Tesla’s giant battery saved $40 million during its first year, report says

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Good to hear! I was just reading about Li Ion batteries, including the supply of Lithium and the ability to recycle. 66% of the world's Lithium is in South America, with most in the ABC sector (Argentina, Brazil and Chile). These countries are ramping up production, especially Argentina.

Info on recycling --->

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywis...ent-recycling-process-for-lithiumion-cathodes

Lithium batteries have anodes made of graphite and cathodes made of lithium metal oxides, where the metal is some combination of cobalt, nickel, manganese, and iron. Less than five percent of old lithium batteries are recycled today. As millions of large EV batteries retire in the next decade, we’re going to send even bigger mountains of flammable, toxic battery waste to landfills. Plus, that waste contains valuable metals. There is serious concern that supplies of critical metals like cobalt and lithium are dwindling. Recycling is going to be key if we’re to keep up with battery demand.

Recycling is ridiculously easy if the industry does it the way industries have done it for decades:

If the industry isn't willing to do it, the problem is on them because they're going to have competition from emerging technologies like graphene and others. It is very easy to motivate recyclers to establish pickup paths for Li-Ion batteries the same way dairies and soda companies did ages ago.

I've been using Li-Ion batteries since 1995.



PS: Large EV batteries will NEVER EVER wind up in landfills. Stop and think about that for a moment.
Are you sure the author even takes their own statement seriously? I'd question the author's sanity seriously if they actually believe that large EV car batteries will wind up in landfills.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

And as far as a short life span, I would think these companies would have a change-out preventative maintenance plan.

Short lifespan? That reeks of MORE F.U.D. handwringing.
The first Prius and Volt fleet batteries are starting to rack up 300 and 400 thousand miles over operating lifetimes of between eight and fifteen years of daily use. And those are Nickel Metal-Hydride, to say nothing of Lithium-Ion.
I still have professional Lithium-Ion Trim-pac camera batteries from 1998 that are still fully operational.
I sold three of them and kept one for messing around with because I retired the camera they were used on. That's right, the batteries OUTLASTED the TV camera, okay?

The key to extending Ni-Mh and Li-Ion battery lifetime is smart charge management, and for applications like automotive and mission critical power generation, you better believe that they have smart charge management built in.

Our stupid smartphones are the devices that often DO NOT have "smart charge management" built in. We buy cheapo $4.99 charger wall packs from the gas station and wonder why our phone battery got fried, or blew up.

Eight to fifteen years is a pretty damn good service life. Whoever is thinking Li-Ion cannot provide long enough service life is talking like the old buggy whip makers when the first horseless carriages arrived in town.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Batteries have huge storage needs, are extremely expensive, have low service lives, and low output per square foot floor of space compared to traditional power plants.

California is not wise to scrap their traditional plants in favor of these low life energy sources.

You're metal specialist, yes? Are you also an electrical engineer?
I do not have a Masters in EE but I did have an Advanced Extra Amateur Radio License AND an FCC First Class Commercial Radiotelephone Operator Permit, and thirty five years experience in film/TV dealing with these storage batteries on a day to day basis, both small (portable) and LARGE (station backup) PLUS a decade in IT/telecom.

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about, that's all there is to it.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No, marke is actually quite right. Batteries are expensive, have a limited life span and must be replaced from time to tome (the life of a typical lithium cell is about 5-10 years, the life of a typical lead-acid cell is about 5-7 years). They do have low output per square foot of floor space since their net output is zero. They are storage media for electricity. They have no output of their own. They must be charged.

He is also quite correct. It is not wise for California (or anywhere else!) to scrap the use of coal, oil, natural gas, hydroelectric, nuclear, or other power sources in favor of less efficient sources such as wind ad solar (batteries are not a source). Both solar and wind require tremendous amounts of real estate to produce the piddle power they produce. Both are expensive and also require replacement of their equipment from time to time.

