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The death penalty is racist

Fantasea

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millsy said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
Would you consider the ethnic distribution of the prison population to be an indicator?
not even close. Not for a second.
Everything indicates something. In your opinion, what does the ethnic distribution of the prison population indicate?
 

anomaly

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Are you guys still listening to this conservative bimbo?

Just checking in on my old forum here.

Although, I will contribute here: one's race has nothing to with anything. One's socioeconomic class, on the other hand, has much to do with it. You won't find a great number of extremely wealthy people in prison, but poor people are there in mass.

Of course, this comes as no surprise. The bourgeoisie favor the bourgeoisie.

If any lefties are wondering "why in the hell am I at this conservative forum?", perhaps revleft would be useful.

http://revleft.com
 

Fantasea

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anomaly said:
Are you guys still listening to this conservative bimbo?

Just checking in on my old forum here.

Although, I will contribute here: one's race has nothing to with anything. One's socioeconomic class, on the other hand, has much to do with it. You won't find a great number of extremely wealthy people in prison, but poor people are there in mass.

Of course, this comes as no surprise. The bourgeoisie favor the bourgeoisie.

If any lefties are wondering "why in the hell am I at this conservative forum?", perhaps revleft would be useful.

http://revleft.com
The newest class system is the socioeducational class system.

You won't find a great number of well educated people in prison either. However, you will find that the socioeducational classes and the socioeconomic classes are pretty well matched at all levels since those who don't get an education tend to remain in the ranks of the "poor people" while those who are better educated climb the economic ladder, don't they?

The lefty libs who control the education system ensure that the underprivileged will never receive the education they deserve. This guarantees that the Dems will always have a permanent underclass to champion, but never really help.
 

millsy

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JamesRichards said:
Never claimed they were, 'if' is the operative word in that piece.

As for your dissatisfaction with prison population ethnic distribution, surely someone who describes themself as 'Very Liberal' doesn't need to be told that socio-economic conditions cause crime to dispropotionately affect certain communities? But it's racist to punish them if thats the case is it?
No it's not racist to punish them.

White guy from a relatively low poverty area murders someone and gets death. Black man from a poor community does it and shouldn't get death because he was more likely to kill due to the poverty he comes from? You're then punishing one more harshly than the other based on location, thats prejudice my friend.:doh
It's only prejudice if I had said that, and if you listen to all the words that you put into my mouth (thanks).

I'm confident that The Reaper doesn't see colours.
Thanks tips.


Originally Posted by Fantasea
Everything indicates something. In your opinion, what does the ethnic distribution of the prison population indicate?

I believe that it is a better indicator of where the crime takes place, and who the crime is committed against.

You guys mentioned socio economic classes, and how it relates to crime; this is what I think the prison population is a commentary of.

Not that there are more poor blacks, because there aren't. But poor Blacks live in the ghetto, and poor whites live in Hicksville.

Laws are there to protect rich people from poor people (and that's not about race, because it's been like that forever) In Hicksville the poor whites are a long way from wealthy America, out of site, out of mind. Kids from the ghetto must be controlled.
 

Jay R

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millsy said:
I believe that it is a better indicator of where the crime takes place, and who the crime is committed against.

You guys mentioned socio economic classes, and how it relates to crime; this is what I think the prison population is a commentary of.

Not that there are more poor blacks, because there aren't. But poor Blacks live in the ghetto, and poor whites live in Hicksville.

Laws are there to protect rich people from poor people (and that's not about race, because it's been like that forever) In Hicksville the poor whites are a long way from wealthy America, out of site, out of mind. Kids from the ghetto must be controlled.
:twocents: Interesting point, but aren't you still saying that 'The death penalty is racist' because poor non-whites come into contact with rich whites? To me that still brings wealth and location into the mix, which is not the question. The death penalty may be given to a greater proportion of non-whites because of wider socio-economic, educational, or geographic factors, but the punishment itself is not aimed exclusively at those groups. Now, on the basis of those other factors you could claim the death penalty is, in practice, racist, but that would bring us back to the point that I so eloquently rammed down your throat;) Should those other factors be taken into account before passing a death sentence? In my opinion, no they shouldn't.
 

millsy

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JamesRichards said:
:twocents: Interesting point, but aren't you still saying that 'The death penalty is racist' because poor non-whites come into contact with rich whites? To me that still brings wealth and location into the mix, which is not the question. The death penalty may be given to a greater proportion of non-whites because of wider socio-economic, educational, or geographic factors, but the punishment itself is not aimed exclusively at those groups. Now, on the basis of those other factors you could claim the death penalty is, in practice, racist, but that would bring us back to the point that I so eloquently rammed down your throat;) Should those other factors be taken into account before passing a death sentence? In my opinion, no they shouldn't.
That explanation I gave was my opinion for why Blacks are over-represented in the prison population. I do not believe it applys to the death penalty.


