Terror -- The Uk's New Christmas export

[Mr. Invisible]

Yes, of course I have looked at countless opinion polls. That is why I am so much better informed than you.

The support for terrorism runs to the many tens of millions of people. The percentage who support killing people if they leave Islam is truly staggering.

Can you provide proof?

 

[mbig]

Stop accusing me with your lies of me intentionally decieveing people

For the record...
That's two [necessarily] token ContentLESS replies in a row by you in response to my disecting your "most are not Terrorist/extremist" claim.
While I gave meaning to the words and numbers.

Again, for everyone else see:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/87827-terror-uks-new-christmas-export-15.html#post1059171018
and for Mr Invisible, see if you can come up with an on topic reply instead of the empty bait "Calm down".

 

[Grant]

1.


Also, when one looks at 18th and 19th century colonialism, was that not done also, though not entirely, in the name of the Christian God? And yes, there is Christian terrorism, here and here as well.

But of course the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and 18th century colonialism are history and is not going on today. If you are trying to justify Islamic terrorism today by using analogies of a thousand years ago than you are as crazy as the Muslim terrorists themselves.

2-4. Islam does not stand for "terrorism, intolerance, anti education, indifference to human rights, and so on" only someone like yourself who has the tools to educate themselves on Islam, but does not want to learn about it so they can stay ignorant would like to say that. You refuse to acknowledge that only an extremely small percentage of Muslims are extremists, as can be seen here and here, you even have Fox News saying that most Muslims reject extremism. Please actually read up and discuss Islam with people before coming on a forum and trying to talk about something which you know next to nothing about, or just watch

There is no Islamic "intellectual class". None. Despite their numbers they have been virtually excluded from Nobel prizes, for example. They have contributed nothing of worth towards the advancement of any scientific studies for the last several hundred years. This is a tragedy of epic proportions. Had these people been free from the yolk of Islam, had been able to read different books, to study different philosophies, they might have advanced their cultures as much as the Jews, for example, advanced theirs.

 

[Arcana XV]

and the problem with statistics has to do with the way they are framed, and the intended effect of the agenda behind it. If one wants to send a feel good message, then the statistics might include only those who have actually participated in terrorist camps. By referring to that particular number as the limitation on the number of "extremists", however, the person who does so is indulging in quite a dishonest slight of hand. This is a familiar M.O. among apologists whose agenda it is to paint a false picture since it does not account for the number of Muslims who are actually supportive of terrorism, the number who share the same objectives as the terrorists in regards to the establishment of a totalitarian belief system as law, nor the number of Muslims who adhere to such archly conservative belief systems as to be considered an extremist were they only a native French (or British) person.

It's the double standards that people create when they define the word "extremist" that is so indicative of an agenda at work. The same people who find it easy to lambaste any of our American hate preachers defend attitudes many times more severe as long as those attitudes arise from within Islam, and this is particularly common among those from the U.K. Their staggaring hypocrisy is a function of their own racism -- in this case, reverse racism -- where they are incapable of establishing a world view based upon consistant principles, but simply put their finger to the air to check the prevailing wind direction when it comes to orthodoxy. WHO advocates something is all that matters rather than what is being advocated.

What is extremism?

You won't find much of that PC crap in France. We're talking about the country that arrests people on simple hearsay or suspicion of terrorist association reminiscent of that six degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon game.

 

[paris]

Not statistics, per se. I don'think there are any statistics as to the estimated number of Islamic terrorists per country. It's just that I've read a lot of reports over the past few years about international terrorism and they all point to France being the European country that is best able to handle the problem most efficiently.

I remember one interview with a terrorism expert who said that French Muslims were particularly difficult to recruit into the global Jihad. Which is not to say that they can't be recruited for domestic terrorism. They absolutely can. In fact, when French Muslims join terror groups, more often than not, they are groups primarily focused on targeting France. I wish I could find that interview again, but I haven't been able to. It was quite a while ago, so things may have changed somewhat, although I don't see any evidence of such at this time.

