The Duce is back to regime change.

[Tigerace117]

I'm just asking where you're getting all these quotes from. You always come up empty-handed when I ask.

Way to run from the question.

 

[Tigerace117]

Lend-lease to the UK was already happening. Plus, Hitler did pretty well in 1941!

Thank you for demonstrating your inability to comprehend things like naval warfare.

And the Germans were promptly sinking plenty of it. Britain was struggling to hold onto Egypt in 1941. They had no actual way of affecting continental Europe in a significant fashion.

“Naval warfare” doesn’t mean much against all of continental Europe being more or less United. It’s why the Continental System was seen as such a threat by the British, and why the French put such immense effort into trying to impose it.

Thank you for demonstrating your inability to comprehend how utterly destroyed the French and their pals were after their invasion of Russia failed.

 

[Cosmo]

Way to run from the question.

Great, thanks for confirming your argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise!

And the Germans were promptly sinking plenty of it. Britain was struggling to hold onto Egypt in 1941. They had no actual way of affecting continental Europe in a significant fashion.

“Naval warfare” doesn’t mean much against all of continental Europe being more or less United. It’s why the Continental System was seen as such a threat by the British, and why the French put such immense effort into trying to impose it.

Thank you for demonstrating your inability to comprehend how utterly destroyed the French and their pals were after their invasion of Russia failed.

Sorry, buddy, but Germany lost the naval war. That's what enabled them to be invaded on land.

 

[Tigerace117]

Great, thanks for confirming your argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise!


Sorry, buddy, but Germany lost the naval war. That's what enabled them to be invaded on land.

Great, thanks for confirming you are denying that all those Abrams tanks and other fancy western weapons were supposedly “game changers” and “the best in the world”.

Gee, how’d that go at Dieppe again?

The Germans committed the overwhelming majority of their forces to the eastern front, where the Soviets kicked their asses. Without well over sixty percent of their troops tied down in the east, there would have been no invasion in the first place.

 

[Cosmo]

Great, thanks for confirming you are denying that all those Abrams tanks and other fancy western weapons were supposedly “game changers” and “the best in the world”.

...that still does nothing to prove your premise.

Gee, how’d that go at Dieppe again?

The Germans committed the overwhelming majority of their forces to the eastern front,

They committed much military manpower to the eastern front, and a lot of it was expended fighting Western-provided equipment, like thousands of tanks and hundreds of thousands of trucks. Naval and air warfare are different, requiring more industry and brains, and less manpower on the front lines. Sounds like you knowledge of warfare is limited to side with the most soldiers = better.

where the Soviets kicked their asses. Without well over sixty percent of their troops tied down in the east, there would have been no invasion in the first place.

Without Russia and Germany forming an alliance and invading Poland, there might not have even been a World War II at all.

 

[Fledermaus]

Great, thanks for confirming your argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise!

Imagine that.

Sorry, buddy, but Germany lost the naval war. That's what enabled them to be invaded on land.

Surface action for Nazi Germany had some highlights early in the war. It went downhill from there.

Submarine action was outstanding early in the war then tapered off as allied weapons and tactics improved.

And yes. Indeed Germany lost the naval war. Leading to landing and resupply of forces from Africa, to Italy, to France, etc.

 

[Tigerace117]

...that still does nothing to prove your premise.

They committed much military manpower to the eastern front, and a lot of it was expended fighting Western-provided equipment, like thousands of tanks and hundreds of thousands of trucks. Naval and air warfare are different, requiring more industry and brains, and less manpower on the front lines. Sounds like you knowledge of warfare is limited to side with the most soldiers = better.

Without Russia and Germany forming an alliance and invading Poland, there might not have even been a World War II at all.
View attachment 67582912
View attachment 67582913

Blind denial can’t change the facts dude.

Lend lease never provided any more than a tiny fraction of the Soviets’ total tank or aircraft pool, for the simple reason that domestic Soviet models were largely superior. The T-34, for example, was better than anything the Germans had in 1941 and directly led to the hurried creation of the Tiger and Panther.

It was the trucks that the Soviets largely valued, and while a few lend lease models managed to work out a niche for themselves it was in supplement to—not in place of—domestic models.

The Soviet Yak-3 and La-7 were both highly effective fighters, and the Sturmonvik was one of the best ground attack aircraft of the war, so that argument doesn’t hold water either. Try again

Hitler was always going to invade Poland, because the German economy required continued conquests to continue functioning, so that argument likewise flops utterly.

And pretending Americans had more “brains” is throughly debunked by their performance at places like Kasserine Pass.

