The End of democracy

[psholtz]

Please tell me how he was a dictator... I am verrry eager to hear this. I dont like him for getting us in the trade agreement.

He forced all Americans to turn in all privately held gold, on pain of imprisonment and massive fines, in 1933. This began the 40+ year reign of tyranny (1933-76) during which it was illegal for private American citizens to own gold.. and the only reason private private American citizens were permitted to start owning gold again (post 1977) was because by then U.S. Fed Notes were safely off the gold standard and onto the petrodollar standard.

There are many other examples of his tyranny that can be cited.. Blatantly attempting to pack the Supreme Court comes to mind as well..

 

[Comrade Brian]

in 1924 when Joseph Stalin came to power in Russia, and kicked both the U.S. and Britain out of Russia,

Stalin seized total control in 1928,when he kicked out Trotsky, and later had him killed. Britain and US,and many other countries invaded Russia in 1917, pulled out in 1920, he should have kicked them out.

And though FDR had some downsides, he did things like Social Security, and stopped capitalism from pretty much collapsing in the US.

 

[psholtz]

Stalin seized total control in 1928,when he kicked out Trotsky, and later had him killed. Britain and US,and many other countries invaded Russia in 1917, pulled out in 1920, he should have kicked them out.

Yes, that's true, Stalin didn't really come *fully* into power until 1928 (my bad).. although he was Secretary General of the Communist Party as early as 1922 (the year Lenin took ill, I believe).

1924 is the year Lenin died..

 

[Comrade Brian]

Yeah if he lived a while longer things maight have gone very diferently...

 

[Youve Got To Be Kidding!]

He forced all Americans to turn in all privately held gold, on pain of imprisonment and massive fines, in 1933. This began the 40+ year reign of tyranny (1933-76) during which it was illegal for private American citizens to own gold.. and the only reason private private American citizens were permitted to start owning gold again (post 1977) was because by then U.S. Fed Notes were safely off the gold standard and onto the petrodollar standard.

There are many other examples of his tyranny that can be cited.. Blatantly attempting to pack the Supreme Court comes to mind as well..

You said clinton was a dictator.

 

[Youve Got To Be Kidding!]

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "This is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."

*]Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to break down any and all walls of privacy. The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistle blower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures - has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities. There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.



If your talking the end of democracy this falls under this topic. Why is it everyone ignores this. Cant get any of you pro bush pro american christians to back this one.

 

[psholtz]

You said clinton was a dictator.

I don't believe that I'm the one who said that.. I believe that Clinton (along w/ FDR, and a host of others) is a traitor, but I don't believe he ruled like a dictator.. The only U.S. president who can really be said to have ruled like a dictator was Lincoln, but those were pretty extraordinary times..

 

[psholtz]

If your talking the end of democracy this falls under this topic. Why is it everyone ignores this. Cant get any of you pro bush pro american christians to back this one.

I wouldn't say this is the "end" of democracy, I would say this is the "end result" of democracy. Democracy *always* collapses into tyranny, no exceptions. The Founders of the United States hated democracy for this reason, and they wisely designed the Constitution so that the U.S. was *not* a democracy (of course, the 17th amendment, and a host of other assaults upon the Constitution, have basically transformed the United States into a democracy).

If you want to be rid of the Patriot Act, restore Constitutional government to the United States and bring back the Republic..

 

[cnredd]

I think saying that Bush didn't win, or moreso doesn't have support is wrong. Both sides were very Machiavellian in their campaign tactics, like I heard of Bushies going around mostly black areas and posting bulletins that the election was on November 4th, and I heard of a program where liberal women would sleep with a conservative for him to sign away his right to vote, both of which I find deplorable, because then it's not about swaying the American people to your side, and make them want your guy, but instead trying to trick the American people into having your guy as president.
Bush probably cheated, but probably so did Kerry.

Overall, I agree with the concept of what you're saying, but keep in mind that a lot of stuff went down at the local levels without the national campaigns knowing...

Is it right to blame the candidate when someone 16 layers down was unscrupulous and did something on his/her own?

 

[Youve Got To Be Kidding!]

Like I said I love how Cnred TOTALY IGNORED THAT SECTION ON THE PATRIOT ACT...... None of these communists have anything to say about that ****.... I believe you are communists so I am not flaming.... You may just not know what it means or perhaps I dont.... Notice how its posted 5 times here and none of these kristian far right party line tugging neocons have anything to say about it.... glad you hate america cause that is what your saying when you give it a free passs..... adn before you freak on my post why not see what I am saying and perhaps then you see how I feel this way seeing how i see things.

 

[cnredd]

Like I said I love how Cnred TOTALY IGNORED THAT SECTION ON THE PATRIOT ACT...... None of these communists have anything to say about that ****.... I believe you are communists so I am not flaming.... You may just not know what it means or perhaps I dont.... Notice how its posted 5 times here and none of these kristian far right party line tugging neocons have anything to say about it.... glad you hate america cause that is what your saying when you give it a free passs..... adn before you freak on my post why not see what I am saying and perhaps then you see how I feel this way seeing how i see things.

First off, you capitalized my name AND spelled it wrong...not a good start..

Second...I didn't ignore anything....Your Patriot Act ramble was biased and opinionated...I assume it was by you, because you did not provide a source for it..

Third...Read my response again...It was only a response to another forum member's comment, which was this...

...it's not about swaying the American people to your side, and make them want your guy, but instead trying to trick the American people into having your guy as president. Bush probably cheated, but probably so did Kerry.

It was separate from any bile & venom you are throwing out....

Fourth...Telling someone you are not flaming doesn't mean that you are not flaming...

And even if that WASN'T flaming, it was still grammatically inept and in poor taste.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I think saying that Bush didn't win, or moreso doesn't have support is wrong. Both sides were very Machiavellian in their campaign tactics, like I heard of Bushies going around mostly black areas and posting bulletins that the election was on November 4th, and I heard of a program where liberal women would sleep with a conservative for him to sign away his right to vote, both of which I find deplorable, because then it's not about swaying the American people to your side, and make them want your guy, but instead trying to trick the American people into having your guy as president.
Bush probably cheated, but probably so did Kerry.

You forgot about volunteers getting payed in crack to get petitions signed. Gotta love those dems lmao.

 

[philip_jp]

Youve Got To Be Kidding!

I have a question where did u get that information about the patriot act and all its provisions you posted because i am pretty sure that alot of that stuff is made up.

And to all the people who are saying we are democracy no we are a constititutional republic if you think we are not show me how we work as a democracy and not as a consititutional republic.