The Death of Entry Level

[beerftw]

The idea of "entry level" does not exist anymore.

I decided I had to create this thread because it seems that older people just don't get why young college graduates aren't getting jobs. When I graduated I kept getting asked by older people, "Where would you like to work?" as if I had some choice in the manner. The answer is always, "Wherever I can get work."

When the economy tanked, it resulted in an employer's market. Employers now have a vast pool of unemployed and underemployed experienced workers.

The result is that young people with a college education who are graduating now from college are finding that just about every position requires a minimum of two years of post degree experience.

The old question then is, "how does someone obtain experience if nobody will hire without experience?"

Many have decided to work for free as volunteers and interns in hopes of eventually landing an entry level position in a company. It also gets them experience in their field so that they can eventually get a job, whereas going to work outside their field will eventually damage their ability to eventually get a job in their field.

That has flooded the market with free labor and further wiped out entry level positions since many companies can now find an intern to do for free what they initially would have hired somebody new to do for a wage.

The same issue is happening for people who want to advance into management. They can't get into entry level management because there is a pool of people with experience and employers would obviously choose to hire someone with experience in management over someone without any experience.

When I worked at WalMart as a stocker, I found many of my coworkers had bachelor's degrees, master's degree, and even PhDs. They could not get a job because all the positions required certifications that in turn required experience. I'm not just talking about poofy, liberal arts degrees. I'm also talking about science degrees like in Physics.

It's so bad that many professors now tell their students, "If you wanted to get into a professional position that requires a college education, then you better have done so before 2009." Your only other hope is to get a position through a college internship. But don't hold your breath. Many of the companies that work with colleges to set up an internship program have no reason to hire an intern since they have a constant flow of interns coming into their business. Some graduates are even competing for entry level positions on the other side of the country and moving, which is impossible for some since they have a house or family tying them down to where they are.

Labor statistics just don't show this endemic. They can't because not enough time has passed. But it is very real. America is fixed to have another Lost Generation.

i have noticed the same thing after i left the army.many jobs now are requiring college degrees and 5+ years experience to make barely above minimum wage.in all fairness though i was searching jobs over a year ago and most of them are still available.why is that?because at a certain point no one that experienced will work that cheap,and no one fresh out of college will work a job requiring 4 years of training for 10$ and hour when the could be a security guard for $12 an hour or work as a school janitor and make 15$ an hour in some states.


the jobs do exist that pay decent wages and allow internship,but they are never posted and require you to know someone to get them.in my fathers day jobs came during hischool graduation where a recruiter from whichever company would me you after the ceremony and asked where you where headed with your future,however those days are long gone.


the other big problem i see is internet job searches.before the internet you saw a job you applied for it in person.now they take applications from hundreds of people then sort through them without ever meeting the person.most jobs are open for months before they even start making calls.and they will probably get a complete scumbag whos good on paper.stuff like this has dilluted the job pool with idiots making employers reluctan to hire.

 

[imagep]

I believe it may be decades before it changes again.

Probably more like three or four or five years tops.

Just enough time to get your doctorate.

 

[imagep]

Social work.

A job at Walmart would be a step up in pay from a social worker.

 

[1Perry]

If I had a way to prove my claim beyond the anecdotal evidence, then I would. However, it is perfectly acceptable to counter it with anecdotal evidence since that is all I have to offer. It is difficult to measure underemployment, particularly for specific age groups.

I seriously doubt though that there were people with Masters degree and PhDs working at Wal Mart prior to 2009.

No, but this happens during every downturn.

But I also cannot argue that having a high demand degree in a field such as engineering, computer science, or actuary studies could not get you a job immediately. I've certainly considered going back to school and starting fresh in a field where there are entry level positions still available, although it is difficult to determine exactly what would be safest given the sudden shifts in the market. There just aren't any guarantees.

There never have been.

What I will argue is that the job market has not kept up with education. There are simply not enough professional jobs being created to keep up with the new graduates.

O.K. I don't know if this will help or not. It likely would not have registered with me when I was younger. I understand your frustration. It wasn't any fun trying to find a job in 1980 either. In time, you will do O.K. It's hard to picture right now and I understand that. Get a degree and it's going to work for you at some point. Whether or not you picked to right degree you did right by yourself by getting a degree.

My bet is on you as opposed to someone that does not have one. Hang in there. Enjoy your current place in life while you can and things will work out for you.

 

[CriticalThought]

Probably more like three or four or five years tops.

Just enough time to get your doctorate.

