The Holocaust Was The Jews Fault

[George_Washington]

How can I forget the money part? Robin and I are sworn enemies. We go back. You see, he doesn't like that he can't bash America without my standing firm in front of him. I can and have typed on the mistakes made by America, but I don't allow that to overshadow the overwhelming light America has cast in many dark places and times. It would be different if he spoke objectively as he claims, but his posts are clearly defined as otherwise.

Yes us American Christians need to fight against this kind of ignorance.

 

[MSgt]

Yes us American Christians need to fight against this kind of ignorance.

Remember my general views on the "Global Left" and "Old Europe?" Now apply that to 'Robin' and you might come to realize what I was saying.

 

[George_Washington]

Remember my general views on the "Global Left" and "Old Europe?" Now apply that to 'Robin' and you might come to realize what I was saying.

lol Well, in a sense I do, yes. But it's just not everybody over in Europe is like Robin though.

 

[MSgt]

lol Well, in a sense I do, yes. But it's just not everybody over in Europe is like Robin though.

Alright, but we don't deal with everybody. We deal with their governments and their throw-back traditional sentiments towards aggressions.

 

[Tashah]

But it's just not everybody over in Europe is like Robin though.

And thankfully, not everyone in America is like Mr. Gandhi.

 

[Tashah]

Would these be the same prophets that think appeasing a determined enemy away will work, because it worked for American Civil Rights?

I daresay... the exact same prophets.

 

[Tashah]

One size doesn't fit all Tashah and the sooner we come to understand that in this world the sooner we can find better solutions to the problems we're confronted with.

I agree completely and I am determined to combat this mindset... day for day, post for post, and word for word.

 

[cnredd]

I daresay... the exact same prophets.

Don't forget that these are the same ones who believe a war that doesn't end by the time your pizza arrives isn't worth doing...

 

[MSgt]

I agree completely and I am determined to combat this mindset... day for day, post for post, and word for word.

That's a noble agenda.

I simply wish to vent, waste time, and get ideas.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I agree completely and I am determined to combat this mindset... day for day, post for post, and word for word.

Tasha, don't take this the wrong way. The Jews are not the only people to endure a genocide. As a matter of fact, the Muslims that you have so much hate for were sent away to death camps in Bosnia. They looked like survivors of Auswitch (however you spell it). They were walking, living, skeletons on the verge of dying and were executed by ruthless guards whenever the guards felt like it. Not only that, but their were attempts to burn all Islamic literature and to erase any evidence that Islamic civilization or a Muslim people ever existed in Bosnia. They were the victims. These Muslims provoked none of this. Mosques blown up, Muslim women raped, people's throats slit. Kids slaughtered. I know, I helped to remove their bodies from mass graves. The Jews are not the only victims. The holocaust was not the only genocide in history. So don't come back at me talking about anti-semitism or the holocaust. I think their are Jewish people who use their holocaust history to demonize Muslims in the Middle East and to justify Israeli methods that are completely unjustified. The Muslims who used to live what is now your country, were forced off their land and into poverty. It should be no surprise that Israel now faces extremists and terrorists.

 

[MSgt]

Tasha, don't take this the wrong way. The Jews are not the only people to endure a genocide. As a matter of fact, the Muslims that you have so much hate for were sent away to death camps in Bosnia. They looked like survivors of Auswitch (however you spell it). They were walking, living, skeletons on the verge of dying and were executed by ruthless guards whenever the guards felt like it. Not only that, but their were attempts to burn all Islamic literature and to erase any evidence that Islamic civilization or a Muslim people ever existed in Bosnia. They were the victims. These Muslims provoked none of this. Mosques blown up, Muslim women raped, people's throats slit. Kids slaughtered. I know, I helped to remove their bodies from mass graves. The Jews are not the only victims. The holocaust was not the only genocide in history. So don't come back at me talking about anti-semitism or the holocaust. I think their are Jewish people who use their holocaust history to demonize Muslims in the Middle East and to justify Israeli methods that are completely unjustified. The Muslims who used to live what is now your country, were forced off their land and into poverty. It should be no surprise that Israel now faces extremists and terrorists.

But this discussion is about Israel and the Jews.....not Bosnia. Nor is it about Israeli "methods." Nor is it about hating Muslims. It is about fighting for survival in a region full of hate and misdirected blame, though the topic speaks of the holocaust. When speaking about Muslims in Bosnia, one should stop to recognize that the Middle East didn't even care enough to whisper about it. Regarding Palestinians, the Arabs and Persians do very little to aid their society, except for the cheers for violence. These are a different kind of people. One must also recognize that you are referring to a Muslim attrocity in one country where anti-semitism has a long history of attrocities attributed to it throughout Europe and to this very day.