American companies were still working with the Nazis after America entered the war, dude. There’s a reason the SS and all those German war criminals fled to American protection .

 

[Cosmo]

Blind denial can’t change the facts dude.

Lend lease never provided any more than a tiny fraction of the Soviets’ total tank or aircraft pool, for the simple reason that domestic Soviet models were largely superior. The T-34, for example, was better than anything the Germans had in 1941 and directly led to the hurried creation of the Tiger and Panther.

It was the trucks that the Soviets largely valued, and while a few lend lease models managed to work out a niche for themselves it was in supplement to—not in place of—domestic models.

The Soviet Yak-3 and La-7 were both highly effective fighters, and the Sturmonvik was one of the best ground attack aircraft of the war, so that argument doesn’t hold water either. Try again

Hitler was always going to invade Poland, because the German economy required continued conquests to continue functioning, so that argument likewise flops utterly.

And pretending Americans had more “brains” is throughly debunked by their performance at places like Kasserine Pass.

American companies were still working with the Nazis after America entered the war, dude. There’s a reason the SS and all those German war criminals fled to American protection .

Even Stalin admitted he would have lost without lend-lease.

'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?

Ever since the Cold War, many Soviet and Russian politicians and academics have downplayed the role that U.S.-provided weapons and supplies played in the Red Army's ultimately victorious campaign against Hitler's Germany. But there is substantial evidence that the huge influx of materiel made an...

www.rferl.org

 

[Tigerace117]

Even Stalin admitted he would have lost without lend-lease.

'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?

Ever since the Cold War, many Soviet and Russian politicians and academics have downplayed the role that U.S.-provided weapons and supplies played in the Red Army's ultimately victorious campaign against Hitler's Germany. But there is substantial evidence that the huge influx of materiel made an...

www.rferl.org

Except the historical facts pretty clearly show that not to be the case, as multiple historians have documented.

But I’m not surprised “Radio Free Europe”—the same people who urged the Hungarians further into a doomed uprising by pretending America would go to war for them— wants to pretend otherwise

 

[Cosmo]

Except the historical facts pretty clearly show that not to be the case, as multiple historians have documented.

But I’m not surprised “Radio Free Europe”—the same people who urged the Hungarians further into a doomed uprising by pretending America would go to war for them— wants to pretend otherwise

What historians are those?

 

[Linc]

.


<<<
President Volodymyr Zelensky called on Western allies to push for regime change in Russia at a conference marking 50 years since the signing of the Helsinki Final Act on July 31, warning that Moscow will further attempt to destabilize European allies.

"I believe Russia can be pushed to stop this war. It started it, and it can be made to end it. But if the world doesn’t aim to change the regime in Russia, that means even after the war ends, Moscow will still try to destabilize neighboring countries," Zelensky said during his virtual address.
<<<


If only Zelensky's allies had balls! To be fair some do have balls. Problem is those of Zelensky's allies that sport an impressive pair of iron testicles, unfortunately, also lack the muscle to back that up. Take the Three Baltic Midgets: Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They sport the most impressive pairs of iron testicles in the western world; but in size they amount to just a fraction of Moscow. Germany recently grew a pair with the arrival of Herr Merz; but he is still learning the ropes. Trump has balls but his heart is not in the Duce's fight.

What more can Zelensky do to convince his allies that Putin must be destroyed? Russland delenda est! The Duce should borrow from Cato the Elder and end all his daily addresses to the world with a resounding: Russland delenda est!

Something else may be working for the frustrated Duce. August 8th is S-Day. Sanctions Day. The Day Trump has vowed to release the Kraken.

What happens on S-Day? What will be the size of Trump's Kraken? With Trump its extremely hard to tell. Sen Lindsey Graham expects an Armagedon on those buying Russian oil. The Ukrainian Duce hopes so as well. Most media in Europe, as well as European leaders are psyching up and taunting Trump; already calling him a wimp if on August 8th he does not collapse Russia. On his part Trump blows hot and call; his threats are blood curdling, but he also told a reporter he was not even sure it will work; making one wonder whether he will release a giant Kraken or a midget Kraken. Meanwhile nothing has been heard from Putin. Putin is so silent through the whole thing it is as if it is not about him?

What happens on expiry of ultimatum on August 8th?