No way. I've learned my lesson. You can't educate yourself out of a lack of experience. If I go back to school, it will likely be in computer science or to an actuary. At least in those fields I could actually get a job after finishing school. Committing to a PhD would be a huge waste of time and money, and given that there is likely a higher education bubble, I don't see many employment prospects down the road.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

i have noticed the same thing after i left the army.many jobs now are requiring college degrees and 5+ years experience to make barely above minimum wage.in all fairness though i was searching jobs over a year ago and most of them are still available.why is that?because at a certain point no one that experienced will work that cheap,and no one fresh out of college will work a job requiring 4 years of training for 10$ and hour when the could be a security guard for $12 an hour or work as a school janitor and make 15$ an hour in some states.


the jobs do exist that pay decent wages and allow internship,but they are never posted and require you to know someone to get them.in my fathers day jobs came during hischool graduation where a recruiter from whichever company would me you after the ceremony and asked where you where headed with your future,however those days are long gone.


the other big problem i see is internet job searches.before the internet you saw a job you applied for it in person.now they take applications from hundreds of people then sort through them without ever meeting the person.most jobs are open for months before they even start making calls.and they will probably get a complete scumbag whos good on paper.stuff like this has dilluted the job pool with idiots making employers reluctan to hire.

My chances are greatly improved with an interview... I've had two legitimate ones. Was one of 4 interviewed candidates for a position at a local legal firm. Seemed like it would've been pretty awesome. Required bilingual and fit my job skills history. Someone with a current degree and likely not with a babyface got the job, however.

 

[imagep]

I would agree...
should I just...lie about whether I can stay permanently?

Possibly. If you need the money to survive, yes, lie. You don't owe a mininimum wage employer anything but minimum effort, especially if you arn't looking for a promotion within that company. then just don't put the job on your resume.

If not, just wait until you find out about your trip situation.

 

[CriticalThought]

A job at Walmart would be a step up in pay from a social worker.

Better clientele too. :mrgreen:

 

[CriticalThought]

O.K. I don't know if this will help or not. It likely would not have registered with me when I was younger. I understand your frustration. It wasn't any fun trying to find a job in 1980 either. In time, you will do O.K. It's hard to picture right now and I understand that. Get a degree and it's going to work for you at some point. Whether or not you picked to right degree you did right by yourself by getting a degree.

My bet is on you as opposed to someone that does not have one. Hang in there. Enjoy your current place in life while you can and things will work out for you.

I appreciate it and I hope you are right.

 

[Helix]

rungs have been removed from the ladder.

blaming the individual for not intuitively picking the correct growth industry ten years ago isn't the indictment that it once was. even in growth sectors, there aren't enough positions available to absorb those entering the job market.

luckily (and somewhat inadvertently), i did choose one of the growth industries. biotechnology just happened to be my interest at age 19 when i was in the position to make that decision. what that meant for me is that when i lost my job at the height of the financial crisis, it only took me 9 months to find another position. that is with a superior college record and 12 years experience in my field. however, since the position was contract, it came to an end, and i was back in the job market. i was able to find another position that otherwise might have gone to a recent graduate.

i can say this for biotech : it's a tough job market for graduates, because employees like me with extensive experience and an excellent work record are working those jobs instead of moving up the ladder.

 

[1Perry]

Stocking can get you in the door of a major retailer.
Finishing your degree gets you inside access to higher level \/\/ithin the business.

I'm a factory laborer, blue collar crappy job, if I finish my degree, I get first dibs on any job in my company, related to my degree.

(My \/\/ key is suddenly broken.:2mad

It's odd how things work......... I got lucky. I never did finish my degree. I took a part time job that I thought was going to work out but it didn't so I actually respect those who did get their degree whatever it is. Major props to all of them.....

Anyway, the job didn't work out. I did this and that. I took a job selling vacuums door to door. (talk about an absolutely sucky, lousy job) but I had a wife and kid to feed. That job led me to getting a job selling cars. It was a move up. One day I sold a car to a lady who was in charge of the initial hiring process at the corporation I mentioned earlier. I guess she liked me and asked me if I had ever applied. (at the time, most people hired for production was family of those already working there). I mentioned that to her and she told me to apply and call her after I did.

I applied along with 5,000 other people. I called her and then I called her again, then I called her again. I got an interview. I called her, then I called her and then I called her again. I got another interview. I then called her and called her and called her. After about a year and a half she called me. She said I was going to get a call offering me a job.

30 years ago it wouldn't have been my choice in life but the pay and benefits are very good for someone with no degree. The moral is, take a job when offered one if you don't have one. It doesn't matter what it is, you can never tell where it will lead.