France has got the largest Muslim population in Europe, estimated at over 5 million people. Olivier Roy, a French political sciences and sociology expert who specializes in political Islam, estimates the number of actual Jihadists in France at around 1000. Very few end up on the news in the context of international Jihad. Given the large number of Muslims in France, their social difficulties in a country that still treats them as outsiders and the general anti-muslim momentum in the West, you'd think that they would be front and center on the global terrorism scene and yet they're not. Paris or Marseille should be the European "hubs" for global terrorism, not London.

That said, the reason why terrorism is kept so well under control in France may have a lot to do with the country's superbly efficient counter-terrorism units. A system that other countries don't dare put in place for fear of being in clear violation of civil liberties, France has not hesitated to implement it. It clearly works. France has very little chance of ever becoming a terrorism haven. They've just gotten too good at nipping it all in the bud.

Some links that may be of interest:

BBC NEWS | Europe | French jihadis thrive on alienation

France and Its Muslims | Foreign Affairs

Islamic terrorism in Europe: After Van Gogh | The Economist

Fighting Terrorism: Lessons from France - TIME

Yes to the efficient counter-terrorism units (we even have specialised magistrates here as was Jean-Louis Bruguière); but at the risk of offering a different opinion I would also like to add that today France entertains far better relationships with countries succeptible to be a terrorists haven than the UK does

 

[julietsm]

How very interesting. I'm afraid I have to ask you to go a little more into specific detail, though, because I'm a little confused at some apparent contradiction in this post. You sate that you're not about to let anything undermine the Constitution, right? The Constitution explicitly protects religion from government interference and, depending on your interpretation, also protects government from religious interference. In this light, how exactly might government go about lawfully banning any religion from American soil? Is there some kind of loophole I may be missing? Was an amendment passed that would make what you propose doable?

Not only do I think you're absurdly wrong in your analysis of the American people's desire for more government interference in their private lives, especially into the religious sphere, I also think your wish of ever being able to ban a religion in the US is utterly impossible. And the reason why it's impossible is because the very Constitution you speak of will not allow it. So, good luck to you and your misguided little group, but your chances of success are pretty much close to nil.

Islam cannot use OUR democracy against US endlessly...
Just because islamists claim that their joke of a quran constitutes a 'religion' doesn't make it so.
There will come a day when islam will no longer be able to shelter under the word 'religion'. And that day is coming soon... I am an activist for Act! for America and that is number one on our agenda.
Our numbers are growing rapidly and we are making a LOT OF NOISE in Washington. We have members of Congress on our side and it's only a matter of time.
Islam is no different then Nazism, it just pretends to be.
It is seditious and evil and no different than satanism.
It will be out and it's adherants will be out too... It's only a matter of time. We don't have a death wish here in the US, and although these terrorist front groups like CAIR have been feeding taqiyya to our government, people are wising up.
AND OSAMA WILL BE OUT IN LESS THAN TWO YEARS.

 

[gunner]

and the problem with statistics has to do with the way they are framed, and the intended effect of the agenda behind it. If one wants to send a feel good message, then the statistics might include only those who have actually participated in terrorist camps. By referring to that particular number as the limitation on the number of "extremists", however, the person who does so is indulging in quite a dishonest slight of hand. This is a familiar M.O. among apologists whose agenda it is to paint a false picture since it does not account for the number of Muslims who are actually supportive of terrorism, the number who share the same objectives as the terrorists in regards to the establishment of a totalitarian belief system as law, nor the number of Muslims who adhere to such archly conservative belief systems as to be considered an extremist were they only a native French (or British) person.

It's the double standards that people create when they define the word "extremist" that is so indicative of an agenda at work. The same people who find it easy to lambaste any of our American hate preachers defend attitudes many times more severe as long as those attitudes arise from within Islam, and this is particularly common among those from the U.K. Their staggaring hypocrisy is a function of their own racism -- in this case, reverse racism -- where they are incapable of establishing a world view based upon consistant principles, but simply put their finger to the air to check the prevailing wind direction when it comes to orthodoxy. WHO advocates something is all that matters rather than what is being advocated.

What is extremism?

