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Terror -- The Uk's New Christmas export (1 Viewer)

The government of course started wetting it's pants and allowed new laws to be passed keeping Muslims in jail for a substantial time without trial. There has also been much criticism of many of the other government projects.
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It's significant that Geert Wilders is basically living under a shadow of death without any real noise made by liberal-leftists. Yet when terrorists were held in custody under tough new laws because the Islamocracker threat was stretching the resources, they went mad. They don't help Europe, they really don't!

Wilders single-handedly began to question all the political correctness and gave up his own freedom (he has a fatwa on his head and must sleep in prison cells, army barracks, safe houses, etc.) to tell the Netherlands, and hence, the world, what fundamentalist Islam is really doing in the West.



Here you find people with poor self worth, usually poor sense of who they are and frequently lacking in a Muslim upbringing.
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So THAT'S why these scumballs go off the rails! It's NOT because they're vernimous little criminals who know nothing else... THEY WEREN'T BROUGHT UP IN THE WAYS OF LOVELY ISLAM! The fact that Muslims force other inmates to convert has NOTHING to do with it I suppose!

You get sick of hearing excuses, excuses usually denied normal people for bad behaviour on a far smaller scale. You get sick of liberals saying everything other than 'They're responsible for their own actions'.

Sometimes you're lost for all but a few coarse words, you really are! No wonder I was chastised in post 43, if that's all they can say as to why so many prison inmates turn to Islam and strive to become bombers and fifth-columnists themselves!
 
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That doesn't square with the claims of the Luton mosque people, who said 'Ooooooo, we knew he was a bad-un'!

And considering that Islamic extremism is so pitched that even people in LABOUR had to go and ask them to monitor their kids, you'd think at least SOME people would ring in.

After all, even TV's Crimewatch gets at least a handful of calls per case, even if they are dead ends.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
That doesn't square with the claims of the Luton mosque people, who said 'Ooooooo, we knew he was a bad-un'!

And considering that Islamic extremism is so pitched that even people in LABOUR had to go and ask them to monitor their kids, you'd think at least SOME people would ring in.

After all, even TV's Crimewatch gets at least a handful of calls per case, even if they are dead ends.
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What if they are being cautious because if they do tip off they might think that someone may falsely be arrested. Either way you shouldn't claim you know or can use this as a source of Muslims being evil people like you love to claim. There are much too many "ifs" involved in this scenario.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
All talk and no trousers:

Muslims in bomber's town get £500,000 to combat terror... but don't give one tip-off | Mail Online


How do you expect us to think about the 'moderate' Muslims when they don't even help themselves?!
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Are you complaining that £500,000 was given but not taken? Or that the local Govt gave the money to the following -
  • £129,000 had been awarded to a theatre company
  • £79,000 for sports coaching
  • £20,000 for fashion courses
  • £20,000 to art workshops in areas with large Muslim communities.

Looks like Local Govt waste at a time we cannot afford it - and apparently a lot of money only went to Labour areas. None of the groups the Govt wanted to give the money to actually accepted the money because "If we had taken the money our members would have seen us as working for the Government. The young men with radical views would not have listened to us"

The last bit makes a whole lot of sense if you're trying to deal with radicals.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
That doesn't square with the claims of the Luton mosque people, who said 'Ooooooo, we knew he was a bad-un'!

And considering that Islamic extremism is so pitched that even people in LABOUR had to go and ask them to monitor their kids, you'd think at least SOME people would ring in.

After all, even TV's Crimewatch gets at least a handful of calls per case, even if they are dead ends.
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You didn't read your own link - none of the mosques took any money. I posted above where the money apparently went.
 
"If we had taken the money our members would have seen us as working for the Government. The young men with radical views would not have listened to us"
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So much for pious whining about a 'them and us' attitude stifling things like Islamic integration.

Accepting cash for luxury projects in the teeth of a recession is anything other than a marker of 'working' for the Government!

Just how paranoid are these people!?




You didn't read your own link - none of the mosques took any money.
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I never claimed they did. Closed ranks was my inferrence.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
Just how paranoid are these people!?
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Considering all the recent hate for Muslims I don't think it is paranoia but reality. Intolerance for Muslims and Homosexuals is the normality in America, not realizing that is ignorant and not wanting to fight that is hateful.
 
Now that's inverted logic at its best.


Muslims fearing that they are BETRAYING the fundamentalists to the Government is why there hasn't been a single tip off then. And those Muslim groups saying the extremists won't listen to them shows at least they know they are around them if not actually who they are.

So much for the 'peaceful' Muslims against terrorism so much that they'll do anything to help! And the more they bellyache about not being liked, with Liberals queueing up to endorse whatever they say, the less and less of an impact they on people out there in the real world.
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
Now that's inverted logic at its best.