 

[beerftw]

every job ive ever had other than the army was from simply knowing people.i decided to stay in texas after i left,even though the job market here is better than most places,i still knew people in cali who knew i was an awesome mechanic and would hire me for top dollar,especially since certain parts of cali had almost no diesel mechanics,or transmission mechanics,and i was experienced in both.however i stayed in texas because i love this state and outside of the coastal cities was nice in cali,but the state in general pissed me off.

i guess the moral of the story is that in todays economy its who you know.if you dont know anyone you gotta start at the bottom,even if your at mcdonalds or burgerking if you work hard enough someone will notice.work hard and maybe someone who sees that is gonna pay you and train you,because they know from the get-go that your not gonna be a flake.

 

[MaggieD]

I'm going to guess that, in a job market like this -- which I've never seen before in my working lifetime -- that networking is even more critical than it's ever been. It may be difficult to get an initial job in a field you're really interested in, but them's the breaks. Even when the job market is sailing along terrifically, it's often hard to get into our chosen career path right away.

I think of employers having positions to fill and how they go about it today. Put an advertisement in the newspaper and get 200 applicants to screen through...or even more! Or, have an ear to the ground within your company and look for referrals from those who are currently employed with you and see what shakes out.

If I were a new college graduate in today's environment, the first thing I would do is to pay a professional service to put together a compelling resume of my educational, extra-curricular, volunteer, and professional experience - along with a short effective cover letter.

I would be networking with any contacts I could muster, including those upper classmen whom I knew who were currently employed; my family; my employed friends; my church; my college advisors; my professors. I'd be contacting every headhunter I could identify, especially those who specialized in the field I was interested in.

In the meantime, I'd go get a part-time job at McDonald's to keep myself motivated and busy. I'd approach looking for a job as if it were my job.

Just some random thoughts...I am sure it's incredibly tough out there...a far cry from, "Okay, I've got my diploma, and tomorrow I start my new job."

 

[gingern44]

Here's a good piece on what it will take to turn things around for college grads as well as everyone else.

News Headlines

Here is the answer. Basically all job creation occurs in first year start-up businesses and then the rest in the 5% of small to medium-sized businesses that suddenly shoot-up to greatness. Job growth does not occur in big businesses. Big businesses are organizations with 10,000 or more employees. There are only 1000 “big” businesses in the US. These top 1000 businesses actually decrease net gained employees each year primarily for reasons of the process of acquiring and cutting costs and people and to some degree new efficiencies in technology. (Big business plays a very key role in the total ecosystem but are not themselves job creators.)

The specifics are this: America needs 5 million new real jobs created right now- real jobs, not “shovel- ready” government jobs. And about 10 million within the next five years to remain stable. We currently have about 500,000 new businesses per year start-up and this number is declining. We need 1,000,000 businesses to start-up each year to create enough new good jobs for available workers. Start-ups are currently declining, so job creation is losing energy.

There are six million current functioning small to medium-sized businesses and we need 5% or 300,000 of them to suddenly shoot up. There are the only two places on God’s green earth where authentic organic sustainable good jobs are created. Start-ups and shoot-ups. So the President, Congress and about 10,000 super impactful Americans need to point every decision and strategy at that.

Here is something almost nobody knows.

These all-important start-ups and shoot-ups don’t occur because of new legislation, new rules, more free money, or any other government tweaking. They occur during moments of unusually high inspiration. They are created by Americans seeking the great American dream.

Freedom.

They are created by people seeking independence and extreme individuality…freedom. Maybe that is why it is called “free” enterprise. And, these moments of start-ups and shoot-ups occur only in the presence of high confidence. High confidence in self, country and government. When six million small and medium-sized businesses lose their confidence, they stop growing. They stop hiring. Millions simply go broke.

Administrations, Congress and 10,000 American leaders across US cities do however create an environment of confidence and inspiration…or one of no confidence and misery. It is the job of leaders to create environments of high enthusiasm for enterprisers and emerging big-time rainmakers.

A country bankrupt of confidence can never come back. America will not come back until it experiences new historical highs in inspiration. More specifically, high inspiration toward entrepreneurship and free enterprise. There is no other way out. There will be no surge in start-ups and shoot-ups until leaders change the environment from its current state of no confidence to high confidence. When it does, America will come back, new good jobs will hatch.

And oh yes. if we don’t figure out right now how jobs are hatched……China really is coming.

Any other thinking is hallucination or at best a temporary or pretend job.

From my own personal experience I feel the most disturbing thing I see comes from small business people themselves. The majority seem very intent on steering
their children away from the business. The common refrain is "it's just not worth it anymore". Of course that could change as other opportunities dwindle. I can't help but feel we are beating entrepreneurship out of the population.