Look at it from the other side, not the killer, but the victim.


Despite the fact that Whites and Blacks are victims of murders at basically the same rate (white 48%, black 47.8% of total victims), they do not come close to making up the same number of victims in capital cases.


80% of the victims in capital cases were white.
14% Black
2% Hispanic
2% Other

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/racialprejudices.html
 

Jay R

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millsy said:
That explanation I gave was my opinion for why Blacks are over-represented in the prison population. I do not believe it applys to the death penalty.


Look at it from the other side, not the killer, but the victim.


Despite the fact that Whites and Blacks are victims of murders at basically the same rate (white 48%, black 47.8% of total victims), they do not come close to making up the same number of victims in capital cases.


80% of the victims in capital cases were white.
14% Black
2% Hispanic
2% Other

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/racialprejudices.html
Statistics, excellent. These would imply to me that the killers of non-white people are not finding their way to death row, meaning instead of putting all those black and latino gangbangers in jail at taxpayers expense, the justice department should be making sure they get death sentences just as the killers of whites do. The death penalty is thus not racist, but the justice department is more relaxed with non-whites killing each other as long as they aren't killing whites, would you agree?
 

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JamesRichards said:
in jail at taxpayers expense, the justice department should be making sure they get death sentences just as the killers of whites do.

Tax payers expense? We had this out already on another thread.

Yes I agree, that the system is more interested in pursuing the death penalty if the victim is white.
 

Jay R

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millsy said:
Tax payers expense? We had this out already on another thread.
Yeah I read it. Didn't bother posting on that one, doesn't take into account the possibility of me being in charge. Crims cost money, I think that cost should be the bare minimum. Death penalty may be more expensive now, I'd make it a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't even believe in the cost of bullets being spent on them. Can you believe that our prisons in Britain are full, and the governments response is to let them out early?! Ludicrous! New prisons too expensive Gordon Brown says, F*** off Gordon, I could build a perfectly serviceable, temporary prison for a few thousand, running costs only what I feed them and a modest electricity bill. How? I hear the conservatives ask in awe. Nazi style, baby. Nazi, style.

Wooden sheds = $ not much.
Barbed wire = $ not much either.
Convict Labour = Free. F*** your rights, bitch.
Guards = Military are already on the state payroll, put 'em to good use.
Food = I confess, you still have to feed 'em.
Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles, Violent Offenders, all off the street = Priceless.

"What's that, Jones is running for the wire? Hand me that weapon private."
"The cons are rioting? A few thousand rounds of 5.56mm will put a stop to that."

Sorry, rant over. I just can't tolerate anyone playing the cost card, against the justice system. As a socialist I'm really hard on crime, it is after all committed against society, specifically law-abiding, tax-paying society. If you are not tough on crime I'd argue you can have little claim to being a socialist.

(N.B. Nazi style is an emergency measure for cash strapped law enforcers)
 

Jay R

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Aww hell. I'm already unhappy with that last post and no-ones even ripped on it yet.:3oops: Don't bother calling me a fascist, I'm very tolerant on most issues, just not crime. And calling the policy Nazi-style is not in good taste,:3oops: Sorry.
Post your thoughts and I'll try a more balanced retotr later.
 

millsy

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JamesRichards said:
Aww hell. I'm already unhappy with that last post and no-ones even ripped on it yet.:3oops: Don't bother calling me a fascist, I'm very tolerant on most issues, just not crime. And calling the policy Nazi-style is not in good taste,:3oops: Sorry.
Post your thoughts and I'll try a more balanced retotr later.
Why is it that every guy with your stance on crime does a 180 when they are falsely accused of a crime?
 

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I got it.....lets make the death penalty equal!! yay!!:lol:

Lets break it down like this of who gets the death penalty:

25% black
25% white
25% Hispanic
25% Asian

Therefore, if an Asian robs a candybar from a store, and it is time for an Asian to be put to death, because we need to be equal (yay!!), too bad for that kid :cry:
 

Jay R

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millsy said:
Why is it that every guy with your stance on crime does a 180 when they are falsely accused of a crime?
I wouldn't be worried if accused, you have to be found guilty and convicted to face punishment, and I'm a good boy.

Will definitely re-write that post, it's rhetoric and hyperbole, wrote it in five minutes, and I was pissed, schoolboy error.:roll:
 

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ProZak said:
I got it.....lets make the death penalty equal!! yay!!:lol:

Lets break it down like this of who gets the death penalty:

25% black
25% white
25% Hispanic
25% Asian

Therefore, if an Asian robs a candybar from a store, and it is time for an Asian to be put to death, because we need to be equal (yay!!), too bad for that kid :cry:
Come on. Others are bringing up valid points.


wouldn't be worried if accused, you have to be found guilty and convicted to face punishment, and I'm a good boy.