Your point on statistics works both ways. But, statistical evidence in whatever guise should be of little concern to someone, like yourself. Considering you have very little comprehension of how UK society operates you need to at least offer some kind of evidence. The pattern in your posts amount to little more than abstruse lexicon. Constantly suggesting the UK [other than the Islamists themselves] in anyway supports any kind of radical Islam, without providing evidence gives no validity to your argument.

Paul

 

[gunner]

Yes to the efficient counter-terrorism units (we even have specialised magistrates here as was Jean-Louis Bruguière); but at the risk of offering a different opinion I would also like to add that today France entertains far better relationships with countries succeptible to be a terrorists haven than the UK does

Its no surprise France enjoys better relations considering they were a far less prominent actor in the 'coalition'.

Paul

 

[Gardener]

Your point on statistics works both ways. But, statistical evidence in whatever guise should be of little concern to someone, like yourself. Considering you have very little comprehension of how UK society operates you need to at least offer some kind of evidence. The pattern in your posts amount to little more than abstruse lexicon. Constantly suggesting the UK [other than the Islamists themselves] in anyway supports any kind of radical Islam, without providing evidence gives no validity to your argument.



Paul

Pray tell -- what is this "someone like yourself" all about?

 

[gunner]

Pray tell -- what is this "someone like yourself" all about?

You can lead a horse to water....

Someone who rarely [almost never] backs up their claim by offering empirical-qualitative or quantitative evidence.

Paul

 

[Gardener]

You can lead a horse to water....

Someone who rarely [almost never] backs up their claim by offering empirical-qualitative or quantitative evidence.

Paul

For one who makes such demands as you do, I'm rather startled by the complete lack of such on your part. Have you EVER sourced any of your opinions?

I have sourced various Pew reports on many, many occasions. The willfulness you display by way of ignoring them in favor of your continuous beliggerence show that you really aren't interested in reading them.

Why is it that those who are most belligerent by way of making demands are the least likely to provide anything, themselves?

 

[julietsm]

Looks to me like you are anti Muslim instead of anti Islamist.

Islamism is the term for the more aggressive strain of Islam that has been politicized. The Islamists want Islamic law to prevail. An example of the Islamists would be the Mullahs in Iran, and yes, they should be denounced for the totalitarians they are. So should those who support the brutal legal system. In some Muslim areas, there are huge numbers of Islamists and I get fed up with the dishonest apologists who seek to deny this. That doen't mean all of Islam is evil, though, since just as Iran has its totalitarian Mullahs, it also has its green revolution -- people who are Muslim, but are also modern and forward thinking.


Between the hard leftists like some seen here who attack anybody who doesn't toe the politically correct line when it comes to apologia for Islamists, and the fundie right like yourself who would alienate all Muslims, there just seems to be few sensible people in the middle who are alarmed at the Islmism and do view it as a threat, but who also think we should be working together with moderate and liberal Muslims in regards to facing down this threat. As far as I'm concerned, the very BEST way to diffuse the threat of Islamism would be to show those like the courageous Muslims in the Green revolution that we support them.

All you are doing is acting just like the Islamists when it comes to the rejection of anything that doeasn't fit your narrow agenda.

Think what you like, but I am against ISLAM.
Have you read the quran and the hadith? I don't claim to be a scholar, but to be a 'good muslim' you have to be a terrible person! All of the 'peaceful' verses in the quran have been abrogated by the violent ones... So this is the dilemna.
There is also taqiyya to be regarded here; can we really know what another is thinking?
I think Islam is a virulent evil to be wiped out. But I would never dream of doing anything to hurt muslims. I am as passive as a person can be.
Have you read any of the history of Islamic Imperialism? Have you read the Muslim Mafia? They are feeding us hot, steaming cups of taqiyaa to placate us while planning our utter demise.
Any 'religion' that advocates genocide is a book on the level of Mein Kamf - which incidentally is the same thing 'jihad' means.
I don't know what the answer is. I want America to be a haven for muslims who want to excape the tyranny in their homelands, but not a haven for terrorists who build mosques and recruit jihadists right under our noses.
That is sedition, plain and simple. The islamists want all the Jews and Christians dead dead dead.
I think a lot of people have misplaced sympathies - for example those who think CAIR is a benevolent organisation. Where is the sympathy for those who died at the hands of jihadists?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRmgI_WXff0

I don't hate muslims.
BUT I HATE ISLAM.

