Student Debt Now Outweighs Credit Card Debt (1 Viewer)

[Dittohead not!]

certainly not equivalent, the veteran should always be the first priority and combat/wounded veterans go to the head of the line...

Combat vets should go to the head of the line. The guys who spent their tour in Germany chasing fraulines and drinking beer, not so much.

 

[Catawba]

Everytime the United States has been attacked, it's had the opportunity to exercise the option of surrender.

Please cite when Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya attacked us?

 

[Mach]

Just look at the top problems of the nation and in your own observations of "life after school".

The average american either takes no responsibility for, or has no education to handle:
1. retirement planning (see social security, employer programs)
2. health insurance/health care (see medicare, medicaid, obama care, employer programs)
3. personal finances
- see student loans
- see the entire mortgage crisis that crippled the world economy

I mean, barring national security, this is apparently front and center to our entire nation. So what are we teaching in say, public education, for 12 years of full-time education about it? We teach them where norway is when today you type "norway wiki". We make them memorize the presidents. We teach them poetry meter.

But after they graduate you have adults in this thread agreeing that students have a lot of "growing up to do" right out of school. Um, what did we do for 12 years fo their life...keep them stunted?

These two things should receive attention in middle school, and be present all four years in high school.

1. Project Management (everything can be a project, from getting a high score in a videogame, to getting laid, to planning an investment, how to graduate, how to study, how to stay healthy, how to work for nearly 99% of companies more effectively, etc.)

2. Personal Finace - i.e. how not to rely on other people for doing the work you have to do to plan your freaking finances.


It's two things. Finance, and management. Without finance they will never know what they need for retirement or health insurance or if to take a loan or not, or whether their interest rate is good or not, if you are on the career track that makes fiscal sense, etc. Without management, they'll never be able to execute what they know. And both, oddly enough, teach a heavy dose of personal responsibility and accountability.

Then maybe we our electorate would start to get a clue. And yeah, it answers the student debt issue to boot. The kicker is if you train them how to do it, and they *still don't*, you are no longer morally on the hook either. You gave them the tools, they flushed them. I know how to diagram sentences though...a semester of that 100% useless BS.

 

[Boo Radley]

mach, do you think a 17-19 year old is fully grown, fully mature?

 

[UtahBill]

mach, do you think a 17-19 year old is fully grown, fully mature?

I have an opinion on that....back in 1963 when I was 17, I was grown and mature enough to enlist in the Navy Reserve while still in High School, and to transfer to the regular Navy the following year.
When your choices are few and you have to go out on your own, you find a way to do it...
IMO, we have taken several steps backwards since those times.

 

[cpwill]

On this we agree! That was my wife's idea years ago, require HS graduates serve their country for a couple years, either in military or civilian service to their country. In return, they get assistance for college if they meet the academic standards.

I couldn't countenance require them to do so; but I think in general the GI Bill has been a pretty positive influence on our military and our populace.

 

[cpwill]

mach, do you think a 17-19 year old is fully grown, fully mature?

I have worked with many 19 year olds who have demonstrated greater maturity and professionalism than many 27 year olds.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I have worked with many 19 year olds who have demonstrated greater maturity and professionalism than many 27 year olds.

People tend to rise or sink to the occassion


Those that cant dislay a sense of maturity and professionalism while in a combat situation, are unlikely to be the ones that last long. For better or for worse

Many 27 year old have not had the requirement to display much in the way of maturity, heck many 40 year old have not either. The ability to hold a job and become a parent will not automatically do it either, but generally help. Being in a life or death situation tends to cause the maturity part to occur quite quickly

 

[cpwill]

truth. sometimes I wonder if we don't suffer for lack of a "boy to manhood" and "girl to womanhood" ritual. You want to go to college? fine, go kill a lion with a spear.

 

[ecofarm]

You might want to hold off on that ritual until about 30. I'm not sure adult and man/woman are the same thing.

 

[Catawba]

I couldn't countenance require them to do so; but I think in general the GI Bill has been a pretty positive influence on our military and our populace.

No one is talking about requiring them to do so. It would be voluntary for those that wished to earn assistance for a college education.

 

[SheWolf]

The worst part is, they think they are smart for having a lot of useless knowledge.
If they were smart, they would be employed. (present recession causes excluded)

Many of those with useless majors will end up joining the useless political party....:roll:

Well, I actually like those subjects, and I don't like they are useless. Sociology often overlaps with psychology, and philosophy overlaps with government, political science, and economics. I kind of wish more people studied philosophy so they understood what socialism and communism really are. Also, philosophy like Hume and Locke played a large role in the founding of America... worthwhile stuff IMO.

 

[Dittohead not!]

truth. sometimes I wonder if we don't suffer for lack of a "boy to manhood" and "girl to womanhood" ritual. You want to go to college? fine, go kill a lion with a spear.

I think we might run out of lions pretty quickly. Perhaps an outward bound sort of experience would be more practical.

 

[Boo Radley]

I have worked with many 19 year olds who have demonstrated greater maturity and professionalism than many 27 year olds.

And the other way around. But that wasn't my question. Are they full grown?

 

[Boo Radley]

I have an opinion on that....back in 1963 when I was 17, I was grown and mature enough to enlist in the Navy Reserve while still in High School, and to transfer to the regular Navy the following year.
When your choices are few and you have to go out on your own, you find a way to do it...
IMO, we have taken several steps backwards since those times.

Perhaps, but those step backwards, reasonableor not, good or not, do create a reality. Women, for example, used to have chidlren younger than they do today overall. Married earlier as well. But, today, would that be a good thing? We ahve to ask, today, is a 17-19 year old matured, fully grown?

now, I don't support an effort to retard their growth. Only that factually, they are not likley fully deveolped, fully mature, full grown.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Perhaps, but those step backwards, reasonableor not, good or not, do create a reality. Women, for example, used to have chidlren younger than they do today overall. Married earlier as well. But, today, would that be a good thing? We ahve to ask, today, is a 17-19 year old matured, fully grown?

now, I don't support an effort to retard their growth. Only that factually, they are not likley fully deveolped, fully mature, full grown.

