• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The llusion of freedom

mikhail

blond bombshell
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
4,729
Reaction score
763
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Lets be honest here I'm cutting the crap and long explanations but how is democracy freedom. Since this is mainly American i will use the American format. Your total input into democracy is once every 4 years you get two candidates to choice from.

Now ask yourself this question are john Kerry and George bush the two most capable and suitable choices to be able to be in charge of America than anyone else?

also

should everyone be able to vote when a large percentage of people who, do vote or can vote have no real grasp of what the party they vote for policy's are?.
 

jakurus

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We get to vote on Reps every 2 years and our President can't call for an election when the time is favorable.
 

mikhail

blond bombshell
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
4,729
Reaction score
763
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
^^^

well so what
 

Simon W. Moon

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
22,807
Reaction score
8,096
Location
Fayettenam
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
How are you defining the word 'freedom'?
 

mikhail

blond bombshell
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
4,729
Reaction score
763
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
^^^^
well democracy is probably more accurate
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
mikhail said:
^^^^
well democracy is probably more accurate
How do you define your country when its neither "United" nor a "Kingdom"?
 

jakurus

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This guy is clueless. He didn't know we elected Representatives every 2 years.

I say let him read much more about the American political system before he comes back.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
jakurus said:
This guy is clueless. He didn't know we elected Representatives every 2 years.

I say let him read much more about the American political system before he comes back.
Sadly, a lot of people in the world are clueless about what freedom is. Even here in America. Too bad, 'cause freedom is a wonderful thing...
 

mikhail

blond bombshell
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
4,729
Reaction score
763
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
jakurus said:
This guy is clueless. He didn't know we elected Representatives every 2 years.

I say let him read much more about the American political system before he comes back.

so what does that effect, I will be watching you got a russian on ya back.
 

Surenderer

Active member
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
469
Reaction score
0
Imudman said:
Sadly, a lot of people in the world are clueless about what freedom is. Even here in America. Too bad, 'cause freedom is a wonderful thing...



Well sadly alot of people dont know what freedom is because they dont have it....even in America....Ask a Gay what it is like to not be able to get married...or be open about their sexuality in the military....Ask a Black why in the year 2005 does America still have Affirmative Action....or why Alabama, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico, Virginia and Wyoming permanently prohibit voting rights for felons.(According to Human Rights Watch and The Sentencing Project, nearly 3.9 million people are prohibited from voting, a majority of whom are former convicts who completed their sentences.)...Freedom IS a wonderful thing....but everybody aint got it



peace
 

Connecticutter

Active member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
432
Reaction score
0
Location
New Haven, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Surenderer said:
Well sadly alot of people dont know what freedom is because they dont have it....even in America....Ask a Gay what it is like to not be able to get married...or be open about their sexuality in the military....Ask a Black why in the year 2005 does America still have Affirmative Action....or why Alabama, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico, Virginia and Wyoming permanently prohibit voting rights for felons.(According to Human Rights Watch and The Sentencing Project, nearly 3.9 million people are prohibited from voting, a majority of whom are former convicts who completed their sentences.)...Freedom IS a wonderful thing....but everybody aint got it
Hmm - agree that we have lost some freedoms, and we need to be concerned, but I don't know if I'm liking you're examples.

On gay rights, that an emerging issue that will eventually get resolved, just like slavery and women's voting rights, etc. In other words, gays aren't losing freedoms, we are just becoming more aware of the freedoms they don't have and it will (in time) be corrected. I think the situation for gays is getting better and better.

I don't know much about the felon issue, but that doesn't sound very alarming to me. And what is that - 2% of the population?

What are you trying to say about affirmative action? Do you think it hurts freedom or that it is neccesary?
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Surenderer said:
Well sadly alot of people dont know what freedom is because they dont have it....even in America....Ask a Gay what it is like to not be able to get married...or be open about their sexuality in the military....Ask a Black why in the year 2005 does America still have Affirmative Action....or why Alabama, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico, Virginia and Wyoming permanently prohibit voting rights for felons.(According to Human Rights Watch and The Sentencing Project, nearly 3.9 million people are prohibited from voting, a majority of whom are former convicts who completed their sentences.)...Freedom IS a wonderful thing....but everybody aint got it



peace
Freedom isn't a license to be licentious. Homosexuals enjoy the same marriage rights as everyone else. Also, are you saying you consider the right to vote a human right? I won't say you're clueless about what freedom is, but you're behind the curve...
 

Nemo

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
101
Reaction score
5
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Freedom and equality are ideals; but, absent a perfect world, no one can live in society and be entirely free or completely equal. For every freedom there is a corresponding obligation to others, and equality is limited to the extent that such obligations are mutual, and others do not demand rights without responsibility for their exercise. In this, the promise of America is not freedom and equality, but rather liberty and equal opportunity and justice under law. But such promise cannot be kept when government instituted by men favors the few in derogation of the many, or serves the special interests at the expense of the public interest, and when the rich and powerful can have more justice than the poor and oppressed.

