Terror -- The Uk's New Christmas export

[Arcana XV]

Click the link and find out.

I did. It brought me to post #401 in this thread, which is one of yours and there is no mention in there about any American law that might be used to ban a religious book.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Look at your posts. Since you joined this site the European section has been an attack on Muslims and especially the Koran. To call it hate is mild. Your support of Juiletsm would remove any doubt. Frankly I am tempted to use a more realistic psychological description but that may, depending on the orientation of the person who read it be misunderstood.

Are you an islamophile?

 

[alexa]

Are you an islamophile?

No. ten letters

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

No. ten letters

I've never figured out why Euro secularists are so enamored with Islam. Maybe it fills a void. Who knows? Thanks.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Frankly I am tempted to use a more realistic psychological description but that may, depending on the orientation of the person who read it be misunderstood.

Yeah, the Soviets thought that way about their political opponents too! Probably have me in the loony bin if you could, faster than I could say Labour Akbar!

So much for the even-tempered chat we were having. With no gravitas either, hence the loaded criticism but absolutely no suggestion as to how to 'properly' interpret vitriolic Koranic passages such as 9:29.

It brought me to post #401 in this thread, which is one of yours and there is no mention in there about any American law that might be used to ban a religious book.

It's right there: Putting the Koran on trial, the hate crimes of Islam

Additionally, California's new hate crime bill, SB-1234, would condemn the Koran (in context), as a document threatening violence.

 

[Ikari]

I've never figured out why Euro secularists are so enamored with Islam. Maybe it fills a void. Who knows? Thanks.

Europe in general is rather xenophobic. They don't like them there Muslims. France goes to extraordinary lengths to keep them down and out of their society. And then they wonder why they riot every year.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

And then they wonder why they riot every year.

One of the riots started because a Muslim criminal killed himself in an electrical sub-station whilst fleeing from the police.

Damn that Froggie xylophobia, making all those thugs set Paris ablaze!

 

[Ikari]

One of the riots started because a Muslim criminal killed himself in an electrical sub-station whilst fleeing from the police.

Damn that Froggie xylophobia, making all those thugs set Paris ablaze!

If that's what you want to believe, then so be it. But in many places Muslim's don't riot because a criminal killed himself (America for example). The reality of the situation is that the exclusive tendencies of many European nations, particularly against the Muslim sect, has created a tinderbox just waiting for a match. Anything will set it off. The underlying tones of xenophobia and policies directed towards exclusion of certain groups has caused significant stress in the system. When you have that, something as stupid as a criminal killing himself can be enough to set it off.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Anything will set it off.

Like a Koran being roughly handled at Athens airport, or a woman allowing a child to name a teddy bear Muhammad, or the printing of a few cartoons for example! Louts don't need any real reasons to act like savages. They are after all, as we're told, the volatile Islamists who are nothing like the rest of the Muslims.

I say no more, other than to notice the attitude that it's everyone's fault but theirs again. Had such an irresponsible attitude taken root with other religions then the Jews would have had more cause than most to set the world ablaze for all they've genuinely suffered since the year dot. But almost to a person they've been as good as gold all this time.

 

[Ikari]

I say no more, other than to notice the attitude that it's everyone's fault but theirs again. Had such an irresponsible attitude taken root with other religions then the Jews would have had more cause than most to set the world ablaze for all they've genuinely suffered since the year dot. But almost to a person they've been as good as gold all this time.

I didn't say that it was everyone's fault but theirs. That's stupid, and to claim such is intellectually dishonest. Of course people are responsible for their actions. The rioters do wrong and can be justly convicted of their crimes. Government force can rightfully be used against their exercise of their rights. My comment was that they shouldn't be surprised that the riots happen all the time. No, those that riot and infringe upon the rights of others are not free of fault. But neither is the society which purposefully sets itself against certain sects totally innocent.

 

[Arcana XV]

It's right there: Putting the Koran on trial, the hate crimes of Islam

All right. I'm going to assume you've done your research and have actually read California SB1234. Could you please quote the exact passage in that bill that would allow the State of California to ban the Koran? I'm only asking because I seem to be a bit thick this bright early morning and can't seem to find the part where that is mentioned in the bill. As a matter of fact, this bill seems to dramatically increase the chances that any sort of rising anti-Islam sentiment would swiftly be crushed. If I'm interpreting this bill incorrectly please kindly explain to me what I'm missing. Thanks.

 

[Arcana XV]

It is fascinating. A thread about terrorism in the UK and rop seems to have no interest in it's causes and what to do about it, just another board for his hatred of his reading of the Koran.



France had of course experience in dealing with Muslim terrorists before 9/11 and then we have the question of the origin of our Muslims. Both UK and US Reports are saying that people who have their origin in Pakistan are the most likely to be involved. In that respect I think the US has more than France.