Zelensky calls on allies to push for 'regime change' in Russia, warns of further aggression against Europe

"I believe Russia can be pushed to stop this war. It started it, and it can be made to end it. But if the world doesn’t aim to change the regime in Russia, that means even after the war ends, Moscow will still try to destabilize neighboring countries," President Volodymyr Zelensky said on July 31.

kyivindependent.com

At first we thought this thread was trump trying to flip the politics of Brazil and any country trying to to stop the genocide of Smotrich/Netanyahu.

 

[Tigerace117]

What historians are those?

For example:

“David Glantz, the American military historian known for his books on the Eastern front, concludes:

Although Soviet accounts have routinely belittled the significance of Lend-Lease in the sustainment of the Soviet war effort, the overall importance of the assistance cannot be understated. Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make the difference between defeat and victory in 1941–1942; that achievement must be attributed solely to the Soviet people and to the iron nerve of Stalin, Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilevsky, and their subordinates. As the war continued, however, the United States and Great Britain provided many of the implements of war and strategic raw materials necessary for Soviet victory. Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken twelve to eighteen months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers could have waded at France's Atlantic beaches.[49]

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cosmo]

For example:

“David Glantz, the American military historian known for his books on the Eastern front, concludes:

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sounds like you're cherrypicking historians, cherrypicking years (1941-1942), and omitting other contributions like the naval war and air war eating up German industry. Clever Kremlin metodichka you have there!

 

[Rogue Valley]

At first we thought this thread was trump trying to flip the politics of Brazil and any country trying to to stop the genocide of Smotrich/Netanyahu.

The OP likes to borrow nics from WWII.

 

[Tigerace117]

Sounds like you're cherrypicking historians, cherrypicking years (1941-1942), and omitting other contributions like the naval war and air war eating up German industry. Clever Kremlin metodichka you have there!

The Germans had no hope of winning the war at all after 1942. You finding the historical facts inconvenient can’t make them go away.

Gee dude, the “air war” was already a bloodbath for the USAAC and RAFs bombers even without the hundreds of fighters deployed in the East. With them added to the German order of battle, its entirely likely the strategic bombing campaigns simply get called off for losing too many planes for too little gain.

......the naval war didn’t “eat up German industry”. It was the other way around, in fact; the US Navy and Royal Navy frantically struggling to keep shipping afloat while the Germans happily sank everything in sight.

And that isn’t even getting into events like the way German S-Boats utterly massacred US personnel during Exercise Tiger, or your inability to face up to the fact domestic Soviet aircraft proved some of the best of the entire war.

I get it’s very traumatic for American apologists to have to face up to the reality the Soviets kicked the asses of the Nazis the US admires so much, but that can’t change the facts.

 

[Cosmo]

The Germans had no hope of winning the war at all after 1942. You finding the historical facts inconvenient can’t make them go away.

Gee dude, the “air war” was already a bloodbath for the USAAC and RAFs bombers even without the hundreds of fighters deployed in the East. With them added to the German order of battle, its entirely likely the strategic bombing campaigns simply get called off for losing too many planes for too little gain.

......the naval war didn’t “eat up German industry”. It was the other way around, in fact; the US Navy and Royal Navy frantically struggling to keep shipping afloat while the Germans happily sank everything in sight.

And that isn’t even getting into events like the way German S-Boats utterly massacred US personnel during Exercise Tiger, or your inability to face up to the fact domestic Soviet aircraft proved some of the best of the entire war.

I get it’s very traumatic for American apologists to have to face up to the reality the Soviets kicked the asses of the Nazis the US admires so much, but that can’t change the facts.

Stalin must have been a complete retard then to say what he said.

 

[Tigerace117]

Stalin must have been a complete retard then to say what he said.

Stalin’s opinion changed regularly and without regard for the historical facts, in case you hadn’t noticed.

The US, meanwhile, has remained firmly in favor of defending the Nazis and their allies for decades.

 

[Cosmo]

Stalin’s opinion changed regularly and without regard for the historical facts, in case you hadn’t noticed.

"no hope of winning the war at all" - you didn't phrase that as being something subject to a regular opinion change.

The US, meanwhile, has remained firmly in favor of defending the Nazis and their allies for decades.

It was Russia that entered the war on Hitler's side in WWII. Sorta puts to shame any criticism of any other country's relationship with Hitler. Even Italy didn't do that right away!

 

[Tigerace117]

"no hope of winning the war at all" - you didn't phrase that as being something subject to a regular opinion change.

It was Russia that entered the war on Hitler's side in WWII. Sorta puts to shame any criticism of any other country's relationship with Hitler. Even Italy didn't do that right away!

The Germans had one chance to beat the Soviets: with their first punch. When Typhoon washed up at the gates of Moscow, that was it—and by the end of 1942 that only became set in stone.

