The death penalty is racist

[jamesrage]

Because there are trends across the nation. Those trends point to being black as being a significant factor in whether or not you will be sentenced to die.

So one guy over on side of the coutry gets the death penalty and then another guy on the other side of the country gets the death penalty by completely different judge jury and DA and somehow this is supposed to be racist?

 

[C.J.]

Simply viewing a few stats and trying to determine any racist nature of the DP in this country, is relatively useless.

One thing not factored in, in an any study I have seen is that (Other than the federal DP) of the 38 states which have a DP, the standards to reach to be considered as a capital case is not necessarily the same, and the standards have been changing and evolving since 1976 (Prior to the SCOTUS shutting them down also). For instance, in the late 1970’s and early 80’s the DP in Louisiana was only a consideration for the killing of an official (Policeman, fireman etc) while they were performing their duties. As it worked out, more blacks killed officials ITPOTD, than did whites, and most of the officials killed were white. Some states now have murder (As defined by a particular state) as a capital crime, and others require an underlying felony (Some only certain underlying felonies) along with a murder to be a capital crime.

The states do not have a single system which can be judged and as long as the states laws conform to court decisions, they can otherwise apply it in their own manner. If there is no single system, then the system cannot be judged as a singularity, each states system would need to be analyzed individually.


And no, I am not an advocate of a single system for all states.

Regards,

"C.J."

 

[millsy]

That's the question, how.


Poor white people largely live in rural areas which are predominantly white.

Poor black people largely live in urban AND rural areas which are predominatly
Black.

So why does that make them commit crimes against Whites?

>> Poor black people live in urban areas where they are surrounded by wealth.

Not necessarily, but why does that make them commit so many crimes?




Actually it is fairly close.

It isn't close.

I'm not saying that it makes them commit crime, what I'm saying is this:

1) in the city there is opportunity. When you are poor, living in a big city, there is more of an opportunity to commit crime. Where are you going to be able to steal a car from, the ghetto, or the trailer park? Two blocks from the ghetto there is a lot full of german luxury cars.

2) throughout history the justice system of most countries has been there to protect the rich from the poor. There is a greater opportunity for a crime to go unreported, or to be looked over, if it is committed by a poor person, against a poor person.

Again, this does not take away responsibility. I'm not saying this MAKES anyone do anything. But there are deeper diseases that have to be dealt with if you want to remove the symptoms.

 

[millsy]

Simply viewing a few stats and trying to determine any racist nature of the DP in this country, is relatively useless.

One thing not factored in, in an any study I have seen is that (Other than the federal DP) of the 38 states which have a DP, the standards to reach to be considered as a capital case is not necessarily the same, and the standards have been changing and evolving since 1976 (Prior to the SCOTUS shutting them down also). For instance, in the late 1970’s and early 80’s the DP in Louisiana was only a consideration for the killing of an official (Policeman, fireman etc) while they were performing their duties. As it worked out, more blacks killed officials ITPOTD, than did whites, and most of the officials killed were white. Some states now have murder (As defined by a particular state) as a capital crime, and others require an underlying felony (Some only certain underlying felonies) along with a murder to be a capital crime.

The states do not have a single system which can be judged and as long as the states laws conform to court decisions, they can otherwise apply it in their own manner. If there is no single system, then the system cannot be judged as a singularity, each states system would need to be analyzed individually.


And no, I am not an advocate of a single system for all states.

Regards,

"C.J."

I disagree that you can't look at statistics and recognize trends. All of the things you mentioned could certainly create anomalies in the numbers and mislead someone looking at them. However, when you look at the general trends over 30 years of an entire country and they are all pointing in the same direction, you can't say that it's a few glitches that are skewing the numbers to look like that. They may be making it look worse, but not completely changing the direction of the numbers

 

[jamespol]

I support capital punishment as a just sentence for extreme crimes.

Well as long as it is applied fairly and not only reserved as a punishment for males of African decent.

James

 

[C.J.]

I disagree that you can't look at statistics and recognize trends.

I didn't say otherwise. What I am saying is that one cannot analyze a system which does not exist. We do not have a single Criminal Justice system in this country, much less a single DP system which to anzlyze and judge.

All of the things you mentioned could certainly create anomalies in the numbers and mislead someone looking at them. However, when you look at the general trends over 30 years of an entire country and they are all pointing in the same direction, you can't say that it's a few glitches that are skewing the numbers to look like that. They may be making it look worse, but not completely changing the direction of the numbers

I am not referring to anomalies, but rather differences between the systems of the states. An anomaly is a deviation from the normal, not a difference between systems.

If one attempts to do so, then one is obliged to interpret the data in an unbiased manner. For instance Black males, percentage wise are statistically overrepresented as a percentage of the population. White males on the other hand, are overrepresented as a percentage of the capital crimes committed, and underrepresented as a percentage of the population. Both black and white females are underrepresented as both a percentage of the population, as well as a percentage of the capital crimes committed.