Muslims fearing that they are BETRAYING the fundamentalists to the Government is why there hasn't been a single tip off then. And those Muslim groups saying the extremists won't listen to them shows at least they know they are around them if not actually who they are.

So much for the 'peaceful' Muslims against terrorism so much that they'll do anything to help! And the more they bellyache about not being liked, with Liberals queueing up to endorse whatever they say, the less and less of an impact they on people out there in the real world.
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Can you blame them for not wanting to help the government? The same government that is decimating Middle Eastern countries and blaming the Muslims for starting it? I don't want to help the government but I especially wouldn't if I was a Muslim. I am sure they do want to stop terrorism. IF anything it hurts the Muslims the most. Bellyache? Like it is just some minor issue that Muslims are treated like trash and hated by a large amount of the population?
 
WeAreReborn said:
Considering all the recent hate for Muslims I don't think it is paranoia but reality. Intolerance for Muslims and Homosexuals is the normality in America, not realizing that is ignorant and not wanting to fight that is hateful.
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Are you saying Muslims are homosexuals? I didn't realize that.
 
Islamic Centre chairman Qadeer Baksh said: ‘The reason we didn’t take the Government money for the Preventing Violent Extremism scheme is that it requires us to inform on fellow Muslims.

‘If we had taken the money our members would have seen us as working for the Government. The young men with radical views would not have listened to us.
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No one took the money.

Look, the Luton Mosque thing is being blown out of proportion. Many are criticising the Imam for not shipping him to the police but at the time, he made a judgement call.
The individual made no references to killing civilians, bombing anyone, justified bombing anyone. Infact all he was going on about was the presence of foreign soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Mosque stated as much. If he had said he thought it was okay to kill civilians or hinted he would, then the police would have been phoned but criticising the Government for its foreign policy.
That is not grounds to tell on a fellow citizen to the police, it may ruin their lives and all they were doing was blowing off steam and many do blow off steam and air their views in the Mosque and that is a good thing.
If all Mosques and Imams are seen as in the pocket of the Government, then they will no longer go Mosque losing potential guidance and a close eye from their fellow Muslims who also go and instead will go underground

Hindsight is a wonderful but the Imam did nothing wrong at the time of the event imo. He challenged the bombers view, he corrected him infront of everyone and then he left.
 
Laila said:
Islamic Centre chairman Qadeer Baksh said: ‘The reason we didn’t take the Government money for the Preventing Violent Extremism scheme is that it requires us to inform on fellow Muslims.

‘If we had taken the money our members would have seen us as working for the Government. The young men with radical views would not have listened to us.
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No one took the money.

Look, the Luton Mosque thing is being blown out of proportion. Many are criticising the Imam for not shipping him to the police but at the time, he made a judgement call.
The individual made no references to killing civilians, bombing anyone, justified bombing anyone. Infact all he was going on about was the presence of foreign soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Mosque stated as much. If he had said he thought it was okay to kill civilians or hinted he would, then the police would have been phoned but criticising the Government for its foreign policy.
That is not grounds to tell on a fellow citizen to the police, it may ruin their lives and all they were doing was blowing off steam and many do blow off steam and air their views in the Mosque and that is a good thing.
If all Mosques and Imams are seen as in the pocket of the Government, then they will no longer go Mosque losing potential guidance and a close eye from their fellow Muslims who also go and instead will go underground

Hindsight is a wonderful but the Imam did nothing wrong at the time of the event imo. He challenged the bombers view, he corrected him infront of everyone and then he left.
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It seems to me, Laila, that there are two issues being raised by the Imam.

First is the issue of accepting money and losing credibility with radicalized youth or even pre-radicalized youth. This is entirely understandable. Imams require maintaining their neutrality so that they are approachable as religious leaders.

Second, however, is his statement that he objects to being forced to inform on fellow Muslims. Now, the question is, in the absence of money, when knowledge about who is radicalizing reaches him, is he willing to inform on a fellow Muslim? It is one big intelligence game and the Imam will not know who has radicalized to the degree that they will take action, but those who have radicalized need to be identified by the government so that they can be investigated, especially if there is a group formed. If the Imam refuses to turn in those radicalized, and the general Muslim population also refuses to inform, then they are implicit in any actions taken and Britain has a very BIG problem.

When will someone from inside the Muslim community stand up against this radicalization? crickets....
 
reefedjib said:
It seems to me, Laila, that there are two issues being raised by the Imam.

First is the issue of accepting money and losing credibility with radicalized youth or even pre-radicalized youth. This is entirely understandable. Imams require maintaining their neutrality so that they are approachable as religious leaders.