 

[julietsm]

WOW THAT WAS COMPLETE AND TOTAL BS LOL

I love how you COMPLETELY IGNORE Christian atrocities (not to say that all religions have not committed atrocities).

YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE BEING INTOLERANT AND AS WELL AS SO IGNORANT OF ISLAM THAT THEY PISS THEIR PANTS WHEN SOMEONE MENTIONS THE WORD MUSLIM OR ISLAM.

I honestly think that you need to actually read up on Islam and talk to people who are actually Muslims before embarrassing yourself, showing how little you know about Islam. Also I am shocked that you even have THE AUDACITY to say that you are insulted by the very existence of Muslims. That's not very CHRISTIAN now is it?

That is ALL I DO LATELY.
And there is just no way you can compare any other religioin with islam, which actually orders it's adherants to kill in the name of allah.
All other religions on earth try to make better people of it's adherants, but not so with islam!
IT ORDERS THEM TO BE MURDERERS.
I am too tired to post the list, but for the last year I have read about two books a week on islam, so I do think I know what I am talking about.

 

[julietsm]

What you may or may not believe about any given religion is completely irrelevant. Your personal belief, opinion or prejudice does not change the fact that what you are proposing is unconstitutional and does not have a legal leg to stand on. Islam may have a political dimension, but as long as the US Constitution is still the primary law of the land no single religion will ever have the power to take over the government.



So? I fail to see your point. There are people using guns all over the world and terrorizing others with them. Are we now supposed to ban guns because they may be misused by some?



Again, so? Improve your counter-terrorism techniques and fight the problem the lawful way. Banning a religion because it may be used to justify terror is as ridiculous as banning guns because they may be used by criminals. Additionally, I fail to see how banning the religion will prevent terrorists from striking regardless. You are tackling the issue from completely the wrong angle. You are as utterly misguided as those who try to ban guns thinking that will keep them safe.



As I've said in my previous post, good luck trying to fundamentally change the US Constitution.

ALL ONE HAS TO DO TO KNOW THAT ISLAM IS NO RELIGION IS TO LOOK AT THE ACTIONS OF ISLAMISTS.
And fyi, there is nothing about 'love' in the quran, expect perhaps for the 'love of death for allah'.
Every other religion on earth makes (or tries to make) better people of it's adherants.
I see nothing of value in the quran and there are hundreds of thousands of people who think as I do. As a member of Act! for America I am doing everything I can to educate the dhimmis and useful idiots, who apparently will only wake up when it's their turn for head removal.
Perhaps right now my beliefs are mere 'opinions', but when America sees that the terrorism ISN'T STOPPING and starts infiltrating the hate-filled mosques (the way they did with CAIR -with stunning success - read the Muslim Mafia) believe me, islam will be denounced for the murderous, mysogynistic, hateful, genocidal-minded homicidal maniacal non 'religion' that it is.
As soon as we get Dictator Osama out of the White House.
There are plenty of Americans who 'get the picture'.

IF WE HAD AN AMERICAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO WAS A PATRIOT, CAIR AND THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WOULD BE OUT OUT OUT.
...It's coming.

All one has to do to know what is on islamist's minds is to watch their television programs; which promote jihad and suicide bombings and every other revolting thing that islam stands for.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

That is ALL I DO LATELY.
And there is just no way you can compare any other religioin with islam, which actually orders it's adherants to kill in the name of allah.
All other religions on earth try to make better people of it's adherants, but not so with islam!
IT ORDERS THEM TO BE MURDERERS.
I am too tired to post the list, but for the last year I have read about two books a week on islam, so I do think I know what I am talking about.

I really think that you don't know what you are talking about. Also, can I have the names of the book you read.

 

[julietsm]

Actually, in biblical times slavery was a way for a person to 'work off their debts'. It was useful.
That doesn't mean that it promotes slavery NOW. The Old Testament is a history of the Jews.
I keep trying to get all the way through the quran, but I keep getting sick to my stomach. One of these days I will get there...