We Americans are a nation of laws and not men. But the law can be both used and abused by men; and so it is the duty and responsibility of every citizen to oversee those who make and enforce the laws and administer justice lest our democratic institutions be turned into a tyranny over us.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Nemo said:
Freedom and equality are ideals; but, absent a perfect world, no one can live in society and be entirely free or completely equal. For every freedom there is a corresponding obligation to others, and equality is limited to the extent that such obligations are mutual, and others do not demand rights without responsibility for their exercise. In this, the promise of America is not freedom and equality, but rather liberty and equal opportunity and justice under law. But such promise cannot be kept when government instituted by men favors the few in derogation of the many, or serves the special interests at the expense of the public interest, and when the rich and powerful can have more justice than the poor and oppressed.

We Americans are a nation of laws and not men. But the law can be both used and abused by men; and so it is the duty and responsibility of every citizen to oversee those who make and enforce the laws and administer justice lest our democratic institutions be turned into a tyranny over us.
You're right Nemo. Except that now the Supreme Oligarchy of Nine have taken over. And did you just say "lest"...? :2razz:
 

Uhgreen

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Most democracies exercise a huge right, thats property rights. In a communist country, you don't have that right, but in america you do. Does the government tax you on this property? Yes. Does that limit your freedom? In a way.

Also our elections are free and open, which means, we have freedom of speech and assembly.

Do we have total freedom? No. Are we a free country? Yes.

But, is it wrong to assume that a democrocy equals freedom? Yes. Did people vote Hugo Chavez into power in Venezuela? Yes. Are they free? Not by our standards.

It's best not to mix democracy with freedom. Besides, the United States is a republic, not a full democracy.
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mikhail said:
Lets be honest here I'm cutting the crap and long explanations but how is democracy freedom. Since this is mainly American i will use the American format. Your total input into democracy is once every 4 years you get two candidates to choice from.
Talk about utter lack of understand of the American system. There were far more than two candidates to choose from. Some nine major democratic candidates ran for the nomination of that party. In most States, you don't have to be a registered Democrat to participate in their selection. I crossed over to vote for Lieberman for example. The fact is that there are far more than two candidates, there are merely two major candidates in the general election, which in reality is not all that different than most countries that are democracies.
 

Plain old me

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
228
Reaction score
1
Location
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I have to say Mikhail, as much as I hate to admit it, the US has got democracy and freedom down much better then we do.
 

nkgupta80

DP Veteran
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,720
Reaction score
59
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Yep we were the first, so u'd expect us to be the best.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

I'm the Leon Russell guy.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
36,149
Reaction score
19,590
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

"Americans like to talk about (or be told about) Democracy but, when put to
the test, usually find it to be an 'inconvenience.' We have opted instead
for an authoritarian system disguised as a Democracy. We pay through
the nose for an enormous joke-of-a-government, let it push us around, and
then wonder how all those assholes got in there."

---Frank Zappa
 

Checkerboard Strangler

I'm the Leon Russell guy.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
36,149
Reaction score
19,590
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Some Scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is
so plentiful, is the basic building block of the
universe.
I dispute that.
I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen,
and that stupidity is the basic
building block of the universe.
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
nkgupta80 said:
Yep we were the first, so u'd expect us to be the best.
Well you know except for Greece...
 

jakurus

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Checkerboard Strangler said:
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

"Americans like to talk about (or be told about) Democracy but, when put to
the test, usually find it to be an 'inconvenience.' We have opted instead
for an authoritarian system disguised as a Democracy. We pay through
the nose for an enormous joke-of-a-government, let it push us around, and
then wonder how all those assholes got in there."

---Frank Zappa
And Frank Zappa is freaking nuts. Not to mention he regurgitates that crap pretty poorly.

What's your point?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
jakurus said:
And Frank Zappa is freaking nuts. Not to mention he regurgitates that crap pretty poorly.

What's your point?
[FRANK ZAPPA gavel]
:smash:

There will be NO negative comments toward Frank Zappa. Doesn't matter if what he said is right or wrong. After the Beatles, there is Frank Zappa, and any insults of him will not be tolerated.

[/FRANK ZAPPA gavel]:
 

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Did people vote Hugo Chavez into power in Venezuela? Yes. Are they free? Not by our standards.
There's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez! I'm still wondering why America went to such lengths to get Hugo out of power, just because he's friends with a dictator doesn't mean he's a bad leader. Believe it or not, by my standards, they are free. When I was in Venezuela's captial of Caracus, you can get an illusion that you're in a very run-down part of Detroit. Is poverty a HUGE issue in Venezuela? Yes. Does that mean they're not free? No, they're as free as you and I.
 
Top Bottom