Second, however, is his statement that he objects to being forced to inform on fellow Muslims. Now, the question is, in the absence of money, when knowledge about who is radicalizing reaches him, is he willing to inform on a fellow Muslim? It is one big intelligence game and the Imam will not know who has radicalized to the degree that they will take action, but those who have radicalized need to be identified by the government so that they can be investigated, especially if there is a group formed. If the Imam refuses to turn in those radicalized, and the general Muslim population also refuses to inform, then they are implicit in any actions taken and Britain has a very BIG problem.

When will someone from inside the Muslim community stand up against this radicalization? crickets....
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Should Muslims hand over names to the police for just disagreeing with Government's foreign policy (because that is what this individual did at Luton Mosque).
He never stated that citizens should die, that murder is acceptable, never praised extremism.

If that is really the criteria. I'd be on that list and would have been on it since the Iraq war because I'd qualify as suspect
Why should innocent people be handed over to the oh so trustworthy hands of our intelligence services for just expressing opinion?

The Imam should inform if there is a credible risk to people both Muslim and Non Muslim. The Mosque stated as much. If people start discussing how killing innocents is acceptable. They inform the police of the individual and British Muslims have prevented terror attacks by helping the police by tipping off suspects
 
Many are criticising the Imam for not shipping him to the police but at the time, he made a judgement call.
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A negligent and mindful 'judgement' which compounds Islam's 'image problem'. Thier own above Britain's security! If the BNP aren't supposed to be British then what are they?!



Should Muslims hand over names to the police for just disagreeing with Government's foreign policy (because that is what this individual did at Luton Mosque).
He never stated that citizens should die, that murder is acceptable, never praised extremism.
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I might refuse to hand over any information I could know about local criminals because I disagree with Government judicial policy! The excuses made just get flimsier and flimsier.

Such peaceful Muslims may not get up to any bother themselves but the evidence grows that they certainly stand by when it happens from others and aren't shy of 'understanding'!
 
Laila said:
Should Muslims hand over names to the police for just disagreeing with Government's foreign policy (because that is what this individual did at Luton Mosque).
He never stated that citizens should die, that murder is acceptable, never praised extremism.

If that is really the criteria. I'd be on that list and would have been on it since the Iraq war because I'd qualify as suspect
Why should innocent people be handed over to the oh so trustworthy hands of our intelligence services for just expressing opinion?

The Imam should inform if there is a credible risk to people both Muslim and Non Muslim. The Mosque stated as much. If people start discussing how killing innocents is acceptable. They inform the police of the individual and British Muslims have prevented terror attacks by helping the police by tipping off suspects
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Ok, I totally agree. Merely disagreeing with the government is not sufficient cause to be reported.

When a group of individuals organize to disagree, they should start being monitored. In the US we have radicalized groups (anarchists, environmentalists, etc) that plan disruptions and have used bombs in the past. I think it is probably the same in the UK. It is very hard to gain intel on these groups, however.

Why do you say that it is the "oh so trustworthy" hands of the intelligence services? Are they suspect?

It is very good that Muslims have reported problems.
 
reefedjib said:
Why do you say that it is the "oh so trustworthy" hands of the intelligence services? Are they suspect?
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I can't speak for her, but intelligence agencies like the CIA and former NKVD don't exactly have a good record of human rights or fair trials is all.
 
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reefedjib said:
Ok, I totally agree. Merely disagreeing with the government is not sufficient cause to be reported.

When a group of individuals organize to disagree, they should start being monitored. In the US we have radicalized groups (anarchists, environmentalists, etc) that plan disruptions and have used bombs in the past. I think it is probably the same in the UK. It is very hard to gain intel on these groups, however.

Why do you say that it is the "oh so trustworthy" hands of the intelligence services? Are they suspect?

It is very good that Muslims have reported problems.
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If you agree that disagreeing is not cause to report. Why should Luton Mosque gain any flack for not reporting for doing just that :shrug:

No doubt groups of extremists are monitored.
But the likelihood of gaining intel is small as it would require a Muslim going undercover.
Like James Bond but less cool ;)

Meh. Pockets of Muslim community in areas of UK and its relationship with the Authorities are building but distrust is high on both sides. I am not a fan of the police or UK authorities but I wouldn't hesitate to report if I knew something. I'd just try and do it without getting my name attached to it.
The distrust is understandable depending on which areas of UK we are discussing especially after the saga of the shooting and dislike of Police is not limited to Muslims but also ethnic minorities who have had problems with the police.
 
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The problem is the religion itself as with all religions.When people talk about fundamentalism you may as well say people who really believe it.
 
mikhail said:
The problem is the religion itself as with all religions.When people talk about fundamentalism you may as well say people who really believe it.
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What do you mean when you say those who 'really believe it'?
 
well if you took the koran or bible and actually followed them word for word you would be in prison within a week.
 
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