Except they didn’t, because if they had there never would have been a D-Day landing—or any landings in mainland Europe to begin with.

America spent the next seventy years right up until the present doing everything it could to protect and defend the Nazis and their allies. There’s a reason all those German war criminals fled westwards.

 

[Cosmo]

The Germans had one chance to beat the Soviets: with their first punch. When Typhoon washed up at the gates of Moscow, that was it—and by the end of 1942 that only became set in stone.

By the end of 1942, Germany had already committed enormous amounts of treasure and industry to the naval and air wars over a number of years, and USSR had about a year's worth of aid.

Except they didn’t, because if they had there never would have been a D-Day landing—or any landings in mainland Europe to begin with.

America spent the next seventy years right up until the present doing everything it could to protect and defend the Nazis and their allies. There’s a reason all those German war criminals fled westwards.

Sorry, buddy, but being Hitler's World War II military ally with whom one jointly started World War II is an impossible standard to top.

 

[Tigerace117]

By the end of 1942, Germany had already committed enormous amounts of treasure and industry to the naval and air wars over a number of years, and USSR had about a year's worth of aid.

Sorry, buddy, but being Hitler's World War II military ally with whom one jointly started World War II is an impossible standard to top.

Operation Typhoon occurred significantly earlier than “the end of 1942.”

Britain and France said otherwise, because they knew they had no hope of ever winning the war if they tried to attack the Soviets. And had the USSR actually been the Nazis’ ally there never would have been a D-Day.....at least not one that ended without the US forces being slaughtered, that is.

Sorry dude, I get that the defeat of the Nazis and their fascist pals has been deeply traumatic for America for decades, but no amount of whining can change the fact the Soviets did the overwhelming majority of the work in smashing them.

 

[Cosmo]

Operation Typhoon occurred significantly earlier than “the end of 1942.”

Britain and France said otherwise, because they knew they had no hope of ever winning the war if they tried to attack the Soviets.

Never said anything about a Britain+France match-up vs the USSR. You're changing the subject because discussing Russia's military alliance with Germany is uncomfortable to you. Must go against your metodichka!

And had the USSR actually been the Nazis’ ally there never would have been a D-Day.....at least not one that ended without the US forces being slaughtered, that is.

That makes no sense. Russia being against Germany in 1944 (when D-Day occurred) does not undo their being Germany's ally in 1939. You having trouble with dates?

Sorry dude, I get that the defeat of the Nazis and their fascist pals has been deeply traumatic for America for decades, but no amount of whining can change the fact the Soviets did the overwhelming majority of the work in smashing them.

 

[Juin]

It was Russia that entered the war on Hitler's side in WWII. Sorta puts to shame any criticism of any other country's relationship with Hitler. Even Italy didn't do that right away!

Didnt Poland help itself to a bit of Czechoslovakia in 1938?

 

[Pyrite]

Post #64


How do you know this is what is happening re Russia's successes in its war against Ukraine and Ukrainians?

Do you have access to sources outside of the "Western press" and the msm? If so, what are those sources? How do you determine their credibility?

How can you not? It's obvious and in front of your face.

For example Ukraine says yes we intercepted and destroyed like 95% of incoming aerial weapons overnight yet in the morning there's 30 or more things on the ground destroyed and burning. Math doesn't work and its blatant. Israel tried to cover up the destruction Iran inflicted too. And the Houthis. Problem is you can't block all media and the internet can't be completely censored. Ever heard of maksim krovonos? Another thing the western press doesn't want to talk about. Kinda screws up the official narrative. Too many things don't add up or just are ignored. When you see that and you also see the same phrases repeatedly your being fed BS. The sudden meme and narrative changes are glaringly obvious.

Post #72


So, @pedex, you don't know that Russia is taking more and more territory from Ukraine, you don't know that Russia is inflicting more and more damage on Ukrainian homes, businesses, schools, churches, hospitals, infrastructure etc. You don't know that mainstream media is keeping these details from us. You believe this is happening, but you have no credible sources you can cite as corroboration for your belief.

 

[Cosmo]

Didnt Poland help itself to a bit of Czechoslovakia in 1938?

Lots of countries helped themselves to lots of pieces of lots of other countries in history. I am not aware of any military action in this particular case, having looked into it when someone else read from the same whataboutism chapter of the Kremlin's metodichka regarding this matter in the same sort of discussion, and so I'm not sure how it's relevant to military alliances with Hitler during World War II (especially ones that STARTED the war), which is what we are discussing.