And YOU are the MOST INTOLERANT people on the planet!
You HATE EVERYTHING THAT IS NON-ISLAMIC.

Jesus actually told us to 'love our enemies'. You got anything like that in the quran?

Didn't think so.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

Actually, in biblical times slavery was a way for a person to 'work off their debts'. It was useful.
That doesn't mean that it promotes slavery NOW. The Old Testament is a history of the Jews.
I keep trying to get all the way through the quran, but I keep getting sick to my stomach. One of these days I will get there...

And YOU are the MOST INTOLERANT people on the planet!
You HATE EVERYTHING THAT IS NON-ISLAMIC.

Jesus actually told us to 'love our enemies'. You got anything like that in the quran?

Didn't think so.

Proof? Of anything that you just wrote?

Proof that I am intolerant and that I hate everything non-Islamic?

As well as that the Koran does not have anything in it that says to love enemies?

 

[Arcana XV]

Islam cannot use OUR democracy against US endlessly...
Just because islamists claim that their joke of a quran constitutes a 'religion' doesn't make it so.

Your claims that it is not a religion doesn't make it so.

There will come a day when islam will no longer be able to shelter under the word 'religion'. And that day is coming soon... I am an activist for Act! for America and that is number one on our agenda.
Our numbers are growing rapidly and we are making a LOT OF NOISE in Washington. We have members of Congress on our side and it's only a matter of time.

Doesn't it worry you that these Congressmen you speak of have clearly no understanding of, nor any respect for the US Constitution? Oh wait, neither do you. Never mind, then.

Islam is no different then Nazism, it just pretends to be.
It is seditious and evil and no different than satanism.

Satanism is a recognised religion, protected under the 1st Amendment.

It will be out and it's adherants will be out too... It's only a matter of time. We don't have a death wish here in the US, and although these terrorist front groups like CAIR have been feeding taqiyya to our government, people are wising up.

Okay. How do you plan on going about amending the Constitution inorder to justify banning some religions but not others? Or is it just making noise you're interested in? Noise isn't going to get you very far, you know.

AND OSAMA WILL BE OUT IN LESS THAN TWO YEARS.

Who?

 

[Arcana XV]

ALL ONE HAS TO DO TO KNOW THAT ISLAM IS NO RELIGION IS TO LOOK AT THE ACTIONS OF ISLAMISTS.

That's like saying that all I have to do to know that Chsitianity is a joke is to look at the actions of Fred Phelps and his gang of thugs. Cool. I'll do that from now on. From this day forward I declare that the Westboro Baptist Church holds primary representation of all of Christianity on Earth. This is fun! :roll:

And fyi, there is nothing about 'love' in the quran, expect perhaps for the 'love of death for allah'.

What does love have to do with anything?

Every other religion on earth makes (or tries to make) better people of it's adherants.
I see nothing of value in the quran and there are hundreds of thousands of people who think as I do. As a member of Act! for America I am doing everything I can to educate the dhimmis and useful idiots, who apparently will only wake up when it's their turn for head removal.
Perhaps right now my beliefs are mere 'opinions', but when America sees that the terrorism ISN'T STOPPING and starts infiltrating the hate-filled mosques (the way they did with CAIR -with stunning success - read the Muslim Mafia) believe me, islam will be denounced for the murderous, mysogynistic, hateful, genocidal-minded homicidal maniacal non 'religion' that it is.

You can't fight terrorism by banning Islam. Just like you can't fight crime by banning guns. Not to mention, again, that you need a constitutional amendment that will make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves at phenomenal speed.

As soon as we get Dictator Osama out of the White House.

Who?

There are plenty of Americans who 'get the picture'.

IF WE HAD AN AMERICAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO WAS A PATRIOT, CAIR AND THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WOULD BE OUT OUT OUT.
...It's coming.

All one has to do to know what is on islamist's minds is to watch their television programs; which promote jihad and suicide bombings and every other revolting thing that islam stands for.

:beam:

 

[julietsm]

I really think that you don't know what you are talking about. Also, can I have the names of the book you read.

