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Supreme Court rejects Trump effort to block Manhattan prosecutors from getting tax records

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Air Muscle
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Well, this is definitely going to give Trump heartburn. If it comes to anything or not is up to the grand jury

www.nbcnews.com

Supreme Court won't stop grand jury from getting Trump's tax returns

The decision is a decisive defeat in Trump's prolonged legal battle to keep his tax records out of the hands of investigators.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

The U.S. Supreme Court declined Monday to block a New York grand jury from getting President Donald Trump's personal and corporate tax returns, a decisive defeat in his prolonged legal battle to keep his tax records out of the hands of investigators.

The ruling does not mean the returns will become public any time soon, and they might never be publicly released. Under state law, materials turned over to a grand jury must be kept secret. But Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance can now require Trump's accountants to turn over the records that the president has steadfastly refused to surrender to prosecutors or Congress
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Yeah, there's been enough smoke to find out if there's a fire. Given that he was President, I do think it's in the public interest to find out more, but if they can't find enough evidence to indict, then I suppose I'm not too concerned about the records becoming public.
 
calamity said:
Well...so much for Trump leading the GOP. He'll be too busy fighting an indictment. ...lol
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I wish that were true. It's clear to me that he is above the law and they'd rather let him skate than to have his mob attack the country again.
 
I'm sure Trump has some other phony bologna lawsuit to slow this down.
 
Schadenfreude: It's not just a river in Germany.
 
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
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yet it happens all the time going back to the famous Al Capone case.
 
GolfingChef said:
yet it happens all the time going back to the famous Al Capone case.
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Yep, but Al Capone was found guilty of tax law violations. That is not what this court is up to and they openly admit that.
 
poweRob said:
How many times am I going to hear this same result? I feel like it's been at least 5 times already.
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But this is the last time on this part of the case.
 
Perfect! I also heard that Vance has added a high profile white collar / mob prosecutor to the team investigating Trump and the Trump corporation. Let's hope the Grand Jury hands Vance an indictment would make for great information leading up to 2022 and 2024.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
Click to expand...
Got to disagree, how do you suppose they make RICO cases. Also, you attest to the returns accuracy when you file them, even if your accountant did all the work. A lie on a Federal document gives the feds everything they need to investigate anything claimed on that document.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
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States subpeona federal tax records thousands of times a year to use in prosecuting to state and local tax violations. There is nothing out of the ordinary here other than the persons records requested.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, but Al Capone was found guilty of tax law violations. That is not what this court is up to and they openly admit that.
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Capone was found guilty of tax law violations after the IRS obtained pertinent documents during a criminal investigation.
Michael Cohen provided prosecutors with evidence that Donald Trump has committed tax fraud which was probable cause to warrant a criminal investigation.

Vance is seeking tax returns covering eight years for a grand jury investigation of hush money payments and other financial transactions. The investigation began after it was disclosed that former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen paid Stormy Daniels $130,000 to keep quiet about her claim that she had an affair with Trump, an allegation the former president has denied.
Cohen also alleged to Congress that the Trump organization sometimes lied about its financial condition in order to evade taxes or obtain favorable loan terms.
Also remember that Cohen produced before congress a check to Stormy Daniels signed by Don Jr that was sourced from campaign finance funds.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
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5th amendment doesn’t apply to documentation unless the acquirement of said documentation was done so illegally.

Using your logic, nobody could ever be investigated for tax fraud.
 
mrjurrs said:
Got to disagree, how do you suppose they make RICO cases. Also, you attest to the returns accuracy when you file them, even if your accountant did all the work. A lie on a Federal document gives the feds everything they need to investigate anything claimed on that document.
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I have no problem with holding folks accountable for tax law violations in tax court proceedings. What this court is doing is fishing for alleged tax law violations to ‘prove’ that someone is ‘likely to be guilty’ of violations of other laws.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The problem with this is that it basically compels self-incrimination. Filing federal income tax returns is mandatory and supposedly done for no other purpose than exclusive use by the IRS. This SCOTUS ruling (or lack thereof) seems to make the 16A trump (pun intended) the 5A right to be able to avoid self-incrimination.

I have no problem with allowing IRS to conduct judicial review of allegedly false tax documentation, but to let that information be used for purposes outside of a ‘tax court’ is a step too far.
Click to expand...
Here's the IRC section that lays out the dozens of exceptions for the confidentiality of tax returns. Included is disclosure to states enforcing their own income tax laws, mostly because most states start with federal 'income' and work from there. So state tax authorities have to be able to see the federal return to audit the state return, since the federal return is often the 'source' for income claimed on state returns.

www.law.cornell.edu

26 U.S. Code § 6103 - Confidentiality and disclosure of returns and return information

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

And, yes, people are 'compelled' to produce financial or other information that might incriminate them every day. That's how crimes are discovered and prosecuted. You don't have a right to hide all information that might reveal you committed a crime. That's why they make shredders and magnets to erase hard drives.... ;)
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I have no problem with holding folks accountable for tax law violations in tax court proceedings. What this court is doing is fishing for alleged tax law violations to ‘prove’ that someone is ‘likely to be guilty’ of violations of other laws.
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This court is investigating violations of NEW YORK tax laws, not federal tax laws.
 
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