I have also noticed that funnily enough French Muslims have a better standard of living. On average they manage the highest standard of living in a comparison of France, Spain, the UK and Germany....so maybe we are all reading too much into those 'camps' and maybe they are doing a little more positive work than we think.

France's problems with its Muslim population are extremely complex. Most of it based on socio-economic issues and not religious conflict. It deserves a thread in and of itself if only to dispel the mistaken notions many people still have on the subject.

I know that many French Muslims are doing very well indeed and are reasonably happy with their lot. There are still problem "ghetto areas" all over the country that need to be dealt with, though.

 

[Grant]

Thanks for the cool discussion, Grant. Always a pleasure. I think we've pretty much covered everything.

It's a shared pleasure. There are different positions, we may move to the left or right, it often becomes overheated, but frequently a genuine relationship develops.

I wish I could come up with a proper analogy for the experience.

 

[Grant]

I didn't say that it was everyone's fault but theirs.

It certainly seems like it when you call Europeans xenophobic, that they don't like Muslims, and that France goes to extraordinary lengths to keep them down and out. You also suggested that the riots, which includes millions of dollars in damage, are somehow justified.

A reminder' -

Europe in general is rather xenophobic. They don't like them there Muslims. France goes to extraordinary lengths to keep them down and out of their society. And then they wonder why they riot every year.

 

[Ikari]

It certainly seems like it when you call Europeans xenophobic, that they don't like Muslims, and that France goes to extraordinary lengths to keep them down and out. You also suggested that the riots, which includes millions of dollars in damage, are somehow justified.

A reminder' -

That's why people should read a bit better. Europe is xenophobic, statement of fact. France does go to extraordinary lengths to separate out their Muslim population and alienate them from society, statement of fact. I did not, however, say the riots were justified. I said they shouldn't be surprised by them. Please learn to read.

 

[Grant]

That's why people should read a bit better. Europe is xenophobic, statement of fact.

Well then you shouldn't have any problem giving some evidence for this 'statement of fact'. Would you please do so?

France does go to extraordinary lengths to separate out their Muslim population and alienate them from society, statement of fact.

Again, please give the evidence.

I did not, however, say the riots were justified. I said they shouldn't be surprised by them. Please learn to read.

And i said you SUGGESTED the riots were justified, which you certainly did. Follow your own instruction.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

It's a shared pleasure. There are different positions, we may move to the left or right, it often becomes overheated, but frequently a genuine relationship develops.

I wish I could come up with a proper analogy for the experience.

You wouldn't be making a move on my lady, wouldja?




TED,
Honestly couldn't resist, sorry. :lol:

 

[alexa]

France's problems with its Muslim population are extremely complex. Most of it based on socio-economic issues and not religious conflict.

Interesting because until recently I would have thought that it was not to do with religion with us too, thought there were problems with racism as well as the socio-economic. Tell me did France allow Saudi Arabia to donate a massive amount of money setting up mosques and providing Salafi/Wahhabi teachings?

It deserves a thread in and of itself if only to dispel the mistaken notions many people still have on the subject.

Gosh I have thought that so many times about different things in this thread. It is a very complex issue.

I know that many French Muslims are doing very well indeed and are reasonably happy with their lot. There are still problem "ghetto areas" all over the country that need to be dealt with, though.

It is interesting. In polls they appear to believe they do not suffer from too much discrimination.

 

[Arcana XV]

Interesting because until recently I would have thought that it was not to do with religion with us too, thought there were problems with racism as well as the socio-economic. Tell me did France allow Saudi Arabia to donate a massive amount of money setting up mosques and providing Salafi/Wahhabi teachings?

I actually don't know for sure, but knowing how good France is at uncovering extremists and how quickly radical Imams are deported, I would imagine that if there are any Saudi funded mosques in France they are being very closely monitored.

This is a good article on Imams in France:

France to train imams in 'French Islam' | World news | The Guardian

It is interesting. In polls they appear to believe they do not suffer from too much discrimination.

I guess it would depend on what part of the Muslim population was polled. I think that those who live in the poorest suburbs would be more likely to say they've experienced discrimination. The majority of Muslims don't live in those areas anymore, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the latest polls are more positive.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

But neither is the society which purposefully sets itself against certain sects totally innocent.

As a society, especially in tolerant Britain where we put up with so much without rioting like Frenchmen, we've bent over backwards to make Muslims welcome. Complaints about immigration levels aside, most of us bore no animosity to Muslims as a mass at all. But especially since September 11, constant griping from 'community leaders' and ordinary Muslims about not getting enough, plus the constant pandering by Government to try and soothe a victim mentality and sympathy for extremists by ordinary Muslims, has been the primary reason for dislike by ordinary people.