Muslims and their religion are not victims, though they are trying desperately to portray that perception.

 

[Tashah]

Tasha, don't take this the wrong way. The Jews are not the only people to endure a genocide. As a matter of fact, the Muslims that you have so much hate for were sent away to death camps in Bosnia.

I hate no one Timmy. This may come as a bit of a shock to you, but I tutor English to Palestinian children in the West Bank as time permits.

 

[Tashah]

But this discussion is about Israel and the Jews.....not Bosnia.

Actually, this thread is about the views and revisionism of Mr. Gandhi per the Holocaust.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I hate no one Timmy. This may come as a bit of a shock to you, but I tutor English to Palestinian children in the West Bank as time permits.

It seems you can be out of line sometimes about some of your comments towards Muslims. Their are alot of misconceptions about Islamic civilization and they have sufferred persecution as well. Islamic civilization is not bad. I have alot of respect for Islamic civilization. They are not bad people generally speaking. If you have a people without a homeland and are in poverty, yes, generally they tend to become very radical and extreme. I am not justifying any of the sucide bombings or how some of these terrorist groups con young Palestinians into doing them. In Bosnia, the nice, tolerant Muslims slowly and gradually began to turn to radicalism when they were being hoarded into death camps and the world knew and ignored. Chechnya is another good example as well where the world gave their silent approval to that genocide, like they did in Bosnia and they like they did to the Jews during World War II. Their silent approval. I understand these terrorist groups can be uncompromising at times but it just seems this cycle of vengence, sucide bombings and Israeli missle strike, both sides demonizing the other, I mean, their has to be a better way, you know?

 

[blastula]

...The Muslims who used to live what is now your country, were forced off their land and into poverty. It should be no surprise that Israel now faces extremists and terrorists.

This is an outrageous statement. There is no justification for terrorism in whatever shape or form against innocent civilians. I'm not Muslim, I'm not Jewish, but it doesn't matter who or what you are, you cannot justify violence against innocent people.

Historically, there are more violence coming from the Islamic radical faction all over the world than from any other religious beliefs. Still, when it comes down to humanity, those Muslims people are still fellow human beings. And fellow human beings shouldn't be treating another fellow human beings with such evil.

 

[TimmyBoy]

This is an outrageous statement. There is no justification for terrorism in whatever shape or form against innocent civilians. I'm not Muslim, I'm not Jewish, but it doesn't matter who or what you are, you cannot justify violence against innocent people.

Historically, there are more violence coming from the Islamic radical faction all over the world than from any other religious beliefs. Still, when it comes down to humanity, those Muslims people are still fellow human beings. And fellow human beings shouldn't be treating another fellow human beings with such evil.

I agree, that their is no justification for terrorism against civilians, but where is the condemention for state terrorism?

 

[MSgt]

Actually, this thread is about the views and revisionism of Mr. Gandhi per the Holocaust.

Oh yeah, that's right.

 

[MSgt]

I agree, that their is no justification for terrorism against civilians, but where is the condemention for state terrorism?

Where the **** have you been? Israel is always condemned for the accidental deaths involved with legitimate military targets. You will not here such a wave of repulsion when Palestinians purposefully attack Israeli civillians. The sentiment is always...."It's their culture" or "What would you do if you were forced off of your land."

Typical double standard we've all heard way too often.

 

[Crispy]

I agree completely and I am determined to combat this mindset... day for day, post for post, and word for word.

Amen, that's where my posts, few as they may be, are directed

 

[robin]

Well, I personally think that our Catholic beliefs are more correct than what a lot of Protestant Churches hold to be true.
We believe that anybody can get to Heaven, so long as they've led a good life. So to answer your question: No, God does not have a bias towards any one denomination, at least not in Catholic teachings. It used to be that we believed salvation only came through the Church but that has been revised.

34 ) What about mother Teresa of Calcutta.. will she get a room with a real good view beside JC compared to plebs like me... people like me that are not as good as MT of C but still good becuase we actually care about injustice in the world but at the same time are not unquestioning enough to be religious ?

I don't know if Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus or not. But I do believe that Jesus was not the result of natural intercourse.

35) Did God make love to her then ?

36) Why did God wait a hundred thousand years before he bedded a woman, on earth at least ?

37) Why is someone like me, a capitalist but one who cares about extreme republicanism & the bad things America has done, regarded as global left ?