Will definitely re-write that post, it's rhetoric and hyperbole, wrote it in five minutes, and I was pissed, schoolboy error.
So you get a fair trial because you're innocent, but the others, well they're guilty already, so they can have your "cheap" version of the justice system?
 

Jay R

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Here's my re-appraisal of my previous post, and the comments that followed.
JamesRichards said:
Crims cost money, I think that cost should be the bare minimum.
A fact, every breath they take in incarceration costs money in institutional costs. I stand by my opinion that it should be kept to a minimum.
JamesRichards said:
Death penalty may be more expensive now, I'd make it a hell of a lot cheaper.
It is, primarily the cost of incarceration on Death Row as highlighted above, and the associated appeals. Appeals are necessary only if the evidence, old or new warrants re-appraisal. I certainly think that the period of appeal on Death Row should be reduced, you may feel free to disagree. I also feel that once a death sentence is passed the state prosecution should keep the case open to pursue and evaluate such alternative evidence promptly (less time meaning less cost, as above), rather than leaving it to the victims defence to do so. If the state is to take life then it has a duty to view all evidence.
JamesRichards said:
I don't even believe in the cost of bullets being spent on them.
Which I then went on to contradict...
JamesRichards said:
"The cons are rioting? A few thousand rounds of 5.56mm will put a stop to that."
:doh For executions, hanging is best, literally as cheap as old rope. Riots in a prison are already dealt with well, however a riot in a budget prison, would pose a risk of escape due to the limited structural security. Firing on the rioters would be necessary as an emergency response if they were about to break through the wire.
JamesRichards said:
New prisons too expensive Gordon Brown says, F*** off Gordon, I could build a perfectly serviceable, temporary prison for a few thousand, running costs only what I feed them and a modest electricity bill.
Gordon has said it. It is indeed ludicrous, and the following low-budget, temporary alternative is a sound and workable policy, far more preferable to early release on convicts.
JamesRichards said:
Nazi style, baby. Nazi, style.
I rescind this comment, it's in bad taste and frankly, it does my argument no good anyway.
JamesRichards said:
Convict Labour = Free.
True, convict labour is free, and I believe its use should increase. As an environmentalist I'd quite like to see them working landfill sites sorting all the waste to retrieve all the recycleables that are going to waste.
JamesRichards said:
F*** your rights, bitch.
Crime is anti-social and committed against society. Your rights are enschrined in the law of the society, turn to crime and you forfeit the rights of a free citizen because you have chosen not to live within law-abiding society and instead to attack and exploit it. Criminals are inferior citizens, if they should be acknowledged as citizens at all, you cannot consider them equals, it is insulting to those who abide by the law. For example, I'm a man, to call a convicted rapist a man is an insult to me as it places him equally with me. He is a lesser man than I am because of the crime he has willfully chosen to commit. Egotistical I know, but ask anyone if they would consider a rapist better, worse or an equal to themselves. All men may have been created as equals, but they should be judged by the actions they choose to take, and some will prove to be inferior, that's perfectly natural.
JamesRichards said:
Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles, Violent Offenders, all off the street = Priceless.
I doubt even the Very Liberal would contest this, but just in case: People who commit crimes must be punished in order to maintain the rule of law. The alternative to a society governed by law is a individualistic pre-civilized society, where each person kills or is killed in a darwinian nightmare of survival of the fittest. You can kill them, work them, incarcerate them, try to reform them (usually while incarcerated) but you cannot just release them unpunished. A liberal once said; "If prison worked, we'd only have one and it would be empty." but they were stupid. Punishment is not designed to prevent crime, it cannot do so, a well managed society that confronts social problems can limit the likelihood of crime but not prevent it. Punishment is necessary to punish those who transgress, it thus exists as a permanently reactive policy to control behaviour the broader society deems to be 'unnacceptable'.
JamesRichards said:
As a socialist I'm really hard on crime, it is after all committed against society, specifically law-abiding, tax-paying society. If you are not tough on crime I'd argue you can have little claim to being a socialist.
Yes, this is a point I'm happy with and stand by. Socialism is perceived to be left wing politics and traditionally identifies itself as such. I believe that it is a fault, a true socialist (a term I'm coining) should accept ideas from all the political theories because they are all suitable for certain issues. In my case for example, I support a right wing conservative stance on crime, a liberal stance on personal rights and freedoms of citizens (except criminals of course), an environmentalist stance on the environment (common sense really) and so on.
millsy said:
Why is it that every guy with your stance on crime does a 180 when they are falsely accused of a crime?
You specify falsely accused, I've no reason to fear false accusation due to the process of law prior to administration of punishment. When convicted of a crime I accept my punishment, that's why I pay my speed camera fines, because I'm a good citizen who accepts the rule of law.
millsy said:
So you get a fair trial because you're innocent, but the others, well they're guilty already, so they can have your "cheap" version of the justice system?
As I've stated its a cheap prison, a form of incarceration to meet the requirements of a prison population overflow. A 'justice system' has more components than just that, as it should. If 'they'have been for=und guilty then they will accept the punishment handed out by the incumbent political leadership depending upon it's stance on crime, be that common sense, or liberal foolishness.