As a matter of fact, this bill seems to dramatically increase the chances that any sort of rising anti-Islam sentiment would swiftly be crushed.

This is about it: Hate crime legislation: federal and state

The bit that's evidently referred to is the hate speech and incitement to violence part. The Koran can be argued to be central to that whenever some Islamonut attacks a Jew or generally makes a militant nuisance of himself. And if any yobs arbitrarily attack ordinary Muslims, on the assumption that they're bound to be terrorists because their 'prophet' was, then they'd probably find themselves busted on this law too.

 

[Arcana XV]

This is about it: Hate crime legislation: federal and state

The bit that's evidently referred to is the hate speech and incitement to violence part. The Koran can be argued to be central to that whenever some Islamonut attacks a Jew or generally makes a militant nuisance of himself. And if any yobs arbitrarily attack ordinary Muslims, on the assumption that they're bound to be terrorists because their 'prophet' was, then they'd probably find themselves busted on this law too.

If the Koran is to be banned in California under this law, then the Bible will be next whenever some nut threatens to shoot another abortion doctor or threatens to beat up another gay man. I honestly don't think the law will ever be used in this way. Even if someone attempted to ban the holy books under this law, the USC's First Amendment would shoot it down real fast.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

France's problems with its Muslim population are extremely complex. Most of it based on socio-economic issues and not religious conflict --

Do you feel in comparison to the UK, France's smaller role and presence in Afghanistan (and none in Iraq) have helped minimise any tensions from the muslim community there?

I'd certainly agree that France has been much more hard nosed about the muslim community integrating and becoming French than the UK - but I also remember that Jean Marie Le Pen used the muslim presence as one of his electioneering platforms that nearly took him to the Presidential Palace a few years ago - most of France's politicians took a decisive step to the right, as did the voting public.

 

[Grant]

You wouldn't be making a move on my lady, wouldja?

Gee, TED, a few innocent observations about the dynamics of a debate board and immediately impure motives are being suggested.

I'm shocked!

 

[Grant]

I actually don't know for sure, but knowing how good France is at uncovering extremists and how quickly radical Imams are deported, I would imagine that if there are any Saudi funded mosques in France they are being very closely monitored.

This is a good article on Imams in France:

France to train imams in 'French Islam' | World news | The Guardian



I guess it would depend on what part of the Muslim population was polled. I think that those who live in the poorest suburbs would be more likely to say they've experienced discrimination. The majority of Muslims don't live in those areas anymore, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the latest polls are more positive.

Fascinating article, Arcana.

"But he said France had to "face the issue of training imams. I ask you to help the Muslim faith get organised better and more quickly so that a real 'French Islam' can emerge."

And I wonder what form this will take. Islam lite, maybe. OR Perhaps something along the lines of Catholim.

He acknowledged it was up to the Muslim community to take responsibility for training "homegrown" imams who were familiar with French life. But he said little would be achieved without state aid - which could contravene France's strict laws on the separation of church and state

Perhaps Suadi Arabia might contribute, as they certainly have in the past to the more radical learning institutions. Or wealthy French Muslims. Or instead of calling it religious training they could fund it the same way they fund those who study science or engineering and call it an occupation.

Some parts of the Koran will need to be ignored but that's been done in Christianity with the OT, so its not impossible.

"One expert on Islam in France, Antoine Sfeir, said radical foreign imams often found an all too willing audience in France's rundown immigrant suburbs. "The kids there already watch Arab stations on satellite TV, with their bloodthirsty slogans and anti-western propaganda," he said. "They've already been totally radicalised."

The French government should have a look at this as well.

"According to the interior ministry, France's 5 million-strong Muslim community, Europe's largest, is ministered to by between 1,000 and 1,500 imams. Only 10% of them are believed to be citizens, less than half speak French, and "probably a majority" are illegal immigrants".

An amazing stat!!

Other western nations could learn from France but they probably won't act until the problems become more severe, making them more politically safe from the charges of "racism", "Islamophobia", etc.. It's certainly an encouraging sign though!

 

[Grant]

I actually don't know for sure, but knowing how good France is at uncovering extremists and how quickly radical Imams are deported, I would imagine that if there are any Saudi funded mosques in France they are being very closely monitored.

This is a good article on Imams in France:

France to train imams in 'French Islam' | World news | The Guardian



I guess it would depend on what part of the Muslim population was polled. I think that those who live in the poorest suburbs would be more likely to say they've experienced discrimination. The majority of Muslims don't live in those areas anymore, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the latest polls are more positive.

I just noticed that the artcile was from 2004. Any idea on how it's progressing and whether the program was influenced at all by Le Pen?