38) Are you like the child that never reaches the stage of asking how santa gets to so many houses in one night ?

39) Ask yourself whether those horrendous stories of CIA dirty tricks & wholly un Christian activities might just be true... http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html
Yet you just regard or dismiss seekers of the truth as 'the global left'.

40) Are you a Christian fighting ignorance, or a Christian doing your best to maintain ignorance ?

41) Ask yourself if my so called 'smart ass' questions might just be equivalent to questioning the plausability of santa claus. They are pertinent & reveal that religion creates more philosophical problems than it solves. Just like the idea of Santa ultimately causes more problems than it solves in trying to explain away where xmas presents come from.
In fact religion doesn't really answer a single question other than one & that's only a claim... the claim to know what made us.

 

[Gardener]

I agree, that their is no justification for terrorism against civilians, but where is the condemention for state terrorism?

"State terrorism". It's a nice Nice buzzphrase and oft repeated by those for whom such language acts like rhetorical bread crumbs, easiliy identified back to the originating source. What does it mean, though, and how is it offered if not to justify terrorism? After all, the phrase is used ad nauseum by those who wish to influence people into thinking there was some sort of moral equivalency between protective actions undertaken by Israeland the intentional actions involving selecting innocent Jewish men, women and children in order to play the game of "Let's how far we can scatter their body bits through explosive means". Yes, killing somebody intentionally must be the same as killing somebody unintentionally, and killing an innocent is the same as killing somebody who has already murdered.

In order for there to be equivalency, you would have to establish that the Israel government somehow targets random Palestinians for the purpose of murdering them. Otherwise, you are simply repeating a rhetorical ruse that has very little use other than to obfuscate the very meaning of the word terrorism.

If it weren't for the fact that Chomsky, Cole, and any of a number of the other cookie cutter authoritarian leftists use this term, would you have thought it up on your own? Do you not make any distinctions in the situations surrounding death to such a degree that accidental death is just the same as premeditated murder?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Very true, the Jews could have refused to pick up the dead on the street. But of course this leads to other Jews being shot until they find some who will clean them up. Was anything accomplished in that? I can't see where.

The object of nonviolent resistance is to be provocative, to provoke the proper response in your other. When a man strikes you, if you strike him back he will only desire to strike you back. If you kill him, his brother will wish to kill you. The only way to beat a man who hates you is to make him love you. When you tell a man 'no' this does not imply that you say it with anger and then spit in his face, you should do so in a way that says, "I am not your slave. I am your brother." And if he is going to kill you he will destroy a piece of himself and his ideals and everything that he believes to be right. The answer is clarity, truth, satyagraha. It is the only way to destroy the corruption of the human spirit.

I can appreciate the fact that you would have liked to have history tell a story of resistance by the Jewish people against the Nazis. However, non-violent resistance would not have worked against the Nazis in my opinion. The Nazis had a goal of exterminating the Jews, and those that resisted would only solidify them in their resolve. The more Jews that would have died for resisting would have led others to just comply. Martyrdom does not work when you are killed after saying "No" once.

I would recommend saying more than "no."

It is true that violent resistance would no doubt solidify hatred, but nonviolent resistance would break its foundation and rip the balance from underneath it.

Also, it is not just a feat that would have been difficult to get the German people to see what was going on. The Nazis had information control which was the single most important issue. Then add in the German people saw Hitler as their savior you have next to an IMPOSSIBLE task, not just difficult. I don't see how anyone could argue with that. Also, suppose the German population found out. It would not have helped. Resistance from the German population would have been dealt with the same way. Remember Hitler had much resistance from countries that were being conquered but still was able to kill over 6 million Jews and 5 million others.

If the German people resisted, the men in the military would have been demoralized almost immediately. Hitler's intial assault on the handicapped, was thwarted by the response of the German people because they were ethnic Germans. The men in the military are ordered to massacre the people they joined the military to protect, I believe they would question their loyalty to Hitler and see how their cause for "ethnic purity" has fallen into a cause to give Hitler unchecked power. They would see that the oath that they swore to God that said that they would never disobey is an oath against God. I'm not saying it would be easy or painless or quick, but nothing worth doing is ever any of those things.

In the end I believe the Jews did the only thing they could do, and that is survive. Hindsight is of course 20/20 and we could sit here all day and critique what they could have done and should have done like a Monday Morning Quarterback. It is not everyday people are rounded up for mass slavery and extermination. In the end they did what they could, and I don't see how anyone could say any different then that.