In order to form an opinion concerning any bias in the application of the DP from the information in the preceding paragraph, is it important to utilize population, or the capital crimes committed?

Additionally, if one attempts to bundle the states systems and arrive at a "trend," one would have to include all states systems, including those 12 states and DC, which do not utilize the DP, as well as the 22 states which have the DP, but do not use it. If one doesn't then one is then using stats from only 16 states to set the national trend, with one of the states accounting for 36% of all executions.

The trend since 2000 is this;
2000 85 were executed
2001 66 were executed
2002 71 were executed
2003 65 were executed
2004 59 were executed
2005 60 were executed

The trend is fewer executions per year.

Granted, the number sentenced to die is far higher than those who actually are executed, but when one looks at the stats there, it is overwhelmingly in favor of Black males.

Regards,

"C.J."

 

[Stinger]

It isn't close.

With the small numbers you are reporting it is.

I'm not saying that it makes them commit crime, what I'm saying is this:

1) in the city there is opportunity. When you are poor, living in a big city, there is more of an opportunity to commit crime. Where are you going to be able to steal a car from, the ghetto, or the trailer park? Two blocks from the ghetto there is a lot full of german luxury cars.

So the reason poor whites living in rural areas don't commit as much crime is because they just don't have the opportunity?

2) throughout history the justice system of most countries has been there to protect the rich from the poor.

Then why do we have more police and resouces being spent in poor areas?

There is a greater opportunity for a crime to go unreported, or to be looked over, if it is committed by a poor person, against a poor person.

So you think there are a lot of murders being committed in poor areas that aren't being reported especially white areas?

Sorry I don't see how you are making your point.

Again, this does not take away responsibility. I'm not saying this MAKES anyone do anything. But there are deeper diseases that have to be dealt with if you want to remove the symptoms.

I still haven't seen anything in you post that MAKES someone commit a crime. I see luxuary german cars all the time and I certainly don't drive one. But I have no intention of ever stealing one.

 

[Desmosthenes]

I always wonder what kind of people there are who think things like this are racist. I mean come on, just as it has been said before, how can only "colored" people be sentenced to the death penalty under the jurdisdiction of many different judges, furthermore, the jury. Likewise, there are also people who think that colored people are the devil, which I find very strange. Under no circumstances should there be any racism, and it would be impossible for it to occure anyways, with all the different people running the courts. It's pretty weird what people get into with racism, without thinking it through thoroughly of the possibilities, and furthermore the impossibilities of it even being a reality. I don't know, people like that confuse me quite often.

 

[BodiSatva]

By person A shouting RACIST or SEXIST or whatever at person B...a person A is generally attacking a person B because they disagree with whatever view is being debated. This is a weak tactic. It effectively changes the arguement from one regarding the point to one in which a person B has to defend themself.

I had a person call me a racist because I support immigration laws that close our borders to illegals and deport all illegal aliens. Point is...I would not let that person make idiotic tangent arguements to detract from the point. I am not a racist.

 

[talloulou]

I don't know if I'd say the death penalty is racist but I would definitely agree that someone with money has a much greater shot at not getting the death penalty vs a poor person, even in cases where the crime committed is extremely similar. Someone with money has the ability to hire a much better defense team. So I don't think it has to do with color too much. Look at OJ.....he's free 'cause he had money and bought a dream team to defend himself.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by talloulou
I don't know if I'd say the death penalty is racist but I would definitely agree that someone with money has a much greater shot at not getting the death penalty vs a poor person, even in cases where the crime committed is extremely similar. Someone with money has the ability to hire a much better defense team. So I don't think it has to do with color too much. Look at OJ.....he's free 'cause he had money and bought a dream team to defend himself.

It's worse than that. Not only is it extremely racist, but there has never been one affluent person ever put to death. Not one!

 

[BodiSatva]

affluent people are better...

 

[onetwobomb]

One of the most important factors in whether or not someone gets sentenced to die is the colour of his skin, and the colour of his victims skin.

"The odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black"

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539



How can this type of blatant racism still be allowed to exist?

The death penalty is not racist. Only about 34% of those executed since 1976 were black. 54% were white. Whites are also executed more swiftly on average. Death penalty opponents just look for more excuses to be against the DP.

 

[Desmosthenes]

The death penalty is not racist. Only about 34% of those executed since 1976 were black. 54% were white. Whites are also executed more swiftly on average. Death penalty opponents just look for more excuses to be against the DP.

You've got to be kidding me, it's all a random shot for the percentage rates. Black people commit just as many crimes as white people, white people probably commit more, I can tell you that. But the point I'm justifying myself at, is: It's all a random outcome, different judges, different juries, they're all different people, the judges aren't clones. Sure, you can complain judges or jurys can be racist, but you can't complain that the death penalty is racist, the only way you can do that is by proving that every single judge in the United States has sent an exceptionally high amount of colored people to deathrow, and I tell you, it's impossible. Even if only one judge is not racist, and all the other are, the death penalty still is not racist. You can't complain, there's no way to get past it. There must be thousands of combonations of personalities for the judges, and there's no reason in denying the fact that not all of them are racist, if any.