I'm a 3rd generation small business person and it really can be bred into you. I guess it can be bred out as well.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

OP: I have seen precisely the same thing. I know a guy with a Masters in physics and astronomy who's scraping by with freelance lighting jobs and food stamps. He can't find anywhere else, because he can't get work in his field because he doesn't yet have experience outside university research, but he's so incredibly over-qualified that even the min wage jobs won't take him because he's older and they have their pick of young kids with BA's who don't yet know what their time is worth.

It's awful. And yes, they do prep you to work for free, for years, while you're still in college. I realized about a year ago that mine will be a lost generation. A hideous economy where we're basically considered to be free, expendable labor to every employer, combined with a childhood full of helicopter parenting robbing us of any self-sufficiency, and I fear we will be a generation with neither the ability nor the opportunity to make anything of ourselves.

But it's not taking me down with it. I'm kicking and screaming all the way to the ground, and I will NOT work for free.

Believe it or not, I've made headway. I couldn't find a job in my field about a year ago, so I made one. I wound up having to leave it, but hey, I got it going.

The student paper I'm the editor of has a staggering time commitment. For the top editors (me and the managing editor) it's a full 15-20 hour p/w job at least. Section editors, still 10-15. Even for regular staff, it's 5-10. I'm pushing, and succeeding, in getting us on work study. Because frankly we deserve it. We're the hardest-working, highest-output, highest-quality organization on any campus in our entire system or even the entire Midwest amongst schools of our type, and we have the awards and the time sheets to prove it. We frickin' deserve it. And we'll get it if it's the last thing I ever do. These people deserve to be paid properly and understand the value of their time before they leave here and have someone try to tell them otherwise.

Connections help. So does a lot of stubbornness. You need both in abundance, plus a little bit of luck, to get anywhere. But it's that or wake up one day at 30 and wonder why you're still at minimum wage, while you work at what you love for free on the side. I'm not winding up like that.

 

[drz-400]

I've had good luck. Will be graduating this spring. Have one job offer in hand I am likely going to accept w/ an engineering consultant and have 3 interviews set up for next month with some oilfield service companies. I applied for a while online before hearing back from one of the oil companies. You need to tailor your cover letter to fit the job description and match a lot of the keywords in the job description to get through the screener. I also use my universities career center because they post interviews and jobs up there. Lots of those are entry level/internships.

 

[1Perry]

These all-important start-ups and shoot-ups don’t occur because of new legislation, new rules, more free money , or any other government tweaking. They occur during moments of unusually high inspiration. They are created by Americans seeking the great American dream.

It should be noted that the markets are at 13,000 not because of new job creation but because of the "free money".

 

[whysoserious]

I've had good luck. Will be graduating this spring. Have one job offer in hand I am likely going to accept w/ an engineering consultant and have 3 interviews set up for next month with some oilfield service companies. I applied for a while online before hearing back from one of the oil companies. You need to tailor your cover letter to fit the job description and match a lot of the keywords in the job description to get through the screener. I also use my universities career center because they post interviews and jobs up there. Lots of those are entry level/internships.

Good luck, man. Some of it is luck and some of it isn't. I tried using my local resources (friends and family), but that was moving slow and not looking good. However, I did eventually get a random call back for an interview late January. I was hired and will start in less than two weeks. It takes a bit of luck and a lot of persistence. Don't give up! Take a ****ty job if you need to, but keep applying for the ones you deserve!

(aka don't listen to these nutjob republicans who will guilt trip you because you can't find work and don't give up on whatever job you are going for).

 

[drz-400]

Good luck, man. Some of it is luck and some of it isn't. I tried using my local resources (friends and family), but that was moving slow and not looking good. However, I did eventually get a random call back for an interview late January. I was hired and will start in less than two weeks. It takes a bit of luck and a lot of persistence. Don't give up! Take a ****ty job if you need to, but keep applying for the ones you deserve!

(aka don't listen to these nutjob republicans who will guilt trip you because you can't find work and don't give up on whatever job you are going for).

It does get frustrating and I was getting pretty burnt out up until a few weeks ago. But the offer I have now is actually a very good one in my field and I have experience interning with the same type of work. I want to work at one of the oil companies though to get experience working in the field and also because the pay is significantly better, but I can't really complain with what I would be getting with my current offer.
Glad to hear you have found something though.

 

[whysoserious]

It does get frustrating and I was getting pretty burnt out up until a few weeks ago. But the offer I have now is actually a very good one in my field and I have experience interning with the same type of work. I want to work at one of the oil companies though to get experience working in the field and also because the pay is significantly better, but I can't really complain with what I would be getting with my current offer.
Glad to hear you have found something though.