Considering that you think I am ignorant, clearly, why should I do all that work for you?
I will toss out a few titles of the books that are scattered about my living room, but that's it. I am far too busy to work for you, I have enough work thank you very much.

Godless Ann Coulter
The Quran
Because They Hate Brigitte Gabriel (the founder of Act! for America)
Islamic Imperialism Efraim Karsh
Islam Unveiled David Pryce-Jones
The Muslim Brotherhood Sperry/Gaubatz
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam Robert Spencer
They Call Me Infidel Nonie Darwish
They Must be Stopped Brigitte Gabriel
Willful Blindness Andrew C. McCarthy
Infidel Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Militant Islam Reaches America Daniel Pipes
The Post American Presidency Pamela Geller

That's it. I am not listing every single book in my bookshelves!
And just FYI, I am an educated person who worked on death penalty cases during my working career, not a McDonald's employee.
I can tell you THIS: I am very busy and the that is the last work I am doing for you!

 

[julietsm]

That's like saying that all I have to do to know that Chsitianity is a joke is to look at the actions of Fred Phelps and his gang of thugs. Cool. I'll do that from now on. From this day forward I declare that the Westboro Baptist Church holds primary representation of all of Christianity on Earth. This is fun! :roll:

There are NOT Christian terrorists commiting atrocities all over the world. You cannot deny that islam has an agenda. It is anti-west, anti-democracy, anti-freedom for women... Sorry, islamists comprise the sum and total of jihadists worldwide. "Allahu Akbar" is the most revolting thing I have ever heard, when shouted over some poor beheaded guy's body. There are no Christians who do that.



What does love have to do with anything?

Love has everything to do with everything.
Where there is no love, what have you got?
Hatred? Indifference?
These are not good things, as if I had to point it out, which I clearly did.


You can't fight terrorism by banning Islam. Just like you can't fight crime by banning guns. Not to mention, again, that you need a constitutional amendment that will make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves at phenomenal speed.

It's a start. There are mosques all over the US teaching the violent overthrow of our nation and recruiting jihadists. So it's a start.



Who?

Why are you playing coy? You know very well whom it is that sits in the WH. I just get Obama and Osama mixed up all the time; apparently they have the same agenda.
THIS is where political correctness got us in the US, with a DICTATOR who does whatever he wants.
He funneled off 23 million in taxpayer money to his cousin the despot in Kenya, to implement sharia law there. Kenya has less than 12% muslim population.



:beam:

So, you think sharia is a good thing? You think that FGM is a good thing? You think terrorism is a good thing? You think that the slaughter of innocents is a good thing?
<shudders>
What, exactly, is your point?

 

[julietsm]

So, you think sharia is a good thing? You think that FGM is a good thing? You think terrorism is a good thing? You think that the slaughter of innocents is a good thing?
<shudders>
What, exactly, is your point?

And btw, the Founding Fathers would jump out of their graves and say "Hallelujah!"

 

[Manc Skipper]

So, you think sharia is a good thing? You think that FGM is a good thing? You think terrorism is a good thing? You think that the slaughter of innocents is a good thing?
<shudders>
What, exactly, is your point?

One could ask the same of you, since only Sharia, of the items you list, is unique to Islam.

 

[julietsm]

One could ask the same of you, since only Sharia, of the items you list, is unique to Islam.

Well Gee, I don't know a single Christian that has had FGM performed on them.
I don't know about any terrorists aside from Islamists screaming "Alahu Ahkbar".
...And sharia is enough of a reason to throw the quran in the toilet.
It's barbaric and anti-democratic, not to mention that we have OUR OWN RELIGIONS IN THE WEST AND ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT THE ISLAMISTS HAVE TO SELL.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Well Gee, I don't know a single Christian that has had FGM performed on them.
I don't know about any terrorists aside from Islamists screaming "Alahu Ahkbar".
...And sharia is enough of a reason to throw the quran in the toilet.
It's barbaric and anti-democratic, not to mention that we have OUR OWN RELIGIONS IN THE WEST AND ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT THE ISLAMISTS HAVE TO SELL.

Your lacking knowledge is not a measure of reality.