a much larger, global scale.

 

[jakurus]

We give people a small amount of political and economic freedom in exchange for their continued safety and physical wellbeing. In practical, historical terms, that's about as good as it gets. I wouldn't have it any other way, just on a much larger, global scale.

Who gives us this? The all-powerful? Just asking...

I don't see as much of a tradeoff between security and freedome these days. The cost of war seems to be pretty in-line with the reluctance of any country to think about using its military on most states.

 

[SHodges]

The people in power, obviously.

 

[rees]

Lets be honest here I'm cutting the crap and long explanations but how is democracy freedom. Since this is mainly American i will use the American format. Your total input into democracy is once every 4 years you get two candidates to choice from.

Now ask yourself this question are john Kerry and George bush the two most capable and suitable choices to be able to be in charge of America than anyone else?

also

should everyone be able to vote when a large percentage of people who, do vote or can vote have no real grasp of what the party they vote for policy's are?.

Mikhail, ask yourself this, what makes a good leader?

lets say in general a good leader means doing good things to help progress and better the lives of the poeple you are leading?

Who can say anyone would be capable or suitable? but the reason why we all vote, is an ideal of freedom, more then knowing if the person is a good leader or not, simply because there is no way to truly tell if any person makes a good leader or not, simply because there will always be poeple who wont agree with some of the things a leader decides on..etc. basically you cannot satisfy everyone as a leader with the choices you make as the leader.

But atleast in the U.S , it won't always be the same leader, which is a good thing...atleast in the U.S there is no oppression... atleast in the U.S you don't have your own sister punished and raped for something You yourself have done...atleast the U.S do NOT kill someone because they have a different religion then you...

Even if the president was chosen by only 300 poeple, instead of everyone in the U.S... it would still not make any difference of determining the quality of the leader... like i said, it is an ideal, because it is inherent when isolated in a small planet like this, we need a Leader...we need something or someone to look up to , to ensure the safety of our fragile lives..

there is no perfect system to choose a leader...we just have to hope that the leader at the 'least' cares for his country, and the poeple that he is leading.

Even if its an educated or uneducated person voting, that still will not determine the quality of a leader. A good leader will be shown through his actions and at the least accomplish 'something' for the good of the poeple he is leading hopefully...


You just have to realize, America is a great country, no matter how much you criticize democracy, Democracy just works because it is Better then most governments out there, especially better then a communist government who are run by adults with the ethical mentality of a 13 year old. (ie: chinese government imposed a 3 hour limit on a game called world of warcraft...this law is so stupid it is equivalent to fining someone 10,000 bucks for drinking more then one cup of alcohol a Month.)...it just comes to show how the communist government is run by faithless vulnurable kids who thinks a mere game will somehow destroy their society...its laughable...if anything were to destroy human progress, will be the real problems such as pollution, religious wars, oppression..etc....

How is democracy freedom?

Just think of it this way, the U.S has Better freedom then most other countries.

You see, here in the U.S..you have the freedom to be lazy or to succeed , make your own path.

The freedom of religion..

living in the U.S, i do not feel oppressed.... no, this feeling is not an illusion

well im not sure if i made much sense at all..i didn't exactly proofread and refined what i've said....maybe i might have said things that i might disagree with later on and regret posting it ..ha...or not...or yes...maybe so..maybe not..most likely not......or..ah Forget it....

the only TRUE freedom would be is if everyone had their own spaceships....then overpopulation and limited space wouldn't be a problem lol... imagine the wonderful dream of being 30k light years away from any jerks...and doing whatever the hell you want to ..imagine this, The most perfect government would be = NO Government at all!

 

[epr64]

France claims so boldly that they are the country of "freedom", but in fact, it is the USA. It is true you are not persecuted for being a minority in France, it's okay, so long as you don't make a scene. There is currently over 5 million Muslims in France, as much as they don't like it, they would'nt dare outlaw Muslim practices as it would cause too big of a noise.

Yup. There's a REAL problem in France.
THE problems in France are called Chirac and Sarkosy. Even Bush can't cope with them. They're so extreme-right that bush would look like a liberal (eventhough liberal has quite a different meaning in french :doh )

The French muslims ARE prosecuted. By Sarkosy, the "ministre de l'intérieur" (equivalent of Gonzales, or something like that). They are deported, put in jail, etc..

The only thing I see is that Sarkosy WANTS some kind of french 911 to become president..

Maybe he will succeed. I hope not, but he does everything he can to make it happen.

Y

 

[jakurus]

True that.

In France, didn't they ban Muslim women from wearing traditional headresses?

That is soooo much more restrictive than most politicians in the United States would ever allow.

 

[epr64]

True that.

In France, didn't they ban Muslim women from wearing traditional headresses?

That is soooo much more restrictive than most politicians in the United States would ever allow.

Yes, but not only in France. Belgium has also such a law (well, not really a law, more of a regulation).

The veil is forbidden at school (in fact, all ostentatious religious signs are forbidden), on the picture on the ID card, and that's most of it.

School is mostly public in France. And there is a strict separation of church and state. That's the reason behind the ban. But there's no ban in the streets, etc..

Now, Sarkosy targets specifically muslims because he knows he can surf on that to get back the Front National votes (extreme-right, negationist party). He also tries to get the votes of the common right through the most indecent poujadism dance I ever saw. He's just plain racist. He understood something from Bush: create ennemies to get elected.

Sad for such a country. But he's not yet elected. 2007 is still far, and a lot can happen in the meantime.

Y