That's a much better more clarified post. Please continue to post your own thoughts.
 

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millsy said:
One of the most important factors in whether or not someone gets sentenced to die is the colour of his skin, and the colour of his victims skin.

"The odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black"

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539



How can this type of blatant racism still be allowed to exist?
with whites in any position of power

racism is all that will exist under the false pretense of equality
 

Fantasea

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Unfair said:
with whites in any position of power

racism is all that will exist under the false pretense of equality
Whether this is true is debatable. However, there's an easy solution available to minorities who may agree with you.

If they understand that the odds are not in favor of their recieving fair treatment if apprehended for the commission of a crime, they can avoid whatever the punishment may be by simply avoiding the crime.

On the other hand, it seems to me that rather than ease up on minorities, the solution should be to equalize things by raising the level of punishment on "majority" type criminals.
 

Jay R

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Unfair said:
with whites in any position of power

racism is all that will exist under the false pretense of equality
Black supremist? That'd be so much better wouldn't it:roll:
Fantasea said:
If they understand that the odds are not in favor of their recieving fair treatment if apprehended for the commission of a crime, they can avoid whatever the punishment may be by simply avoiding the crime
Agree with you totally.
 

Unfair

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no it isn't debateable, it's fact
name me one country or place with whites in power that is fair and equal to all?
bet you can't do it and why? because whites in power are incapable of being civil.
how can one avoid crime when one is limited in opportunies to succeed while having drugs poured into one's neighborhood? i don't expect some white probably from the suburbs to understand this.
 

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Unfair said:
no it isn't debateable, it's fact
Debate Politics, perhaps your on the wrong site.
Unfair said:
name me one country or place with whites in power that is fair and equal to all?bet you can't do it and why? because whites in power are incapable of being civil.
Whites = Bad, Blacks = Good? My, my, how very tolerant for someone complaining about non-representative government.
Unfair said:
how can one avoid crime when one is limited in opportunies to succeed
Don't lecture me on the social problems of poor communities, I know all about it, I oppose it and advocate more effective confrontation of those problems. Problems which, incidentally, are not limited to any racially defined group. You need to learn that non-Whites do not have a monopoly on poverty.
Unfair said:
while having drugs poured into one's neighborhood
:rofl The white man poisoning the Black man's community? Do you have any idea what'd happen to me if I tried to sell drugs anywhere in London? I'd be killed on site by the local dealers, universally Black gangs, dealing across all communities. Sorry, but you can't blame Whitey for Blacks f****ing each other over to get that green.
Unfair said:
i don't expect some white probably from the suburbs to understand this.
I understand perfectly that your wasting my time with this nonsense and need s stronger argument than this before you come at me with the post-colonial guilt trip bull.
 

Fantasea

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Unfair said:
no it isn't debateable, it's fact
name me one country or place with whites in power that is fair and equal to all?
bet you can't do it and why? because whites in power are incapable of being civil.
how can one avoid crime when one is limited in opportunies to succeed while having drugs poured into one's neighborhood? i don't expect some white probably from the suburbs to understand this.
Typical socialist-lib-dem BS.

Why is it that people from every country on the planet strive to come to the US any which way they can, even if they arrive penniless and with nothing but the clothes on their backs?

Simply because all they want is what the US offers; life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. By and large, they succeed because they make the effort to learn the language, assimilate, work hard, and manage their finances wisely. They see to it that their children take full advantage of the educational opportunities available to all.

Native born Americans who have been branded "minorities" have been sliced, diced, and compartmentalized by the advocates who claim to help them. These fall into three broad groups, the libs, the public education establishment, and the welfare pimps.

Under the guise of providing help, these advocates ensure that these "minorities" become educational and therefore economic basket cases who will remain dependendant upon the government largess. From there on, it's all downhill, except on election day, when they are herded to the polls to vote for their advocates.
 

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Unfair said:
no it isn't debateable, it's fact
name me one country or place with whites in power that is fair and equal to all?
bet you can't do it and why? because whites in power are incapable of being civil.
how can one avoid crime when one is limited in opportunies to succeed while having drugs poured into one's neighborhood? i don't expect some white probably from the suburbs to understand this.
:roll:

Thats a great argument. Why don't you come back from La-La land:2wave::2wave: :2wave:
 
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