That said, energy markets can and do run freely. If someone wants to invest in solar power, let 'em. If someone wants to invest in a coal plant, let 'em. Manipulating energy markets by dictat is a fascist or communist form of government. That is socialism. It is price controls. Price controls ALWAYS FAIL. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth. It doesn't create any, like capitalism does.

It is amusing to hear you speak of a 5-10 year service life as "short" especially when it is proven that it's really closer to 10-15 years for professional/commercial grade Lithium-Ion.

You too, do not know what you're talking about.

 

[marke]

You're metal specialist, yes? Are you also an electrical engineer?
I do not have a Masters in EE but I did have an Advanced Extra Amateur Radio License AND an FCC First Class Commercial Radiotelephone Operator Permit, and thirty five years experience in film/TV dealing with these storage batteries on a day to day basis, both small (portable) and LARGE (station backup) PLUS a decade in IT/telecom.

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about, that's all there is to it.

My bad? I was just telling you what I read from what experts said. I don't need an electrical degree to read what an electrical engineer says.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What was their method of measurement? To me, it sounds like they pulled a number out of their ass based on faulty reasoning...

Into the Night is correct; there is no way to measure how much lithium is in the world.

I'll never forget the arguments on the pro-video forums about how we were surely going to run out of Chromium Dioxide due to the demand for audio and videotape. Sounds very familiar. Long before we ever have to worry about running out of lithium, the industry will have tapped into newer technologies which will surpass everything.
Are we going to run out of CARBON? Because graphene is the next tech coming down Battery Row.

 

[marke]

Recycling is ridiculously easy if the industry does it the way industries have done it for decades:

If the industry isn't willing to do it, the problem is on them because they're going to have competition from emerging technologies like graphene and others. It is very easy to motivate recyclers to establish pickup paths for Li-Ion batteries the same way dairies and soda companies did ages ago.

I've been using Li-Ion batteries since 1995.

View attachment 67249287

PS: Large EV batteries will NEVER EVER wind up in landfills. Stop and think about that for a moment.
Are you sure the author even takes their own statement seriously? I'd question the author's sanity seriously if they actually believe that large EV car batteries will wind up in landfills.

Recycling car batteries is posing future nightmares for proponents of clean environment protections. One problem facing recyclers is lithium.
How can the lithium be extracted from spent batteries? Just toss them into the landfill? Invest in hugely expensive extraction processes and then bury the recovered lithium in sealed underground vaults like nuclear waste? Just store undamaged batteries in above-ground battery graveyards like old jet airliners?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

EPA standards and regulations are not like the laws of nature. Life has gotten on fine for hundreds of years before men came along to devise standards for everyone to follow. They are not meant to be viewed as required by God no matter if trying to meet them bankrupts a whole nation.

There are no laws of nature. Jesus Christ confirmed this.

 

[marke]

There are no laws of nature. Jesus Christ confirmed this.

How about Jesus' 'unnatural laws' of the supernatural, as in "it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment."

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

My bad? I was just telling you what I read from what experts said. I don't need an electrical degree to read what an electrical engineer says.

And I responded way way back asking if you ever bothered to actually READ what that engineer said.

Today’s battery storage technology works best in a limited role, as a substitute for “peaking” power plants, according to a 2016 analysis by researchers at MIT and Argonne National Lab. These are smaller facilities, frequently fueled by natural gas today, that can afford to operate infrequently, firing up quickly when prices and demand are high.

Lithium-ion batteries could compete economically with these natural-gas peakers within the next five years, says Marco Ferrara, a cofounder of Form Energy, an MIT spinout developing grid storage batteries.

“The gas peaker business is pretty close to ending, and lithium-ion is a great replacement,” he says.

Do I need to repost that five or six more times until you actually SEE IT?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Here it is again:

Today’s battery storage technology works best in a limited role, as a substitute for “peaking” power plants, according to a 2016 analysis by researchers at MIT and Argonne National Lab. These are smaller facilities, frequently fueled by natural gas today, that can afford to operate infrequently, firing up quickly when prices and demand are high.