That sounds very similar to me. I graduated in December and January was cold (very cold). I applied EVERYWHERE and not a nibble was felt. Nothing. Not a bite: no interviews or anything. It was weird: I could feel the people around me being disappointed in my inability to find work (lol). You know what I mean, I'm sure. Finally in late January I got a call back from a major company here and I landed the job in my first interview (which is lucky). Glad to hear you have an offer - you and I are the lucky ones.

 

[Paschendale]

Law students like me are constantly exploited for free labor. The system is basically set up right now that if you don't work for free for three years while studying, you won't work when you're done. A lot of offices are set up expecting to have a couple of unpaid legal interns kicking around. We've moved from an internship being something special, to a person being left out in the cold if they don't do it.

The net result is that education becomes even more expensive, because students can't take paying jobs while studying, and have to do the unpaid internships.

 

[barbarian_style]

When I did hiring I didn't like to see any college, for some reason they think they are worth more with no experience and I didn't see the longevity of them sticking around. It cost to much to train someone that isn't going to be around in a year or first chance to move into there field of study. There was a saying in going over applicants of college grads, overqualified.

I didn't mind trade school or even HS diplomas they seem to be happy to get a better than the average wage starting out for the area. You could train them they way you want and they just seem to accept the job as a job. It also seemed that they would stick around longer if you treated them right and gave fair evaluations along with mediocre wage increases. I also found it wasn't always the money but also the atmosphere you created for them to work in, "heh, let me get lunch today."

Small business getting stomped on by big corporations are the ones that drive wages down and crappy work environments IMO.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Yes and no. I went into social work because it offers a lot more opportunity than psychology. But you are right. It isn't a high demand field. Social workers are among the easiest employees to live without when things go bad in the economy.

Ever think of transitioning over to HR in a company?
It's transferable with a degree in social work.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

It's odd how things work......... I got lucky. I never did finish my degree. I took a part time job that I thought was going to work out but it didn't so I actually respect those who did get their degree whatever it is. Major props to all of them.....

Anyway, the job didn't work out. I did this and that. I took a job selling vacuums door to door. (talk about an absolutely sucky, lousy job) but I had a wife and kid to feed. That job led me to getting a job selling cars. It was a move up. One day I sold a car to a lady who was in charge of the initial hiring process at the corporation I mentioned earlier. I guess she liked me and asked me if I had ever applied. (at the time, most people hired for production was family of those already working there). I mentioned that to her and she told me to apply and call her after I did.

I applied along with 5,000 other people. I called her and then I called her again, then I called her again. I got an interview. I called her, then I called her and then I called her again. I got another interview. I then called her and called her and called her. After about a year and a half she called me. She said I was going to get a call offering me a job.

30 years ago it wouldn't have been my choice in life but the pay and benefits are very good for someone with no degree. The moral is, take a job when offered one if you don't have one. It doesn't matter what it is, you can never tell where it will lead.

Sorta the same thing that happened to me.
I got my foot in the door of a small business that was very specialized and in demand, turns out I was great at it.
Even the jerk owner had to tell me he was surprised at the speed and quality of my work.
Problem was, he left me being paid $8 an hour, when my skill level demanded more.

Bad things happened, I quit because I was past the point of desperation.

Found out there was a manufacturer near me, hiring temps.
That's after apping everywhere and being turned down.
The lady said I may hear from her in a month or so.
She called back the next day.

Now I'm earning about $42k a year in pay and benefits.
Their internal hiring process for people, who finish school, is excellent too.
Not gonna lie though, I hate my current position there.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

RE OP: Death of the entry level?

I'm 31 - and before even becoming a college student as I am now I worked as management in 5 different businesses. I didn't start *as* management - I started in telesales for West Telecommunications when I was 17. I have what it takes to land a good job in an interview. I'm confident, I know what the boss wants to hear, I'm energetic - and I'm full of **** (this goes a long way) - specifically - full of the right kind of ****. I can be cocky - but in proper, measured amounts.

One thing that's crucial to learn is HOW to ply to your potential employer's *needs* to show you've already received the experience: For me I learn what the basics of the job are - and emphasize that I already have all that under my belt. "Job experience" doesn't need to be *that exact same job title* for it to be sufficient experience. It could be gathered from different places - not just one.

So writing resumes that emphasize what you DO know how to do is crucial - that determine, before an interview, if they're wanting to consider you at all or not.

So whether or not I was any good is up for debate: but I have been an assistant manager at several businesses. . . that alone speaks volumes.

so: when I seek out employment - that is my experience. School just expounds on what I've already done in life.