In the end, they did what they had to do in order to survive, and it worked out for alot of them, and sadly it did not for others. It sadens me that men died and I am certialy glad then men lived, and perhaps it is merely the idealist in me, but ideally no one obeys under a tyrannical regime just as ideally no one ever has to make such a choice and live under a tyrannical regime.

Hindsight is 20/20. You're absolutely right. I wasn't there, I have no idea what I would have done. If that is where this discussion ends, that is certainly fair place for it to do so.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

When people's ideology involves such hatred that they support genocide, my own sympathy goes to the targets of their hatred rather than the haters. I have no sympathy for Nazis, and have great sympathy for their victims and not visa versa. Perhaps at some point you will develop the abiliy to sympathize with the victims of genocidal ideologies rather than faulting them them, and rather than sympathizing with the perpetrators of these ideologies, learn to discern why they are inimical to the other values you purport to uphold. There are huge contradictions in your stances and I think you are capable of working through them.

My sympathy goes to who I feel are experiencing the effects of injustice, and in most all cases that falls to both sides of a conflict, genocide or not.

The first three have some information on the Nazi influence, which was actually quite widespread throughout the Arab world.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/nazis.html

THis site has countless videos showing the way Palestinian media propagandizes hatred
http://www.pmw.org.il/

One particular propaganda technique aimed at the outside world.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/turnspeak.html

A discussion on the rhetorec and language of propaganda
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/linguistics_of_antizionism.html

an article on honor killing
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

An article showing that 70% of Palestinians support the murder of innocents.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm

Thank you very much. Now I know exactly what I'll be reading during economics tomorrow.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Your argument is sound for some poeple. Its not for others.

First, not everyone believes in non-violent resistance as we can evidently see here. I would venture to say that a majority of people "don't" see non-violent resistance as a practical means to oppose a deadly adversary. So not to refute your assertion for some, I can't realistically view this as a movement that could've or would've gained popular support during the Holocaust. I'd also venture to say that "many" victims of the Holocaust "did" protest using non-violent means and died for that protest (not stating fact but making an assumption).

Nonviolence would have been worked within the Jews as well as it works throughout all people with strong religious convictions. Killing is wrong, God has told you so. That is a constant.

My connotation of "nonviolence" is not merely "without violence."

Third, weighing resistance vs compliance, where resistance meant death and compliance meant life (perhaps), its not a thourough investigation to weigh this decision based on a single principle alone. Your principle being more or less "live free or die." Its fair to say that many of the victims viewed this decision this way and died for that view, but its also fair to say many didn't. Many viewed their life, the life of their family and the hope of ultimate intervention by the rest of europe as worth compliance at the time. Its fair to say that fear alone led some to compliance. Its fair to say that mis-understanding the true circumstances at hand led some to compliance.

That's fair.

You have a view of the "basic" tenets of human nature that are universal and certainly these tenets that you cherish are a "part" of the very fabric of our nature, but, just as Platos Forms, like Justice, they are un-definable in terms without applying context to which these concepts can be applied. Human beings may very well be "Good" by nature but how they interpret acting on that good is another matter and its necessarily affected by more than one principle, especially when considering a collective resistance under extreme circumstances.

"A corruption of the moral lense." I completley agree. I do not, however, believe that such a corruption is unable to be clarified.

Your assertion about the Holocaust presumes that all the victims, many of the victims or "enough" of the victims could've summoned the strength to resist, organized, and had an impact, based on a single principle which even when given time and more moderate circumstances, is, at best, unrealistic.

How one can live day to day dreaming and making goals in terms of "realistic vs unrealistic" I will never understand. I could not for all my efforts live day to day with such pessimism. Nonviolence is possibly painful, just as violence is. Nonviolence is possibly fatal, just violence is. The thing that truly sets the too apart is not the physical risks involved, but the moral and spiritual risks involved. It is wrong to kill. Period. Men negotiate with that basic truth in order to benefit themselves in one way or another, possibly in a kill-or-be-killed survival situation, but in the end the truth is truth.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Mr. Gandhi tends to classify history as a trite inconvenience.

That wasn't very nice...

He seems to be totally unaware of the existence and fate of the 'White Rose' in Germany.

Indeed! Absolutely fascinating. I sincerely do not know how to thank you. What nerve they had! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

He is also stone mute on the events and aftermath of July 20, 1944. The outcome of both historicities soundly discredit his 'resistence' arguments.

Let's pretend that Hitler was killed in the explosion... Would National Socialism have withered and died, or would it have found a glorious Martyr?