Lithium-ion batteries could compete economically with these natural-gas peakers within the next five years, says Marco Ferrara, a cofounder of Form Energy, an MIT spinout developing grid storage batteries.

“The gas peaker business is pretty close to ending, and lithium-ion is a great replacement,” he says.

Today’s battery storage technology works best in a limited role, as a substitute for “peaking” power plants, according to a 2016 analysis by researchers at MIT and Argonne National Lab. These are smaller facilities, frequently fueled by natural gas today, that can afford to operate infrequently, firing up quickly when prices and demand are high.

Lithium-ion batteries could compete economically with these natural-gas peakers within the next five years, says Marco Ferrara, a cofounder of Form Energy, an MIT spinout developing grid storage batteries.

“The gas peaker business is pretty close to ending, and lithium-ion is a great replacement,” he says.

Today’s battery storage technology works best in a limited role, as a substitute for “peaking” power plants, according to a 2016 analysis by researchers at MIT and Argonne National Lab. These are smaller facilities, frequently fueled by natural gas today, that can afford to operate infrequently, firing up quickly when prices and demand are high.

Lithium-ion batteries could compete economically with these natural-gas peakers within the next five years, says Marco Ferrara, a cofounder of Form Energy, an MIT spinout developing grid storage batteries.

“The gas peaker business is pretty close to ending, and lithium-ion is a great replacement,” he says.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Recycling car batteries is posing future nightmares for proponents of clean environment protections. One problem facing recyclers is lithium.
How can the lithium be extracted from spent batteries? Just toss them into the landfill? Invest in hugely expensive extraction processes and then bury the recovered lithium in sealed underground vaults like nuclear waste? Just store undamaged batteries in above-ground battery graveyards like old jet airliners?

No it isn't. The only factor is the price of lithium. It is not brain surgery to recover metals, never has been.
When the price goes up, recovery methods will become more and more viable, but eventually newer technology like graphene batteries will make it all irrelevant.

We're maybe five to ten years away OR LESS, from commercially available GRAPHENE batteries.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You know what you and Into the Night both sound like?
You both sound like those old film guys who spent their last ten years in the industry FURIOUSLY PROCLAIMING that high definition video would never ever replace FILM.

Know what THOSE guys sounded like before THEM?
They sounded like the older guys before them who spent the last decade in the industry FURIOUSLY PROCLAIMING that computer non-linear editing would NEVER EVER replace motion picture film editing on a flatbed or Moviola system.

There is a commonly used term to describe you (marke) and Into the Night.

LUDDITES

 

[Tanngrisnir]

How about Jesus' 'unnatural laws' of the supernatural, as in "it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment."

Jesus Christ specifically stated there are no laws, of any kind, at any time, in any place.

None. Not even one.

 

[marke]

Here it is again:

One guy says lithium batteries "could" compete economically with natural-gas peakers, under unnamed conditions with unexplained limitations. I am OK with that.

Another suggestion is that the gas peaker business is pretty close to ending. Maybe or maybe not, but what if it is? Is total future dependency on unproven lithium battery a wise thing to plan on? NOT NECESSARILY

Here is what was said in the article:

But there's a problem with this rosy scenario. The batteries are far too expensive and don't last nearly long enough, limiting the role they can play on the grid, EXPERTS SAY.

 

[marke]

Jesus Christ specifically stated there are no laws, of any kind, at any time, in any place.

None. Not even one.

The law is not made for a righteous man,but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

1 Timothy 1

 

[Tanngrisnir]

The law is not made for a righteous man,but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

1 Timothy 1

See? Christ said there are no laws! Thanks for proving my point for me!

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

One guy says lithium batteries "could" compete economically with natural-gas peakers, under unnamed conditions with unexplained limitations. I am OK with that.