 

[White]

Race of Death Row Inmates Executed Since 1976

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

 

[Fantasea]

There's no question that it is a huge concern and needs to be dealt with. Of the hip I would say a big reason for that is the location of poor people. Poor white people largely live in rural areas which are predominantly white. Poor black people live in urban areas where they are surrounded by wealth.

Your numbers 85 to 15

let's say they are accurate for murder as well.

Since 1976 209 blacks have been sentenced to death compared to 12 whites for interracial killings.

that's approx. 94 to 6.

That's not even close to proportional.

First, let me say that my preference, instead of capital punishment, is life without parole.

Next, during a trial there are hundreds of factors which may influence the outcome. Any time a person gets in front of a jury, it's a crap shoot.

 

[aquapub]

One of the most important factors in whether or not someone gets sentenced to die is the colour of his skin, and the colour of his victims skin.

"The odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black"

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539



How can this type of blatant racism still be allowed to exist?

This reminds me of the claim that since crack (a black drug) gets punished more severely than coke (a white drug), the system is racist. Crack and crack-related violence kills ten exponentially more people than coke does.

Every time liberals toss one of these slanted statistics out there, there turns out to be a logical explanation for it OTHER than the one that conveniently further programs blacks to be paranoid, Democrat-voting bigots.

Something very curious happens when you include Caribean blacks into this. They are black and have the same history of slavery, yet, they aren't nearly as likely to get the death penalty as native American blacks. Unlike our blacks, they don't break the law nearly as much, they do well in school, and they work.

 

[Fantasea]

I don't know if I'd say the death penalty is racist but I would definitely agree that someone with money has a much greater shot at not getting the death penalty vs a poor person, even in cases where the crime committed is extremely similar. Someone with money has the ability to hire a much better defense team. So I don't think it has to do with color too much. Look at OJ.....he's free 'cause he had money and bought a dream team to defend himself.

No doubt this is true. Some kid who, if he gets caught, will have to depend on a pro bono public defender will be at far greater risk.

So, if he had any sense at all, when he was weighing the odds, he would factor that into the calculation.

 

[Jay R]

So what the topic relates to is actually that trans-race crime is punished more harshly, right? After all, if a white guy goes on a fascist rampage he's gonna get it because that's bad s**t, right? White people won't defend his actions as it would cause conflict with black people. Equally when a black guy does so he gets it too, in both cases it is deemed important to deal harshly to satisfy the victims race that justice is done, and avert conflict and resentment along ethnic lines. Black on black or white on white is less of a concern precisely because it lacks a racial element. This is why racists (any colour) will make a big deal about any trans-race crime to try and provoke that racial reaction.

As for statistics, if the majority of criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of serious criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of convicts are of a certain race, then the majority of executions will be of that race. Big deal, that's basic mathematics.

 

[Fantasea]

As for statistics, if the majority of criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of serious criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of convicts are of a certain race, then the majority of executions will be of that race. Big deal, that's basic mathematics.

The difficulty lies in the fact that while what you say is correct, it is, nevertheless perceived as a cause celebre by the liberals of the world who have labeled it as politically incorrect.

They do nothing to improve the plight of those they champion because to solve the problem would render the liberals no longer necessary. Hence, the problem must remain unsolved so that there is something to complain about.

 

[millsy]

As for statistics, if the majority of criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of serious criminals are of a certain race, and the majority of convicts are of a certain race, then the majority of executions will be of that race. Big deal, that's basic mathematics.

Of course you have a source to back up this claim that most criminals are of a certain race.

 

[millsy]

This reminds me of the claim that since crack (a black drug) gets punished more severely than coke (a white drug), the system is racist. Crack and crack-related violence kills ten exponentially more people than coke does.

Not the system, mandatory minimums

Every time liberals toss one of these slanted statistics out there,

slanted like saying "ten exponentially more" or something like that?

 

[Fantasea]

Of course you have a source to back up this claim that most criminals are of a certain race.

Would you consider the ethnic distribution of the prison population to be an indicator?

 

[millsy]

Would you consider the ethnic distribution of the prison population to be an indicator?

not even close. Not for a second.

 

[Jay R]

Of course you have a source to back up this claim that most criminals are of a certain race.

Never claimed they were, 'if' is the operative word in that piece.

As for your dissatisfaction with prison population ethnic distribution, surely someone who describes themself as 'Very Liberal' doesn't need to be told that socio-economic conditions cause crime to dispropotionately affect certain communities? But it's racist to punish them if thats the case is it?

White guy from a relatively low poverty area murders someone and gets death. Black man from a poor community does it and shouldn't get death because he was more likely to kill due to the poverty he comes from? You're then punishing one more harshly than the other based on location, thats prejudice my friend.:doh

You do the crime, that's your choice as an individual, your failing as a man, and you get the punishment to fit the crime, not to fit your background.

I'm confident that The Reaper doesn't see colours.