I can tell you that, at 18, I was so skinny I had to turn sidewise to cast a shadow, so no, I wasn't fully grown. I was still a dumb teenager who had no clue what to do with life, so, no I wasn't mature, either. Those are two different things, of course.

Lots off people are fully mature physically, even starting to show signs of middle age, but still haven't matured to the point of accepting responsibility for anything.

 

[Boo Radley]

I can tell you that, at 18, I was so skinny I had to turn sidewise to cast a shadow, so no, I wasn't fully grown. I was still a dumb teenager who had no clue what to do with life, so, no I wasn't mature, either. Those are two different things, of course.

Lots off people are fully mature physically, even starting to show signs of middle age, but still haven't matured to the point of accepting responsibility for anything.

I agree. But there is the matter of a legal line.

 

[Dittohead not!]

I agree. But there is the matter of a legal line.

Yes, legally an 18 year old is an adult, thus illustrating just one more way in which legality is at odds with reality. When I turned 18 back in 1960, the age was 21. I'm not so sure that a 21 year old is really "mature" either, but they tend to be a little more grown up.

 

[Mach]

mach, do you think a 17-19 year old is fully grown, fully mature?

I have no idea what fully grown or fully mature mean. Fully grown, must be a scientific way to plot maximize size out?
Fully mature, I have no idea what that means...do you mean sexually developed or "has a clue"? As everyone knows, there are people that literally live their entire lives without "maturing" in the adult sense. But compared to who? What's the point of the question?

There is absolutely nothing about goal setting and achievement (project management), or personal finance (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percentage, and an excel table) that requires anything that a 15 year old shouldn't be wholly prepared to master.

By 18 you're basically treated as an adult. Kids leave home, they often drink, start families, start careers, etc. If you don't want to prepare them for that, that's fine. I think it's appropriate to give them the tools to help them navigate that, more so than I think we should teach them to memorize the presidents. Just saying. And if they don't care, they have to pay a price. You can't insulate them from the negative consquences of refusing to be responsible. That in itself I consider to be irresponsible.

 

[cpwill]

No one is talking about requiring them to do so. It would be voluntary for those that wished to earn assistance for a college education.

:shrug: okay. I guess I got confused by the word "required" in your post:

On this we agree! That was my wife's idea years ago, require HS graduates serve their country for a couple years, either in military or civilian service to their country.

and just assumed that by "require", you meant.... "require"


But I agree - the GI Bill is an excellent way to strengthen our military and our civilian populace.

 

[cpwill]

Yes, legally an 18 year old is an adult, thus illustrating just one more way in which legality is at odds with reality. When I turned 18 back in 1960, the age was 21. I'm not so sure that a 21 year old is really "mature" either, but they tend to be a little more grown up.

i would tend to suspect that more 18 year olds were more mature then than today's 21 year olds.

 

[Catawba]

:shrug: okay. I guess I got confused by the word "required" in your post:



and just assumed that by "require", you meant.... "require"


But I agree - the GI Bill is an excellent way to strengthen our military and our civilian populace.

You have combined two different plans I was discussing. My wife's idea was to require service to the country (militarily or community service) for two years before college. Obama's plan is a voluntary option for those that seek college aid and don't wish to join the military.

 

[Boo Radley]

Yes, legally an 18 year old is an adult, thus illustrating just one more way in which legality is at odds with reality. When I turned 18 back in 1960, the age was 21. I'm not so sure that a 21 year old is really "mature" either, but they tend to be a little more grown up.

Agreed. I would think theses ages should be more in line with when we actually mature phyiscally, emotionally. Based on science.

 

[Boo Radley]

I have no idea what fully grown or fully mature mean. Fully grown, must be a scientific way to plot maximize size out?
Fully mature, I have no idea what that means...do you mean sexually developed or "has a clue"? As everyone knows, there are people that literally live their entire lives without "maturing" in the adult sense. But compared to who? What's the point of the question?

There is absolutely nothing about goal setting and achievement (project management), or personal finance (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percentage, and an excel table) that requires anything that a 15 year old shouldn't be wholly prepared to master.

By 18 you're basically treated as an adult. Kids leave home, they often drink, start families, start careers, etc. If you don't want to prepare them for that, that's fine. I think it's appropriate to give them the tools to help them navigate that, more so than I think we should teach them to memorize the presidents. Just saying. And if they don't care, they have to pay a price. You can't insulate them from the negative consquences of refusing to be responsible. That in itself I consider to be irresponsible.

I mean something more scienctific. The brain is usually not fully developed until your in your mid 20's. If this is so, then can we really expect maturity across the board before ful brain development? We see a lot of poor decisions from 18 year olds. Not that we see it from all of them, but in large enough numbers that we're certainly not surprised when one acts foolish. This may well be in part because they have not fully developed. So, while we should not excuse stupidity and poor decisions at 18 in all cases, we certainly might plan for and expect them.

 

[Mach]

I mean something more scienctific. The brain is usually not fully developed until your in your mid 20's. If this is so, then can we really expect maturity across the board before ful brain development? We see a lot of poor decisions from 18 year olds. Not that we see it from all of them, but in large enough numbers that we're certainly not surprised when one acts foolish. This may well be in part because they have not fully developed. So, while we should not excuse stupidity and poor decisions at 18 in all cases, we certainly might plan for and expect them.

Oh good lord credit card debt is genetic, it's not their fault. **** a duck I can't believe you are arguing that. My head exploded.