Another suggestion is that the gas peaker business is pretty close to ending. Maybe or maybe not, but what if it is? Is total future dependency on unproven lithium battery a wise thing to plan on? NOT NECESSARILY

Here is what was said in the article:

But there's a problem with this rosy scenario. The batteries are far too expensive and don't last nearly long enough, limiting the role they can play on the grid, EXPERTS SAY.

And that is incorrect because a lithium ion storage array lasts about as long as the main components of a gas to electricity plant. Or did you think that alternators last longer than ten years?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Stop inserting Jesus into a thread about electrical power plants.
Specifically, stop pretending that God prefers natural gas over batteries.
I assure you, God doesn't give a damn.

 

[marke]

And that is incorrect because a lithium ion storage array lasts about as long as the main components of a gas to electricity plant. Or did you think that alternators last longer than ten years?

I cannot argue with your unverified opinions because I am torn between various views of experts. I do know for a fact that they are having serious problems with their new transformation to dependency on green energy.

 

[Lord of Planar]

And that is incorrect because a lithium ion storage array lasts about as long as the main components of a gas to electricity plant. Or did you think that alternators last longer than ten years?

Sorry, that's not true. Some have a nice lifetime under optimum conditions, but lose around 50% or more capacity after 5-7years of typical usage.

I believe alternaters have atypical 50,000 hour bearing change and other wear parts. It's not an expensive rebuild. Batteries are replaced 100%, probably in the 3 to 5 year range.

 

[Into the Night]

Recycling is ridiculously easy if the industry does it the way industries have done it for decades:

If the industry isn't willing to do it, the problem is on them because they're going to have competition from emerging technologies like graphene and others. It is very easy to motivate recyclers to establish pickup paths for Li-Ion batteries the same way dairies and soda companies did ages ago.

I've been using Li-Ion batteries since 1995.

View attachment 67249287

PS: Large EV batteries will NEVER EVER wind up in landfills. Stop and think about that for a moment.
Are you sure the author even takes their own statement seriously? I'd question the author's sanity seriously if they actually believe that large EV car batteries will wind up in landfills.

They very well might. You see, it's less expensive to mine lithium and smelt it than it is to recycle old lithium batteries. Don't worry about that though. Old lithium batteries are safe in landfills.

 

[Media_Truth]

And the democrat party insists it is united behind the dozens of the best candidates for president in 2020 the country has to offer.

Probably have a lot more to offer than the group of do-nothings that controlled all 3 Legislative branches from 2017-2018, and did nothing except give billionaires tax cuts. All those promises (ie health care), and nothing!

 

[Media_Truth]

Sorry, that's not true. Some have a nice lifetime under optimum conditions, but lose around 50% or more capacity after 5-7years of typical usage.

I believe alternaters have atypical 50,000 hour bearing change and other wear parts. It's not an expensive rebuild. Batteries are replaced 100%, probably in the 3 to 5 year range.

A gas-to-electric plant has a lot more moving parts than an alternator. Steam turbines require a lot of maintenance. Boilers, which produce the steam require a lot of maintenance, including much, much corrosion resistance maintenance. Chemicals must be constantly added and managed. Even then, tubes have to be inspected and replaced. It is quite costly.

Standby lithium-ion batteries, in conjunction with recycling and rebuilding new Li-ion batteries may turn out to be much less expensive. We shall see...

 

[gfm7175]

Probably have a lot more to offer than the group of do-nothings that controlled all 3 Legislative branches from 2017-2018,

Okay, so let me get this straight... You are unhappy with Republicans whenever they 'do nothing', yet you are also unhappy with them whenever they 'do something'?? Sounds like you are rather hateful towards people who don't hold a similar mindset to yourself... That's not very nice of you.

and did nothing except give billionaires tax cuts.

Paradox. Irrational reasoning...

1) Republicans do nothing.
2) Republicans give billionaires tax cuts.

Do they 'do nothing' or do they 'do something'?

All those promises (ie health care), and nothing!

Continued irrational reasoning... now you're back to saying they do nothing... make up your mind already...